tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post8554530286424437876..comments2024-03-27T11:55:27.988+00:00Comments on Bessler's Wheel and the Orffyreus Code: Could scientists solve Bessler's wheel - or will it be an amateur?John Collinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13274781515636883957noreply@blogger.comBlogger80125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-69462947714291567242012-12-21T11:58:54.322+00:002012-12-21T11:58:54.322+00:00"Tg, your tracks will take's you to the c..."Tg, your tracks will take's you to the cliff..."<br /><br />Time will tell, vincent. I do know that I am now beginning to work on a design that I have never tried before because I did not previously have the clues or their interpretations that would have led me to it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this will, finally, be IT. But, if not, then, perhaps, a little bit of modification will do the trick, but that would have to wait until after the holidays. Be nice, though, if the rediscovery could officially take place on Christmas Day as a tribute to the Master and acknowledgement of his strong religious beliefs.technoguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-3758678139086887452012-12-21T07:01:36.678+00:002012-12-21T07:01:36.678+00:00Tg,your tracks will take's you to the cliff,ma...Tg,your tracks will take's you to the cliff,maybe you should start rethink your methods to achieve your goal.I am still working on my device (physical),like i said before, it is not a wheel, and i have no illusions, i just keep working on it,the problem is the amount of things combined,it will take long time to go throughout all the combinations.vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04478870625877776990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-15455502828116514032012-12-21T04:51:29.047+00:002012-12-21T04:51:29.047+00:00Well, I just completed about an hour of motor assi...Well, I just completed about an hour of motor assisted testing of my latest "85 Degree 7:30 / Contact AFTER 3:00" 4:1 scale computer model wheel which I previously referred to as my "detour" wheel design. As I had expected the test results were very disappointing.<br /><br />Again, the "Bessler Effect" could only be produced very late in the 45 degree interval of drum rotation and, even then, only if I made the k values of the primary springs attached to the weighted levers so high that it actually kept the weights pinned against their rim stops as the levers' pivots approached the drum's 7:30 position. The start of interval horizontal projection of the CoM of the design's eight 1 ounce lead weights onto the descending side was only 0.14000 inches away from a vertical line passing through the center of the axle and, after rotation commenced, quickly sank to the punctum quietus and then over to the ascending side of the wheel.<br /><br />This failure has FINALLY convinced me that the "Contact AFTER 3:00" type wheel design is NOT the one that Bessler used. Hereafter, I will be focusing exclusively upon the "Contact BEFORE 3:00" type designs.<br /><br />My next design to try was going to be a "Contact BEFORE 3:00" type in which the weighted lever at the 7:30 drum position was rotated 10 degrees CW away from a VERTICAL line passing through the lever's pivot. Using my nomenclature system, this would have been referred to as a "80 Degree 7:30 / Contact BEFORE 3:00" wheel design since the 7:30 weighted lever can also be considered to be rotated about its pivot CCW by 80 degrees from a HORIZONTAL line passing through the lever's pivot.<br /><br />However, I have recently been spending more than the usual amount of time with the two DT portraits and, incredibly, I've managed to locate TWO additional clues in the second portrait that SEEM to indicate that the 7:30 weighted levers inside of Bessler's wheels were actually rotated 15 degrees CW away from a vertical line passing through their levers' pivots! So, in order to save as much time as possible since these modifications require redesigning my "magic" levers, I've decided to skip the construction of the "80 Degree 7:30 / Contact BEFORE 3:00" wheel design and go straight to a "75 Degree 7:30 / Contact BEFORE 3:00" wheel design (in this case the weighted levers can also be considered to rotated 75 degrees CCW about their pivots from a horizontal line passing through their pivots). If the "Bessler Effect" can not be produced early in the interval with this design, then, obviously, it would not have been produced by the skipped design either.<br /><br />An early indication that this "75 Degree 7:30 / Contact BEFORE 3:00" wheel design is THE one will be the quick static test I use to determine the horizontal projection of its weights' CoM onto the wheel's descending side. Any distance over 0.20000 inches will be a VERY "good" sign. If I get 0.25000 inches or greater, I will dance in the street outside of my home! LOL!<br /><br />I should be able to have the modified "magic" levers "crafted" and this design using them completely "built" and tested BEFORE this Tuesday, December 25th which, of course, is Christmas Day and observed by over a billion Christians globally. This would have been a VERY important holiday for Bessler and he would have made allowances for it in his work and research schedules. IF a GREAT deal of luck is with me, then I just MIGHT be able to make a REALLY important announcement HERE on Christmas Day of the 300th Anniversary of the public demonstration of Bessler's Gera wheel!technoguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-9987688599380730082012-12-20T23:49:09.891+00:002012-12-20T23:49:09.891+00:00@ R
