I wish all of us the best of luck this year, in our continued quest for the solution to Besslers Wheel.
I joined the Besslerwheel forum on November 5, 2003, and I suspect that in the New Year of 2004 I predicted that the solution Bessler’s wheel would be found in that year. I also predicted success on this blog in every Happy New Year blog, probably since I started it. I was always confident and yet beneath my confident manner, I didn’t actually know what the solution was or even if there really was one, but as George Michael sang it “you just gotta have faith!”
So now, when I say that I’m confident that this year, we will learn that there is a solution and I really do know what it is, I won’t disappoint! I’ve written a complete description of how and why it is the solution, and I’m still working on finishing my Proof-of-Principle model, which I hope to show working before my 81st Birthday, 5th February. I am still adding some images to the description, because text is not enough. When the wheel is finished I’ll post some pictures working or not. This is the first time in my life, I know have the complete solution and I will share it as soon as possible.
I haven’t done much work on the PoP model, over Christmas, because of other activities. As well as Christmas and visiting our far-flung family, all gathered up north, I’ve taken my wife to have surgery on a skin cancer on her face, to a hospital about an hour away, five times since the beginning of December. The last appointment is next Monday and the surgeon has stated that she will have a 99% cure and full recovery.
If the solution is correct or some other person’s is better, or beats me to it, it will only be the second time in the whole of recorded history that the correct configuration has resulted in a working model. If it’s mine, it will actually be Bessler’s wheel, and it will then be the only one ever recorded. Yes the design is recorded in the four drawings in Das Triumphirende (DT) but you just have to work through all the clues to eventually find it. It’s taken me about 65 years since saw the first picture, although I didn’t start to really examine them until about 2010, 15 years ago.
Best wishes to you all,
JC
Happy NY2026 to you to JC. Sorry to read of your wife's skin cancer. Fortunately, being on the surface they are highly curable and I'm sure she'll be fine. Most people don't know that about half of all new cancers are skin cancers and better there then, say, in the brain or pancreas where they are much harder to reach and treat and usually have worse outcomes.
ReplyDeleteI'm a little confused by your blog this time. Are you saying that you will reveal something BEFORE your 81st birthday or are we, again, being told you won't reveal anything until AFTER you get your wheel working. I'd recommend publishing the written description of the wheel's mechs first and before your 81st. Then let us digest that and maybe make a few drawings of it for you to comment on. Follow that up with some photos of whatever you've got then whether it works or not. Then wait for the sims to come in and see what they show.
New years always start off with a ton of work we were delaying due to the previous year's hectic holiday season. But, after we're caught up, we can then glide along until spring when it's time to mow that damn grass again!
As they say, "Life is what happens while we're making plans". But plans are fun to make and can give us the illusion that we're achieving something. The reality, however, is that only results are achievements. Plans are just nerve impulses bouncing around inside of our heads which MIGHT lead to actual achievements in the real world.
Sorry if I confused you, anon 15:19. I wrote the blog first then, I made some improvements and corrections. So just to be clear, I will reveal everything BEFORE my 81st birthday, whether it does or doesn’t work. My PoP wheel is holding me up because I keep trying to improve the text of the description. I will add some photos of my wheel at the same time which will hopefully clarify things.
ReplyDeleteJC
Most excellent! That's exactly what everyone here wants to hear. I will be eagerly looking forward to whatever you can share with us. Let's hope by spring it's shown to be a runner or, at least, a potential runner.
DeleteJohn wrote "Yes the design is recorded in the four drawings in Das Triumphirende..."
ReplyDeleteI'd gladly give my left arm to see what was in those missing four drawings!
Happy New Year everyone!
Please don't chop off your arm yet! It might come in "handy" if you ever try to build a working replica of a Bessler wheel.
DeleteHere's the secret pm lever shape clue Bessler hid in the second DT portrait and only expected that a reverse engineer with the most "discerning mind" would ever find!
https://postimg.cc/qtv3gHMw
Also, HAPPY NEW YEAR to all!
