tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post8710261781122204453..comments2024-03-27T11:55:27.988+00:00Comments on Bessler's Wheel and the Orffyreus Code: Gravity - or the force of heaviness.John Collinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13274781515636883957noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-86826399426156212072013-06-16T14:56:41.918+01:002013-06-16T14:56:41.918+01:00Oh well, nothing ventured as you say..!
Yester...Oh well, nothing ventured as you say..! <br /><br />Yesterday i built MT143 (such that it is) - i wanted to check that the beam was in equilibrium, and not just the weights....<br /><br />It was. :(<br /><br />At least i checked for myself though... it's an interesting design because the shift energy is both counter-balanced (by pairs of counter-rotating levers), and also only works while descending linearly (thus without rotating the shift lever angles) - hence the shift energy is effectively decoupled from any overbalance. If there was any. Which there isn't.<br /><br />In fact, there IS overbalance; not on the parallelogram, where we want it, but on the net system including the stand. So i added a brace and central pivot to the parallelogram, to allow it to rotate, just to follow the line of enquiry to its inevitable conclusion - obviously, this freedom allows the lever angles to rotate from horizontal to vertical, eliminating their ability to counter-balance eachother... full stop, period, end of the line, everyone off..!<br /><br />Next!Vibratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175744698320817417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-57213524699712998072013-06-15T21:00:54.564+01:002013-06-15T21:00:54.564+01:00Sorry, big scale, big fail,
the idea was to put a ...Sorry, big scale, big fail,<br />the idea was to put a section of wood the same shape as the dark sections of the Apologia wheel on the ends of the beam, then link them pantograph style.<br />That way, when the sections lean to the left, the section on the left places its weight further from the centre, and the section on the right places its weight nearer the centre.<br />And of course, vice-versa.<br />When the sections are moved manually, everything works perfect, but of course trying to get it to do it itself is another thing !<br />Oh well, at least I got splinters from actually doing something this time. :-DSTEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-45492085265923101132013-06-14T23:51:33.855+01:002013-06-14T23:51:33.855+01:00That's what i love about this quest; you rarel...That's what i love about this quest; you rarely hit an absolute dead end, every idea has ten more sprouting off of it. Any dullard could look at a circle and claim the total PE is its height, and that's that. But some of us can draw a circle and see an infinity of tantalising possibilities inside.. and there's just not enough hours in a day!<br /><br />Keep it up eh...<br /><br />Vibratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175744698320817417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-5533586738655897582013-06-14T20:39:03.858+01:002013-06-14T20:39:03.858+01:00@ Vibrator, and anyone else who's interested,
...@ Vibrator, and anyone else who's interested,<br />I've had a tinker with my test rig, and it appears that the fixed weight doesn't produce enough leverage to operate my toggle idea.<br />However, I have a very simple but sneaky idea I'm going to try on a full scale build.<br />Nothing elaborate, just a 12ft. piece of 2x4, and some dumb-bell weights.<br />Anyway, nothing ventured, nothing gained.STEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-33048278303081223052013-06-14T06:21:46.772+01:002013-06-14T06:21:46.772+01:00True!
JCTrue!<br /><br />JCJohn Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13274781515636883957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-3880968369780962462013-06-13T18:22:57.349+01:002013-06-13T18:22:57.349+01:00I believe you're right Trevor. In 1997 in my ...I believe you're right Trevor. In 1997 in my book, "Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?" - I wrote, "The second [type of] wheel was also different to the first type because it remained stationary once it had been stopped. It did not need to be secured. To start it, it required a gentle push, after which it accelerated to its maximum speed. Orffyreus was right to construct this new version, even though there is evidence that it was not as powerful as the other earlier models."<br /><br />JCJohn Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13274781515636883957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-22525850346415685982013-06-13T08:00:07.126+01:002013-06-13T08:00:07.126+01:00John, In the light of how my build is going, it...John, In the light of how my build is going, it's my opinion that Bessler's two way wheels would not have been as powerful as the singles.<br />The reason being that he would have had to comprimise on space and directionallity.<br />Just a thought.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12409874937563133478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-73507635306549364452013-06-13T01:07:53.807+01:002013-06-13T01:07:53.807+01:00John,
it's a pity your sons in law didn't ...John,<br />it's a pity your sons in law didn't have two of those, instead of the normal type,<br />you might have had some garage space to experiment in. :-DSTEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-28245344112042306122013-06-12T21:51:41.557+01:002013-06-12T21:51:41.557+01:00P.S.