Thanks for the material on this device. To b...@ R<br /><br />Thanks for the material on this device. To bad we can't post images here, though, since that would make it easier to see how this device worked. I can assure everyone here that the "right track" design I am working on is NOT the same as what is described except for having weights on levers that are carried by a wheel around its axle.<br /><br />Basically, this is yet another example of the MANY bogus PM machines that were constructed by clockmakers over the centuries (why do so many of them automatically assume that they should be able to duplicate Bessler's achievement?!). If one takes such a bogus device and disassembles it, it will be seen that the "motive wheel" is, in reality, only BEING driven by the clock part and NOT the other way around as one is led to expect by viewing the assembled device in operation. Somewhere in the clock part there will be a hidden source of energy / mass which is usually a tightly coiled mainspring cleverly concealed within the base of the device.technoguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-54234674961300722092012-12-20T23:38:29.090+00:002012-12-20T23:38:29.090+00:00Trevor wrote: "...Even Bessler commented that...Trevor wrote: "...Even Bessler commented that it looked nothing like a wheel inside."<br /><br />The "right track" design I continue to work on does NOT look "like a wheel" inside. Rather, it is just a collection of 8 weighted levers whose configuration is maintained by the interconnecting cords and tensioning springs attached to the weighted levers. When all parts are PRECISELY counter balanced against each other, this configuration will "persist" (relative to an outside observer, that is) despite the rotation of the wheel and keep its weights' CoM always located on the wheel's descending side. It's almost as though the 8 weights were moving along INVISIBLE tracks within the wheel that both guided and supported them!<br /> <br /><br />Zoelra wrote: "Your build is influenced as much by your interpretation of the clues as the clues themselves. There is a change [should be "chance"] that you could actually come up with a runner that is not Bessler design, and you won't even know it."<br /><br />That's the whole idea! The reverse engineering Bessler mobilist who strives to complete his journey down the "right track" to successful rediscovery of Bessler's secret OB PM gravity wheel design and the two DT portraits must enter into a bizarre "feedback loop" with each other wherein test results influence clue interpretations and clue interpretations influence future designs to be tested. Eventually, this "dance" will spiral down to a PARTICULAR design and THAT design will be THE one!<br /><br />The clues are so many in the portraits that it would seem to me that the chance of deriving anything other than Bessler's design from them with structural features that agreed with ALL of clues would be EXTREMELY small. I'm not really worried about that happening. IF I find a working design based on the portrait clues, then it will be Bessler's as far as I am concerned.technoguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-87864825906409647482012-12-20T22:36:09.728+00:002012-12-20T22:36:09.728+00:00@Trevor
Can you be more specific as to Bessler...@Trevor<br /><br />Can you be more specific as to Bessler's comment regarding the wheel not looking like a wheel on the inside.Zoelrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13243774767540915176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-18886256825466334422012-12-20T16:24:36.972+00:002012-12-20T16:24:36.972+00:00@ Zoelra
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtop...@ Zoelra<br />http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3886<br />Several very interesting examples here.<br />Regards R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-73551671157702032402012-12-20T14:50:58.370+00:002012-12-20T14:50:58.370+00:00@R
Can you share where you found this information...@R<br /><br />Can you share where you found this information?Zoelrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13243774767540915176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-16155332269976223162012-12-20T11:57:50.388+00:002012-12-20T11:57:50.388+00:00The following seems to have similarities to TG'...The following seems to have similarities to TG's design:<br /><br />Within a glass case about the size of a common Yankee Clock, is held a brass wheel and its adjuncts composing the machine. The motive power is gravitation, operating upon weights thrown off from one side of the wheel. Leaden weights slide along the circumference of the wheel; to each of these is attached an arm, occupied with a brass bar, in such a manner as to throw out the bar with a brass weight attached to the extreme end, unfolding these bars in turn, much as if the hand that had been held drawn up to the shoulder, were thrown outward from the body by the straightening of the elbow joint, the extended clenched fist occupying the position of the brass weight. The brass weights carry their side of the wheel downward, and as each leaden weight, which had slidden forward and downward upon its passing the vertical point, passes the opposite point below, past which it is carried by the gravitation of the brass weights, it slides or falls back, and this movement in turn moves the inner end of the bar to which the brass weight is attached, in such a manner as to cause the weight to fold themselves