Awesome discovery, anon 02:29! SoS DEFINITELY needs to see this one which I think will make him very happy. The ratios of the lever's arms in your lever look to be exactly the same as the ratios I found for the lever Bessler hid in that annual name day card he did for Karl and which I revealed several blogs ago. Both drawings were made in the same year of 1719. The difference between the two levers looks like the one I found was flipped vertically through 180 degrees compared to the one you found (which I think he had to do with my lever so he could use his extra secret decoding method on its arms to get the attachment points on them for the interconnecting ropes). Here's what I previously found hidden in that annual card for Karl:
Deletehttps://postimg.cc/PCJhMqG1
Notice in your lever that the vertical arm to the right, which would be the "Main arm" that held weights at its end runs along the ruler which just happens to be 14 inches long and that is also supposedly the length of the Main arms of the levers in both the Merseburg and Kassal wheels. But, look where the end of your lever's Main arm is located. It touches that third and largest vertical lead ingot lying on the shop table (were those little ingots used in plumbing?). This was probably Bessler's way of telling us that the lever he hid in the second DT portrait had the orientation that a lever actually inside of one of his wheel's drum would have had when the turning drum placed it at the 3:00 location. Those ingots also could provide another important clue. Notice that there are three vertical ingots near the end of that Main arm symbol and, IIRC, someone previously mentioned that Bessler attached lead cylinder weights in groups of three to the ends of both the Merseburg and Kassal wheel levers.
I'm not sure how Bessler hid the measurement values for the lengths of the other two arms of his Y shaped lever in that second DT portrait, but I'm sure they are there somewhere. I will keep looking for them and report back if I find anything.
Thanks for sharing your nice new clue discovery with us, anon 02:29. This new year is getting off to a fine start!
Disciple of SoS
Anon 22:46. The four drawings are in Das Triumphirende, they are not missing.
DeleteJC
I'm back with new clue discovery of my own this time!
DeleteAfter starring for about an hour at that new lever shape clue that anon 02:29 shared with us, I suddenly realized where Bessler hid the length of its A arm which is supposed to be 7.47 inches. Here's how to find it (sorry for the low resolution image I had to use):
https://i.postimg.cc/h413gBfp/lever-A-arm-length-clue.jpg
First look at the yellow arrow labeled A in my sketch. It points down to that large angle tool which I call a "pelican beak" because I don't know what its real name is supposed to be. Its shape, outlined in yellow, is that of the number 7, but Bessler reverses it to hide that from a reader of DT.
Second, look at the orange arrow labeled B. It points down to the pivot of that pelican beak tool and represents a decimal point which I've circled in orange.
Third, look at the red arrow labeled C. It points to where the L shaped drafting tool crosses under the lower arm of the pelican beak tool and forms the number 4 which I've outlined in red.
Fourth and finally, look at the blue arrow D in the lower right corner of my sketch. It points to a small compass which is opened up a little and, again, forms a reverse number 7 which I've outlined in blue.
When you put all of these cleverly arranged symbols together, you get 7.47 which is the length for the lever's A arm or 7.47 inches that anon 02:29 gave us in his sketch.
I still have not been able to find how Bessler hid the B arm length of 8.4 in that second DT portrait, but I will continue to look for it.
Yes, I think this is going to be a very good year for Bessler research!
Disciple of SoS
Before I forget again...Happy New Year Everyone!
PS @JC I think anon 22:46 got the four drawings you referred to in DT confused with the four supposedly missing drawings from MT. I think a lot of Bessler fans would gladly sacrifice an arm to see what they showed!
Yes. I think you’re correct.
DeleteJC
Happy New Year John ! And to all reading this. John, I am about to embark on my first (and likely only) build attempt. From your experience, what is the downside to building a SMALL version of my concept (like a 1 meter wheel vs. a 2 meter wheel)? Thanks.
DeleteAnon 17:59. I began my many builds with half a metre wheels, because i was just testing ideas using drawing pins, lollipop sticks, balsa wood, and small lead discs used to make curtains hang straight. Also at first I used a second hand Meccano set. Unfortunately I modified the Meccano pieces so many times, i ended up throwing them away.
DeleteCurrently building my last build using one meter wheel because you need to have space for modifications. Some mechanisms in my models were too big and could either go bigger or remake the mechanisms smaller.
Two meters is ok as long as you’ve got room, and you’ve got enough material to make the mechanisms.
