I've been asked this question many times - did Bessler use springs in his machine? My answer has always been the same, in my opinion ...no. He responds angrily and at length to Wagner's frequent suggestions,that springs were used. Bessler maintains in no uncertain terms that springs were not used in his machine. He states in Das Tri.... that "its motion depends neither on an external force or assistance, nor, especially, on any internal clockwork device of wheels and springs."
Consider Bessler's point of view; that particular suggestion coming from Wagner implies that some parts were wound up or clockwork. There is no other use for them that would fit in with what was, after all, a discreet accusation that Bessler was guilty of some fault, offence, or crime. In my opinion any research involving springs to wind up something in Bessler's wheel is a waste of time, in which case Bessler didn't use springs and he wasn't lying.
Having said that, the use of springs for other purposes is most definitely not ruled out. I have used them myself to dampen lateral sway in some very long levers I designed for use at one time. They may also be used to lessen the effect of impact in a falling weight or reduce the sound of its fall. Some have suggested using springs to delay a reaction caused by a falling weight and this may be true although I have not used it in that way. There are several different designs of springs that Bessler could have made use of.
Springs have been used in locks and padlocks since Roman and Viking times and probably earlier....it is no exaggeration to say that iron or steel springs are vital features of the lock’s technological development. Parts of the mechanisms just don’t work without springs.
So, a lock spring creates tension – which is usually what the key must displace in order to turn the bolt. Thus, springs store power to perform a task either now or later: pushing forward, holding back or softening a force. Springs have done this kind of work for nearly 2,000 years.
1. Simple plate spring. About 200 AD until the 17th century.
2. Ward springs. About 100 BC until the 19th century.
3. V-shaped plate springs. About 15th to 17th century.
4. Tumbler with plate spring. About 15th century.
5. Torque springs. About 17th century.
6. Compression springs. About 18th century.
7. Tension springs. About 19th century.
[Thanks again to wikipedia for the above information]
Bessler shows padlocks very clearly in some of his drawings. They required the presence of certain types of springs which were also used in both organs and guns too! So Bessler would have been very familiar with their various forms and uses. I thought these shapes might provide inspiration?
JC
Dear John,..I have to respectfully disagree with you there!
ReplyDeleteFirstly,the reason why Bessler reacted angrily,is because Wagner implied that springs were used to wind up the wheel or similarly weights on chains were used the wind up the wheel.We must take his remarks in context.
Bessler said he used springs but not as his detractors had implied.
Just a little while longer and you'll see the wheel will spring into life!
I also thought Bessler confirmed springs WERE used, but not used as in a clockwork device like a watch. So, did he or did he not say that springs were used? If he did why do you say not? Confused.
ReplyDeleteregards
Jon
I did not make this clear enough. My quote above was supposed to explain - Bessler 'states in Das Tri.... that "its motion depends neither on an external force or assistance, nor, especially, on any internal clockwork device of wheels and springs."'
ReplyDeleteI then said 'the use of springs for other purposes is most definitely not ruled out.' In other words, yes, I am saying that Bessler used springs but not in the way Wagner was suggesting.
Sorry if my intention got lost in the phrasing.
Springs in Bessler's wheels - yes, but not for winding something up inside.
That is why I included those spring shapes for inspiration.
JC
Do you think he could have uesd magnets.
DeleteJohn, I agree that it's well established that there were springs in Bessler's wheels. On page 79 of your book "Perpetual Motion..." you quote from Professor Wolff's account of 19 December 1715:--
ReplyDelete"When he [Bessler] put the wheel onto another support and reinstalled the weights in their previous positions, he pushed down on an iron spring that gave a loud noise as it expanded upwards."
Wolff always seemed to me to be a good, reliable witness.
@ JC
ReplyDeleteExcellent review of spring technology over the millenia.
Of course, Bessler, as a clock and organmaker, would have been thoroughly familiar with the different types of springs and their properties. Indeed, he was probably quite capable of making his own springs!
When he claims that his wheels did NOT use "springs", he refers, of course, to the use of the spiral or "torque" type springs such as the "mainsprings' found in the newly developed clock movements of his time. However, when he says that his wheels DID use springs, he is refering to the "torsional" or familiar helical coil spring. In fact one of the most important and obvious clues in DT clearly indicates that helical coil springs were used inside of his wheels.