up. This position they occupy with the circumference of the wheel until again the leaden weight passes the vertical joint, and they are in turn acted upon from the wheel as before. A cord passing around the shank of this lower motive wheel, is carried over a wheel above, carrying what may be called the escapement works of a clock with a pendulum. The pendulum, and the motive wheel below will continue its revolutions; stop the motive wheel below, and the pendulum above stops, showing that the motive power lies in the wheel with its weights below, and not in the works above. Loosen the cord that passes over the shank of the motive wheel below and carries the works above, and at once the motion of the large wheel below is accelerated, constantly increasing in speed with its own revolutions, and throwing off the weight with a rapidity and force that, unchecked, would cause the machine to tear itself into pieces. The inventor finds it necessary to keep the cord quite tight around the shank of the great wheel, in order to prevent his machine, when in motion, from destroying itself by the mere force of its own propelling power.<br />Regards R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-81303049026664487052012-12-20T05:46:52.213+00:002012-12-20T05:46:52.213+00:00TG,..Even Bessler commented that it looked nothing...TG,..Even Bessler commented that it looked nothing like a wheel inside.<br />The round casing was there just to hide and protect the mechanism from dust.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-34677571615532371752012-12-20T05:09:11.986+00:002012-12-20T05:09:11.986+00:00"...when the drawings were found they consist..."...when the drawings were found they consisted of a pile of 141 loose papers...<br /><br />Thanks for clearing that up for me, John. For some reason I've always thought that Bessler's widow found the actual woodcut printing plates containing the illustrations and that the drawings we have were made from them. It sounds from your description that Bessler did not make it that far. <br /><br />Well, thankfully, when he was destroying the portions of MT that showed his WORKING design for an OB PM gravity wheel, he did not destroy the entire work! technoguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-72235072836458449022012-12-20T04:51:12.328+00:002012-12-20T04:51:12.328+00:00Sadly, the "right track" is, as I've...Sadly, the "right track" is, as I've often lamented, not a straight express highway to success, but, rather, more like a narrow, curving, treacherous dirt road with MANY dead ends and traps CAREFULLY placed along its length. The Master made SURE that was the route that anybody trying to extract the CORRECT details of his secret wheel mechanism from the two DT portraits would have to travel. Unfortunately, there is really no better alternative method to use IF one wants to finally resurrect THE "simple" wheel design that Bessler found and used. <br /><br />Yes, some lucky mobilist MIGHT, just based upon the NON-portrait clues, hit upon THE design Bessler used just as he might also correctly quess all of the numbers that will be selected in the next drawing of his state's or country's national lottery. Using the DT portrait clues, IMO, GREATLY reduces the odds that one must "overcome" to achieve success in finding Bessler's design...sort of like going from playing a state's "Pick 6 Lotto" game (where one must correctly select the 6 numbers that will be drawn from a "field" of about 49 numbers) to playing a "daily" numbers game in which one need only correctly select one number from a thousand.<br /><br />I have been hoping that by THIS Christmas I would be able to give each and every mobilist out there (even if I DON'T like him!) a nice little brightly wrapped gift in the form of an announcement on THIS blog, JC's own, that, finally, the Bessler wheel mystery has been SOLVED and then proceeding to "prove" it by releasing a video clip of the simulation of a virtual wheel using the design. Toward those goals, I have been working at about double my normal rate of designing and testing so that I could play Santa Claus to the mobilists of PM land on Christmas day. Imagine of being able to anticipate starting the New Year by constructing a design that a glitch-free computer model shows WILL work!<br /><br />Well, it might all still happen that way and I will, of course, be doing my best to make it so. <br /><br />At this point in time, I am confident that my basic "right track" wheel design IS correct, but that there are still some problems with it involving the weighted levers with pivots at the 7:30, 9:00, and 10:30 positions that are preventing them from displaying the "Bessler Effect" EARLY in a 45 degree interval of drum rotation. If those problems can be resolved, then success WILL follow. <br /><br />I will have to just keep "building" and testing while analyzing the two DT portraits and also PRAYING that I will be THE luckiest post-Bessler / Asa Jackson mobilist who ever lived!technoguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-82567090189717075822012-12-20T00:53:18.485+00:002012-12-20T00:53:18.485+00:00Nah, the Right Track is more like a broken record ...Nah, the Right Track is more like a broken record than a wheel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-13362876063436398482012-12-19T23:44:33.312+00:002012-12-19T23:44:33.312+00:00The right track must be in the shape of a wheel.The right track must be in the shape of a wheel.Dougnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-34405818750543734442012-12-19T23:13:27.757+00:002012-12-19T23:13:27.757+00:00In my last comment I wrote:
"However, someth...In my last comment I wrote:<br /><br />"However, something is telling me to first try the current magic lever with a design whose weights make contact with their rim stops AFTER their levers' pivots pass the wheel's 3:00 position."<br /><br />I'm happy to report that this "85 Degree 7:30 / Contact AFTER 3:00" 4:1 scale model wheel is now finished and, indeed, was rather easy to make.<br /><br />I have not yet had the time to do any "motor assisted" tests with this little "detour" design, but shall try to accomplish that later today if possible. I did, however, do one quick static test of the design and was not too pleased with it. It shows that the horizontal component of the CoM's location projects only 0.14000 inches onto the wheel's descending side from a vertical line passed through the center of the axle. That was a LOT less than I was expecting (remember, I'm shooting for 0.25000 inches because, when scaled up to that of the full sized Merseburg wheel, it would provide an axle torque in the range of what that large 12 diameter wheel possessed).<br /><br />If this detour design, once again, fails to produce the "Bessler Effect", then it will be time to return to the "Contact BEFORE 3:00" designs and see what are the effects of incrementally inclining the 7:30 weighted lever away from a vertical line passed through its pivot. I know that such an inclination allows the 7:30 going to 9:00 position weighted lever to deliver more gravitational energy / mass to the weighted levers that lead it which is a "good" thing. However, I dread what the effect of the increasing inclination will have on the location of the design's CoM.<br /><br />When one really gets "into" reverse engineering Bessler's wheels, he eventually becomes aware that the smallest change in the shape or orientation of a weighted lever may have one of three effects: it makes matters worse, has no significant effect, or makes matters better. Thus, one develops a sense as he goes along of whether he is straying from the "right track", making no progress on it, or, joyously, moving along that track in the "right" direction and toward eventual success.<br /><br />This detour momentarily took me OFF of the "right track" and, consequently, I will no longer be using the "Contact AFTER 3:00" wheel designs. And, besides, there seem to be MORE clues in the DT portraits indicating that weight to rim stop contact took place BEFORE 3:00 than after 3:00 and those clues are a LOT more difficult to locate and interpret. That seems to me like they are more probably valid because of the effort Bessler went to hide them.<br /><br />To be continued... <br /><br />technoguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-55974260493890327482012-12-19T22:47:04.496+00:002012-12-19T22:47:04.496+00:00@ Mark
Unlike YOU, I was trying to save Trevor fr...@ Mark<br /><br />Unlike YOU, I was trying to save Trevor from going down a design route that I know, from PERSONAL experience, will only be a dead end for him. I might be a "jerk" sometimes in your opinion, but, IMO, YOU are one MOST of the time!technoguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-55956382941291684572012-12-19T19:18:34.429+00:002012-12-19T19:18:34.429+00:00Yes you are right of course but when the springs a...Yes you are right of course but when the springs are suficient there is always a reactive bounce to help it over the apex. Also remember it's weight is partly balanced out by the weight it has to lift to prime for the next cycle.<br />I'm not sure that this is the system that Bessler used because it requires two weights to do the over-balancing and two weights of equal mass to do the priming and that is only for one pair of weights.<br />Bessler had four pairs so if you add the priming weights as well that would total 16 weights altogether.<br />This wheel would be quite heavy but it does eliminate the keeling of the wheel and at the same time it's weight would give it a smooth flywheel action.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-91352091249696455432012-12-19T18:00:55.678+00:002012-12-19T18:00:55.678+00:00@Trevor,
"springs come in handy because they ...@Trevor,<br />"springs come in handy because they can keep these balanced weights in a neutral balanced position"<br />I like the idea Trevor, but if these weights are held in a neutral position by springs, won't they always rest slightly BELOW a neutral position, because gravity is pulling them down? I can't quite see how they can return to a neutral position, because as soon as you allow them the capability of movement they will always gravitate to a slightly below neutral position. Unless I have misunderstood you. I would much appreciate your thoughts on this point.<br />Regards R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-80911734573055769372012-12-19T17:58:53.445+00:002012-12-19T17:58:53.445+00:00@Trevor,