the toggle would of course be fitted to the o...P.S.<br />the toggle would of course be fitted to the opposite end of the beam to the fixed weight, causing the beam to overbalance/underbalance ( did I just invent that word, spellchecker says so ?) :-DSTEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-41466175804751818732013-06-12T21:10:18.318+01:002013-06-12T21:10:18.318+01:00@ Vibrator,
looks like me, you and John are the Th...@ Vibrator,<br />looks like me, you and John are the Three Besslerteers at the moment!<br />I've probably let the cat stick its head out of the bag already so here goes.<br />My idea for a ramp that changes the angle of the main beam is like this :-<br />Imagine holding a toggle switch in your right hand with the lever up.<br />Make a "C" with your left hand using thumb and index finger.<br />Place the switch toggle between the two.<br />Move the switch up until the toggle touches your index finger, SNAP! it flips down.<br />Move the switch down until the toggle touches your thumb, SNAP! it flips up.<br />A piece of pipe, or ramp replaces the toggle arm, with the ball/cylinder free to roll inside.<br />A small piece of spring steel, tensioned just right would give the toggle action,just like those cheap 1/4 in. drive pressed steel socket handles you get at boot fairs.<br />Not as grandiose as your idea, but it is carpenter's boy simple.<br />Fix a wheel, steam engine style, via a connecting rod, and there you go !STEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-66942427025707579472013-06-12T14:51:17.006+01:002013-06-12T14:51:17.006+01:00@Stevo - i like the rolling ramp idea, very nice l...@Stevo - i like the rolling ramp idea, very nice line of thought and something i'll be chewing over, well done..! Be fascinating to see how it bears out..<br /><br />I've also ended up drawing rather more swastikas than usual, seems to be a consequence of trying to find linear paths in a rotating frame, but my Yiddeshe mamma must be rolling in her grave..! I was almost relieved when the last one failed..<br /><br />And yes, the whole beauty and allure of horizontal overbalancing is that it does the same job as a vertical motion, while (hopefully) obviating some degree of actual lift..<br /><br />FWIW last night i had a new dash of inspiration - big wire braces connecting cylindrical weights, as in MT40 and 42. The idea would be that the brace could be lifted from the 7 o'clock position a short distance, maybe an inch or so, to hang from the 1 o'clock position instead - so that a small diagonal lift shifts the effective weight from being borne at 7 o'clock to being borne at 1 o'clock. Each 180° rotation it gets lifted again, hopefully a disproportionate shift vs RKE. This could be done via the axle, like the stampers in the Merseburg illustrations. 7 o'clock is an ideal underbalancing position, and 1 o'clock ideal for overbalancing...<br /><br />Errant nonsense no doubt, but it's all in the thrill of the chase eh...Vibratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175744698320817417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-48105667460229255462013-06-12T06:51:30.838+01:002013-06-12T06:51:30.838+01:00Thanks Stevo. I liked the two wheel/three wheel b...Thanks Stevo. I liked the two wheel/three wheel bike you can change mode on the move. Crazy!<br /><br />JCJohn Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13274781515636883957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-43907590775924892372013-06-12T00:41:59.363+01:002013-06-12T00:41:59.363+01:00John,
here's something just for a laugh, Googl...John,<br />here's something just for a laugh, Google Dicycles, and click on the images.<br />Yes Dicycles NOT bicycles.<br />Do you reckon two Bessler's wheels would do the same thing !STEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-399830408493490852013-06-11T19:29:28.332+01:002013-06-11T19:29:28.332+01:00P.S.