Happy new year and good luck!
JC
Thanks John! Please opine that if my principal is sound, a smaller version will accurately demonstrate it. It seems like a smaller version requires a lot more precision. What was bessler's smallest working observed wheel?
DeleteHappy New Year to you @anon 17:59.
DeleteMany believe that Bessler's original prototype wheel was only 36 inches in diameter which is roughly 1 meter for those using metric system measurements. That's large enough so that the levers are not too small to handle, yet it's big enough to easily move around on a tabletop. A 2 meter wheel diameter will give you double the torque for the same weight masses and number of weights, but it is cumbersome to move around on a tabletop which then obliges one to put it on the floor and work on it while sitting in a chair. That, of course, is better than standing and having to then keep bending over to reach parts of the wheel which can risk straining the back muscles.
Also, please don't hesitate to tell us of your progress and even also disclose your design here if you want to whether it works or not. We love to see anything new around here.
@anon 17:59
DeleteWelcome to this blog and happy new year to you. It's important that you do not overdo it with your Bessler wheel research and make sure to take periodic breaks from it. If you do not, then like the guy below you risk going totally insane and falling in love with a giant flower eating prairie dog. It's one of the hazards associated with this hobby that you should know about.
https://i.giphy.com/WmHLLlPdLdZr3WURhc.webp
LOL! Good one anon 20:17. On many an occasion over the years, soon after I realized my latest brain fart wheel design was just another dead duck, that was me...minus the giant prairie dog though.
DeleteDoSoS wrote "I still have not been able to find how Bessler hid the B arm length of 8.4 in that second DT portrait, but I will continue to look for it."
ReplyDeleteI know as an SoS disciple trainee that I'm still the low man on the totem pole of clue analyzers around here, but I decided to take a crack at it. I found it was easier than I expected. Here's a drawing showing how to get the 8.4 inches for the remaining B arm on that Y lever:
https://postimg.cc/SJ0yn3p6
You start on the left side with that divider that Bessler holds against the globe. There are two legs to it which gives you the number 2. Next go down and to the right of it and you will see some item (I have no idea what it is supposed to be) that has a plus + sign on it. That means we have to add numbers together. To the right of that there is another divider with its legs closed together (could be another symbol for addition) and they give us another number 2. Next, notice the large protractor which looks like the letter D. D is the fourth letter of the alphabet and that gives us a number 4. So we add all these numbers together and get 2 + 2 + 4 = 8.
Finally, for the 0.4 fraction I just used the symbols that DoSoS found for the decimal point and the number 4 which are the pivot of the pelican beak angle tool and the number 4 formed by the lower leg of that tool and the part of the L shaped thing that crosses it. Adding everything together we get 2 + 2 + 4 + 0.4 = 8.4 which represents the length of the B arm of the Y lever or 8.4 inches.
Not too bad for a SoS disciple trainee I would say.
Brad
Also, happy new year everyone!
Good work, Brad! I saw where the 0.4 would come from, but was not sure how to get the 8. I also realized that the protractor was a giant letter D, but thought it had to be multiplied by 2 to get the 8. However, I could not find a multiplier x symbol nearby to justify that multiplication. I think your interpretation of that little object having a + sign in it indicating addition makes more sense and does tell us to add the two legs of each of the two dividers together to get 2 + 2 = 4 which we must then add to the 4 value of the letter D to get the 8.
DeleteImo, you have now risen a level up on that clue analyzer totem pole you mentioned! I think SoS will also be well pleased when he next appears after reading your analysis in this blog's comments.
DoSoS
I took another look at that clue you found, Brad, and think I can add another nearby little clue in the second DT portrait that supports what you found. My extra clue is shown in this quick sketch I made:
Deletehttps://postimg.cc/rzmpdxBs
I focused on Bessler's hand holding the divider on the globe. Notice how his four fingers are arranged. If you rotate all of them 90 degrees ccw, they form a letter M which could stand for the Merseburg wheel. If you rotate them all 90 degrees cw, then they form a letter W which could stand for the Weissenstein Castle wheel! If this is correct, then he's telling us that the second DT portrait contains information about those two 12 foot diameter wheels.