"springs come in handy because they ...@Trevor,<br />"springs come in handy because they can keep these balanced weights in a neutral balanced position"<br />I like the idea Trevor, but if these weights are held in a neutral position by springs, won't they always rest slightly BELOW a neutral position, because gravity is pulling them down? I can't quite see how they can return to a neutral position, because as soon as you allow them the capability of movement they will always gravitate to a slightly below neutral position. Unless I have misunderstood you. I would much appreciate your thoughts on this point.<br />Regards R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-68020814148917857122012-12-19T16:15:43.203+00:002012-12-19T16:15:43.203+00:00You're welcome Anon,..its good to get some int...You're welcome Anon,..its good to get some intelligent interaction in response to the mechanical configuration of the wheel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-5821729687115322172012-12-19T16:10:14.920+00:002012-12-19T16:10:14.920+00:00You're welcome Anon,..It's good to get som...You're welcome Anon,..It's good to get some intelligent interaction in response to the mechanical configuration of the wheel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-40224906358272635212012-12-19T14:05:30.342+00:002012-12-19T14:05:30.342+00:00@ Trevor
Sorry if I asked too many questions, I wa...@ Trevor<br />Sorry if I asked too many questions, I was merely trying to get a clearer picture of what you might have accomplished. For all I knew, congratulations were in order. I'll just wait for your declaration of success for that.<br /><br />@ Technoguy<br />Way to barge into a into conversation, Ken. Like, you don't know which Reply box to use? Sometimes you can be such a jerk.<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-52365052181694663242012-12-19T07:03:01.087+00:002012-12-19T07:03:01.087+00:00John, regarding the title of MT, I should point ou...John, regarding the title of MT, I should point out that when the drawings were found they consisted of a pile of 141 loose papers and one of them had the lower case words ‘further demonstrations regarding the possibility and impossibility of perpetual motion’. To me that looks like a note about the drawings, to a subsequent finder. No upper case letters were used and it looks like a hastily scribbled note. If you look at any of his later drawings and writings all of it is designed to inform the reader is laid out properly with eleborate headings etc. <br /><br />JCJohn Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13274781515636883957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-87123919422740877072012-12-19T06:09:12.458+00:002012-12-19T06:09:12.458+00:00Just finished the testing of my current "85 D...Just finished the testing of my current "85 Degree 7:30 / Contact BEFORE 3:00" 4:1 scale model wheel. The results are "mixed", but, generally, "bad". Here's what happened:<br /><br />I started with the scale model's 1.5 inch (unstretched) primary springs stretched 0.25 inches and having a spring constant or k value = 1.25000 lbs / in. (corresponding to a stretch of 1 inch and k value of 20 lbs / in. in the full size Merseburg wheel). After a 45 degree interval of wheel rotation, there was NO smooth lifting of the 9:00 going to 10:30 position weighted lever's weight taking place and, hence, NO "Bessler Effect" being displayed.<br /><br />Undaunted, I increased the model's primary spring k value to 1.5625 lbs / in. (corresponding to 25 lbs / in. for the full size Merseburg wheel) and still NO "Bessler Effect".<br /><br />Finally, when the model's primary springs were adjusted to k = 1.8750 lbs / in. (or 30 lbs / in. in the full size Merseburg wheel), the "Bessler Effect" occurred!<br /><br />BUT, although I saw the desired effect, it occurred VERY late in the 45 degree increment of wheel rotation and, worst of all, the high k value of the primary springs prevented the 6:00 going to 7:30 position weighted lever from parting company with its rim stop! Needless to say, this had a disasterous effect on the location of the CoM of the model's eight 1 ounce weights which quickly rotated over to the wheel's ascending side until the "Bessler Effect" finally occurred at which time it flew back to the punctum quietus, but not onto the descending side of the model wheel.<br /><br />So, once again, I must deem this design to be a failure. However, I did note that, as the last k value produced the "Bessler Effect", the late interval shiftings of the 7:30 going to 9:00 position and 9:00 going to 10:30 position weighted levers were smooth and precise and this indicates that the connecting cords between these two levers have the correct lengths and are attached to the levers at the correct points on them.<br /><br />My next attempt was going to be the "construction" of a "Contact BEFORE 3:00" wheel that would have the 7:30 position weighted lever rotated CW about its pivot 10 degrees from a vertical line passing through its pivot (a so-called "80 Degree 7:30 / Contact BEFORE 3:00" model wheel) which, as I previously mentioned, requires another "magic" lever shape modification to be made.<br /><br />However, something is telling me to first try the current magic lever with a design whose weights make contact with their rim stops AFTER their levers' pivots pass the wheel's 3:00 position. This should be fairly easy to do since it does not require modifying my present "magic" lever design. I'll get to work on it as soon as possible.<br /><br />To be continued...technoguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-32652355670062757572012-12-19T05:23:08.119+00:002012-12-19T05:23:08.119+00:00I think I'd have to see a sketch of what you a...I think I'd have to see a sketch of what you are trying to do before I can comment on it further.<br /><br />I agree that all "flip over frame" type PM machines have bi-lateral symmetry or, at least, the one's shown in MT do. But, as far as Bessler's wheels were concerned, once one got inside of their drums, there was no bi-lateral symmetry present no matter which direction one passed a dividing plane through the centers of their axles! technoguynoreply@blogger.com