The clock mechanism can be seen at,
www.doug...P.S.<br />The clock mechanism can be seen at,<br /><br />www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/oddclocks.htmSTEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-80260417721952613932013-06-11T19:04:16.386+01:002013-06-11T19:04:16.386+01:00@ Vibrator,
thanks for the reply, believe it or no...@ Vibrator,<br />thanks for the reply, believe it or not I got most of it!<br />I once saw a clock that had a mercury filled swastika as its mechanism, and once heated on one side, the mercury expanded and flowed to the next leg to produce rotation.<br />I was thinking along those lines for the shot vials.<br />Needless to say, I think the clock was made in Nazi Germany !<br />I'm actually toying with a single rocking beam idea at the moment, using a fixed weight at one end, and weight that rolls down, once it's lifted to its full height.<br />That would be outward, not inward of course, thereby increasing its leverage over the fixed weight, and then when at the bottom rolls downward but inward, decreasing its leverage, and of course, rising again, repeating the cycle.<br />Mum threw out the Meccano years ago, but there's plenty of scrap wood from some recent renovations to the house, and I have experimented with the principle, and it works, as all good scales should.<br />The direction changing part I'll keep a secret for now, but that's the horizontal retraction/expansion you was talking about, is it not ?STEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-48401952057203818702013-06-11T15:27:24.091+01:002013-06-11T15:27:24.091+01:00QRT QSU, radio ham codes/slangQRT QSU, radio ham codes/slangUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13763266729968085539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-2377437998735458372013-06-11T03:15:23.161+01:002013-06-11T03:15:23.161+01:00It's another variation on "shift energy&q...It's another variation on "shift energy" vs RKE - assuming the bar was level then any KE added to the shot is subtracted from that of the pendulum. Presumably if it then rotates. all of the shot will fall to the bottom and then need relifting..?<br /><br /><br />A system that successfully decouples shift energy from any resulting rotational kinetic energy might satisfy various conditions:<br /><br /> - if the shifted weights only extend and retract using horizontal (ie. off-vector) motions, and also only do so while falling, then their operation is thermodynamically free and only entropic losses apply.. obviously there's no causal relationship between "shift friction" and RKE hence calorimetry will show this system to be OU even if friction > RKE.<br /><br /> - if extending and retracting levers fall and lift in turn (or vice versa), or co-rotate or contra-rotate - in other words if their operation is equal, opposite and cyclical then they can counter-balance eachother, eliminating their cost of operation in a similar manner as previously. Another example here would be scissorjacks, mounted from their midsection with a weight at each end - only friction applies as the net change in height of the moving masses sums to zero.<br /><br /> - in much the same vein, we may try to counterbalance shift energy with sprung tension.<br /><br />These are just 3 variations on the same principle. They appear to be impossible in 2D (tho never say never eh) - i'm still working through the 3D variations.. But they're contenders because they're theoretically OU already - mathematically, because the input shift energy is less than the output rotational kinetic energy, in terms of net work done in either case. <br /><br />So i start with an abstract 'in principle' gain, then try to find a practical mechanism to fulfill it. The types of walls i then hit include torque being in the wrong direction, running out of vertical weights to reset horizontal ones, equally-opposing underbalancing gaps opening up from non-radial shifts intended to overbalance, etc. etc. - that same old pitfalls that bedevil all of us... But theoretically, i remain convinced there's gain to be had - if one of the above types of conditions can be met.<br /><br />Alternatively if such a mechanism's impossible i intend to find out as fully as possible why...<br /><br />My no. 1 tip for now is simply Meccano. Can't beat it for rapid prototyping... Vibratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175744698320817417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-23183495498184993202013-06-10T20:31:36.064+01:002013-06-10T20:31:36.064+01:00Er yeah,
I notice a slowing down of replies, I...Er yeah, <br />I notice a slowing down of replies, I'm not sure if they're bamboozled, or if people can't/won't sign in, anyway if you don't mind talking to a knuckle dragger, I'll have a go. :-D<br />Glossing over the bit in the middle, leaving just your nom de plume, and the youtube bits, I saw a video (that I can't seem to find again) of a guy at MIT, or some other suchlike institution, striking a metal bar, and it rang for ages like a tuning fork. <br />Now, thinking outside the box I wondered a few pendulums dangling inside a wheel could be made to strike such a bar, and then use the vibration to shake something like lead shot to one end of a container, thereby causing the wheel to overbalance.<br />Slow, yes.<br />Bessler, no.<br />Proof of PM, maybe.<br />Any thoughts ?STEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-64539926150333954902013-06-10T12:21:48.004+01:002013-06-10T12:21:48.004+01:00lol not sure a true MIB would have any reason to b...lol not sure a true MIB would have any reason to be so verbose.. but chillax, i'm just another hapless hack. I've a lifelong interest in classical symmetry breaks, and Bessler was brought to my attention about five years ago by our esteemed colleague here, Mr Frank Grimer, in discussions on the old Steorn forum.