Next, as I looked at the four fingers, they reminded me of the legs of the two dividers! I've indicated this in my sketch by drawing yellow lines on the four fingers. Two of the Bessler's fingers representing divider legs are touching which are his middle and ring fingers. But, look carefully at the fingertips of those two fingers. I'm not sure if it's just my imagination, but it looks to me like they form the addition sign or + from arithmetic! If so, then this is another clear message that we are to add the fingers that represent divider legs together which then gives us four fingers or the number 4 which you already got by adding together the total number of legs on the two dividers.
Also, as I looked at the four fingers on that divider pressed against the globe, I noticed that they reminded me of two letter V's! They are next to each other which, for letters used as numbers in algebra, mean they are to be multiplied together. If, as Bessler usually does, we take the V's to be Roman numerals with a value of 5 each, then he telling us that we must multiply them to get 5 x 5 = 25. That number, again, refers to the 25th letter of the alphabet which is the letter Y. This is yet another reference to Bessler's use of a Y shaped lever which can, thanks to anon 02:29, be easily found in the second DT portrait.
Anyway, keep up the good work, Brad. So far, for an SoS disciple trainee, you are doing a great job on this blog.
Disciple of SoS
Big news and happy new year to everyone!
ReplyDeleteThey were recently doing some structural renovations at the Cafe Sieburg which is built into Bessler's old residence in Karlshafen and found a small chest hidden in a wall they tore down. When the chest was broken open it contained several dozen old letters Bessler saved and a single printed drawing. It looks like it could be a copy he made of one of the four drawings he removed from his unpublished mt and destroyed after his arrest. There is a historical society in the town now in possession of the contents of this chest, but they are keeping it top secret for the time being. Because of connections I have with some of its members, I was able to get a hastily made photo of this single mt drawing that Bessler somehow forgot to destroy. It seems to confirm that he was using those odd Y shaped levers in his wheels. Here it is and hopefully it will be of help to all you students of Bessler's perpetual motion wheels. Good luck with it:
https://postimg.cc/ykqG781y
This has got to be a hoax. My guess is it's some sort of AI fake.
DeleteYes it’s a hoax, but it has pointers towards Ken B, again! Those annoying Y shaped levers suggest either he or one of his disiples is the poster. So irritating and having nothing to do with anything relative to Bessler.
DeleteJC
After seeing all of the clues pointing to Bessler using Y levers on this blog over the years, I'm convinced that he did actually use them. However, anon 00:53's "hastily made photo" of the surviving MT drawing copy is an obvious fake. If you look at the levers at 1:30, 3:00, and 7:30 you can see that the pivots for the levers are not located properly on their wheel radial. Also notice how flattened the lever at 3:00 looks. I've seen these kinds of problems with other AI generated images. But, if not for those flaws, it could pass for genuine because the other details of its discovery sound plausible. The paper it's supposed to be printed on does look like it is 300 years old. I doubt if the real Ken B made this. He tends to be a perfectionist and he would have made sure those levers of his were lined up better in a fake. Also, whoever made this forgot most of the other parts of the wheel like the weights, ropes, and springs. Maybe we're supposed to think this incomplete wheel drawing had a purpose like just showing Bessler's students how the ropes interconnected the levers on the wheel's ascending side?
DeleteWhy cant I find a complete set of the actual MT drawings online any more? The use to be on a few sites.
Delete
Delete@anon 15:45
You can find all of the archived MT drawings here, but they do not include Bessler's notes for those drawing which had notes:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170907183803/http://www.orffyre.com/mt1-20.html
If you want to see Bessler's original test prints for the unpublished MT drawings, then you can find them on this university library site:
https://orka.bibliothek.uni-kassel.de/viewer/image/1580978770615/909/LOG_0062/
You will have to flip through the pages to find the various drawings and be able to read 18th century German to understand the notes.
You can also just buy a download of John's version of MT which will have all of the English translations of the notes attached to the drawings.
This link will take you to copies of all of the original MT drawings and save you the trouble of picking through the university library's originals, but the quality of the images is not the best:
Deletehttps://besslerwheel.com/mt/
Go down to the fifth post on this bwf topic and you will find all of the MT notes. There's also a link at the bottom to a pdf file that will give you all of the notes to the mt drawings.