HOW did he use the springs? Well, I'll share a bit more information with my fellow squirrels today because, if you are again bombarding JC with emails, it means that you have not been fed enough tasty nuts of late on this blog and are again on the verge of starvation! Here's a tidbit to keep you going:
Even after you finally discover the Connectedness Principle, you will find to your consternation that it STILL does not make the wheel run! That's right, even AFTER you've found the optimal "magic" lever design and ALL of the correct cord attachment points as well as cord lengths required by the Connectedness Principle that Bessler used to achieve near perfect lever "coordination", you will STILL not be able to keep the CoM of your wheel's 8 weights on the descending side during each 45° increment of drum rotation! How can that be you wonder?
The answer is that you must think of each complete rotation of one of Bessler's wheels as consisting of 8 sequential simultaneous adjustments of the drum's 6 available shiftable weighted levers (remember that the weights between 3:00 and 6:00 rest on their rim stops and are NOT available for shifting). Most importantly, EACH of these adjustments must be made to occur CONTINUOUSLY throughout the ENTIRE duration of each 45° increment of drum rotation IF you want the CoM of the 8 weights to remain on the drum's descendng side from one 45° increment of drum rotation to the next. This can ONLY be achieved through the careful application of spring tension to EACH of the wheel's 8 weighted levers. If your design does NOT contain 8 springs, then it will NEVER run! Write that last sentence down and hang it up over your shop bench or PC monitor and look at it every time before you begin to work on your wheel design.
The use of 8 helical or coil springs inside of each active one directional wheel is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to making the wheel work. There is NO way around this detail and I won't bore you all by describing how very long it took for me to finally get the full acceptance of this "minor" detail through my thick skull!
The springs inside of Bessler's wheels provided that extra little bit of torque during just the right time interval to the ascending side levers between 9:00 and 12:00 that was needed in order to make their weights move smoothly toward their rim stops during drum rotation. ONLY with this smoothly shifting action (which then affected all of the other 6 available shifting levers inside of the drum through the network of interconnecting cords) will the CoM of all 8 weights stay on a drum's descending side throughout a complete rotation.
Don't let anyone EVER tell you that Bessler's wheels did not use springs to achieve PM. Those people are not yet on the "right track" and if you listen to their "advice", you won't be either!
Regarding spring type #5 "Torque springs". About 17th century.:
ReplyDeleteIt is designed so the applied force twists the coil into a tighter spiral. A type of the coiled torsion spring is the watch spring, which is coiled into a FLAT spiral rather than a cylinder or cone. One end of the spring is at the center of the spiral, and the other is at its outer edge.
Regarding spring type #6. "Compression springs". About 18th century.:
In 1763 R. Tredwell was issued the first patent for this type of coil spring, British patent No. 792. This was the type as pictured as #6. The most important fact about this spring is that it did not exist when Bessler made his wheels from 1712 until his death in 1745.
Regarding type #7. "Tension springs". About 19th century.:
It did not exist when Bessler made his wheels.
Bessler only had available to him the spring types as John Collins shows above as types 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.
The good news is that we can use any of types 1 - 7.
Thank you anonymous.
ReplyDeleteJC
One spring type not yet mentioned is the constant-force spring. The modern version is the flat strip extension type, wound with an inherent curvature. In Bessler's time a constant force could be obtained with a fusee, a mechanism he would have known about.
ReplyDeleteThe modern constant force spring can be made into a motor, although of course not a perpetually running one. It also needs two drums. See http://www.sdp-si.com/Gateway/D220-T183.htm.
@ Anonymous
ReplyDeleteHow VERY wrong you are!
Helical coil springs like those of #6 AND #7 were BOTH available to Bessler when he made his wheels! For examples, #7's were used on his MT 17 wheel design and #6's were used on his MT 60 wheel design.
Beware of the "official" histories of various inventions that you read on the internet!
I have an illustration from 1702 that has a Compression spring like no.6 ?
ReplyDeleteI have an idea for a wheel. Two magnets attached to each end of a stick. A series of these mounted across the center of the wheel so they can slide. Have a series of repulsion magnets on the left side of the wheel pushing the stick set up to the right givin the wheel leverage to spin clockwise. Now also rubber bands that would spring the stick set ups back toward the middle of the wheel before they encounter the repulsion magnets again.
ReplyDeleteI was once told by an engineer that if properly manufactured for the intended application, a spring should never wear out, no matter how much use it sees (within specification).
ReplyDeleteCompression spring manufacturers
Did you know that that you can make cash by locking premium sections of your blog or site?
ReplyDeleteTo start you need to open an account on Mgcash and run their Content Locking tool.