<br /><br />After validating Steorn's Orbo i realised all the forces were likely 'powered' (as the EM field must be, assuming CoE), and hence that other asymmetries may be possible. Around 2010 i realised translations antiparallel to a force vector were free (duh!) and that this general principle might be a route to a working OB wheel. In April this year i caught the bug bigtime, went into a manical building frenzy trying lots of different measurements, and right now i'm in a bit of a lull, considering my next options... So rest assured, if i scored a win i'd immediately shareware it with a YT vid and a paypal link for donations or somesuch.. with all due cred to JC and anyone else deserving...Vibratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175744698320817417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-55955753910612215792013-06-10T12:05:14.796+01:002013-06-10T12:05:14.796+01:00Obviously any attempt to eliminate a whole class o...Obviously any attempt to eliminate a whole class of exploits will be limited to the prescribed conditions, and so any such generalisations are just that. Maybe you're onto something, i couldn't say...<br /><br />What we can say with clarity though is that the form of the asymmetry may be gravitational, or inertial (incl. centrifugal/centripetal options). Those are the choices of symmetry break, and the latter i believe is much trickier that the former, but also more useful as it may also yield inertial propulsion.<br /><br />And, lastly, there's a distinction to be made between using say inertial forces to shift weights, which are then subject to gravitational effects, and actually breaking N3, in which unbalanced inertial forces are the prime mover. In other words a gravity wheel can use inertia, while remaining a 'gravity' rather than 'inertial' wheel, if you see what i mean - it is the type of force that performs the excess work that defines the type of symmetry break.. likewise, one might use gravity to shift weights in what is, regardless, an inertial asymmetry - in such a case the gravity field could be replaced with another force without changing the underlying nature of the exploit (ie. it'd still be an inertial motor, that happened to use gravity in an incidental manner).<br /><br />Just to confuse things further; as i've noted elsewhere, even IF the exploit is purely gravitational, i see no reason the gravitational force couldn't be replaced with a magnetic, or indeed inertial one... because it's the mechanism that achieves the asymmetry, rather than some material or gravity-exclusive effect. Vibratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175744698320817417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-28201420445852098412013-06-10T00:08:43.242+01:002013-06-10T00:08:43.242+01:00John,
after the article on suppression, I did begi...John,<br />after the article on suppression, I did begin to wonder ;-),<br />I've only just noticed Vibrator posting lately, it may be because of having to sign in now,<br />but his writing style is different than all the anons.<br />Could he be M.I.B ? :-DSTEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-31048190771359185032013-06-09T21:47:47.931+01:002013-06-09T21:47:47.931+01:00Thanks for the explanation, Stevo, I didn't kn...Thanks for the explanation, Stevo, I didn't know those radio codes.<br /><br />I haven't deleted any comments recently, Stevo. On the odd occasion when I do delete a comment if it has a reply to it, the reply gets deleted too, but I don't recall anything like that. I did delete some comments from CW that he had already removed and I was just tidying up. My apologies if I have accidentally deleted somethin of yours.<br /><br />JCJohn Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13274781515636883957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-12992641236963754942013-06-09T21:29:35.845+01:002013-06-09T21:29:35.845+01:00@ Vibrator,
yet another reply deleted, but John ha...@ Vibrator,<br />yet another reply deleted, but John has already replied to the drawing I sent him so it's a bit late to ask the question again.<br />Just in case you didn't see it I'll repeat it to satisfy your curiosity.<br /><br />If I understand you correctly, you mean that the batee and the batted would move apart from one and other, and then back again, but this action would not propel them the length of the spaceship.<br />What, if like Bessler, we made use of the force of gravity, and fixed pendulums to the ends of the axles, would we be in business ?<br /><br /> STEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-19285129960974223172013-06-09T21:18:02.046+01:002013-06-09T21:18:02.046+01:00Its the old radio Q codes John,
why the deletion o...Its the old radio Q codes John,<br />why the deletion of my reply to Vibrator?<br />I thought it was the M.I.B. at work or something.<br /><br />QRT = SHOULD I STOP TRANSMISSION ?<br /><br />QSU = SHOULD I CONTACT YOU ON ANOTHER FREQUENCY ? XXX.X KHz.<br /><br />The idea was a mechanical take on the Colombian Wheel Of Death,<br />Oh well, lets find my tweezers so I can do some more head scratching. STEVOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964126679652081755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4862207778089432835.post-553043979503690632013-06-09T20:59:22.084+01:002013-06-09T20:59:22.084+01:00I've no idea what your abbreviations mean, Ste...I've no idea what your abbreviations mean, Stevo, but if you're asking did I get your email, then yes I did, thanks. Interesting idea, but in my opinion I don't think it will work. I am fairly confident I have most of what Bessler designed, in my mind and I'm trying to get it made. That being so, I am unconvinced that your design bears any resemblance to Bessler's. Please don't be disappointed at my response, I'm not very receptive to other people's designs and tend to dismiss them, but that doesn't mean I'm right or that you are wrong. Keep working at it because I don't think I have come across that particular idea before. Well done.<br /><br />JCJohn Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13274781515636883957noreply@blogger.com