Deletehttps://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9059
I might have missed it; has someone built a perpetual motion wheel with y shaped levers that has completely changed physics as we know it? No? Yeah, I didn’t think so. 😂
DeleteWhoever builds a working wheel won't be changing the laws of physics whether the wheel has straight or Y shaped levers and five or eight of them. He will only be finding a unique design that does not violate physics, but which no one, other than Bessler, thought of before. I think this will be the year!
DeleteYes anon 00:53's comment is a total hoax. But, I think it's one we all secretly wish was true. If only some new evidence would emerge to solve the wheel mystery for us. But, it's starting to look like Bessler made 100% sure that would not be happening. All we have to go on are clues and each one, by itself, may have multiple interpretations and who knows if any are correct. The only possible way to get any information about Bessler's wheels is to find similar interpretations for several different clues in the same drawing, but that is a tedious job and not done with a quick visual inspection. Quick visual inspections will lead one down the same dead end roads thousands of others have followed over the centuries. I accept Bessler's use of Y levers because there have been by now maybe over a dozen clues indicating their use. Imo, that cannot be due to chance or misinterpretations. If it quacks like a duck, walks like duck, and flies like duck, then it's a duck...and not a dead one!
DeleteImo, B's clues were intended to allow only him to prove priority to his invention if, later, another inventor showed up with the same pm wheel mechanics and claimed he was the first to invent it. Because of that, the clues had to be simple enough to point out to convince an average person that B was the first inventor. The clues also had to involve precise physical properties like the mass of the weights, lengths of ropes, and angles of the parts and their geometrical arrangement inside of a wheel's drum. The best place to put all of that information would be in the various drawings B made.
DeleteI've seen some impressive efforts in the last several blogs to find some of those clues. The strongest ones seem to point to the use of those Y shaped levers because of how many times they appear in different forms in B's drawings. It's possible that B knew that a wheel could not work unless it had levers with that particular shape and that accounts for all of the clues for it. If so, then it would most likely be the first clue he would point out to prove his priority. Most interestingly, B never admits that any design, other than his, could possibly work and described his as the "finest" that could be made.
However, if a rival inventor showed up with a working pm wheel that did not use the Y shape levers, then B would not be able to say anything about his invention because it would not be using B's mechanics. This then begs the question of whether or not it is possible to make a pm wheel that does not use Y shaped levers. If it is, then JC certainly has a chance of having a runner even though it won't be B's. If, however, it is not possible, then JC will only have another dead duck to toss onto the mile high pile of them that now exists. His story is not yet written. Let's see if it is at least partially by the time of his 81st birthday. Hoping him the best...
I've seen plenty of pm wheels with straight levers and some with curved levers. I've never seen any, except for the Ken B wheel, with Y levers. However, I'm open to the possibility. If Bessler's Connectedness Principle used several ropes between levers, he might have needed to have extra arms on them to make it work and a Y lever could provide two extra arms.
DeleteCertes mais les hypothèses du théorème de Noether seront à revoir.
ReplyDeleteIt's a pity the hoaxer puts his energy and skill into making an elaborate lie and not solving Bessler's wheel mechanics.
ReplyDelete@19:19
DeleteWho knows what motivates the troll or the hoaxer. Maybe anon 00:53's hoax was intended to shake everyone here up so he could sit back and enjoy the show with some arguing that the missing MT drawing was real and others insisting that it is fake. Since most internet trolls have sadistic personality types, that could explain his action. Otoh, it looks like he used part of the Ken B wheel for his fake and that tells me he might be a believer in the Y shape levers and was trying to get more to also accept them as necessary to duplicating one of Bessler's pm wheels. If that's the case, then his hoax would seem like he was genuinely interested in help Bessler pm wheel chasers finally find some success. That would actually be altruistic of him.
What I think many are missing with this incident is that, if not for the errors in his AI hoax, he might have succeeded in getting others to believe his photo of a missing MT drawing was genuine. I think he made his particular hoax because he knew that it would appeal to a real need around here...a final and verifiable solution to solving the Bessler wheel mystery. I'm also sure his won't be the only hoax that will appear here. No doubt we will see more in the future by others and those hoaxers will be more careful with their fakes. Also, even if the real solution eventually appears, we can be sure that most will immediately declare it is a hoax. Even if it is "officially" verified as genuine, some will still continue to declare its verification to be yet another hoax. Only when they are actually using the invention in their personal lives will they finally grudgingly admit that it is real.
You can justify it all u you want but u are still a liar.
DeleteUnfortunately, we live in a world based on lies. It begins with religions and continues with governments and seeps into our homes with every commercial we see. People often demand truth...but only if it's a truth to their liking. If not, they will sometimes eliminate those telling the truth as history has shown repeatedly.
DeleteA functioning healthy society is based on social connections built on trust. Erode personal & public trust & society enters a sharp decline to chaos. These are the dumb mf's.
Delete"Anonymous 4 January 2026 at 21:46 wrote
ReplyDeleteWhoever builds a working wheel won't be changing the laws of physics whether the wheel has straight or Y shaped levers and five or eight of them. He will only be finding a unique design that does not violate physics, but which no one, other than Bessler, thought of before.
I think this will be the year!"
We all hope this will be the year & perhaps it might be. The venerable John Collins imo has earned the right to have a first crack at it in 2026 & be the man of the hour if not the century.
If he actually does reveal anything, he risks becoming the flop of the century! Better to keep everything secret and be thought to maybe have the solution, then to reveal enough to prove you don't and probably never will.
DeleteHe won;t be the flop of the century...he will only be another of the thousands of flops this century and one of the millions of flops in history. Being a flop at least shows someone tried to find a solution instead of just sitting back and endlessly philosophizing about the subject while not doing anything but blowing out a constant stream of hot air. Thank god for the flops I say...especially since I am one of them!
Deletedead ducks , flops , let the vultures eat crow & John be the old GOAT
Deleteyou want John to be this?!
Deletehttps://postimg.cc/v4ZsWPzW
there is a bit of a resemblance now that you mention it...
but old goats can be wise!
Deletehttps://i.postimg.cc/15swfkDG/The-Goat-is-Wise.jpg
G.O.A.T. Greatest Of All Time
DeleteYou’re mistaken, if someone builds a perpetual motion wheel it would change the laws of physics as we know them. Bessler’s wheels weren’t perpetual either, the laws ruled there. If someone built one they would actually be the first. No one is going to anyway so the laws aren’t going to change.
ReplyDelete"Bessler’s wheels weren’t perpetual either, the laws ruled there."
DeleteKen B was the first person I recall making such a blasphemous claim years ago. He said that B's wheels ran off of the mass energy of their lead weights and, since each wheel only contained a limited amount of lead, a wheel could only run for a limited time. But, even for a small wheel with its low power output, that time could be millions of years if it did not break down from wear! Trying scientifically verify something like that would probably be impossible in practice. Also, maybe he's wrong about that and a running wheel's weights can somehow pull in mass from the wheel's surroundings so that the weights masses never decrease? But, that still would not mean the wheel could run forever because, eventually, all the mass from the surroundings would be gone...but, then maybe that environment's atoms could somehow also pull in mass from even farther away surroundings? When would it stop? Actually, never if the amount of mass in the universe is infinite! These are all mind straining physics problems that we may never be able to answer. Meanwhile, we have to concentrate on finally getting something up and running.
I can't shake the feeling that if it does not happen soon, like in the next few years, then it will never happen and the chase after pm will wind up in the same dumpster as alchemy and witchcraft. That would be a sad ending for it considering all of the effort made for it in human history. Fawk, ancient craftsmen thousands of years ago whose historical records were lost could have been chasing it soon after the wheel was invented about 6,000 years ago! I don't for a second believe it all started with that Indian mathematician, Bhāskara II, around 1150 AD.
"...if it does not happen soon, like in the next few years, then it will never happen and the chase after pm will wind up in the same dumpster as alchemy and witchcraft."
DeleteI agree that this subject needs a breakthrough if it is to survive. JC is not going to live forever and if he passes before that breakthrough happens, then what little interest there is in Bessler and his wheels will drop right down to zero. We can't let that happen. Let's all hope that 2026 is the year that long overdue breakthrough finally happens.
My two cents: the time for PM energy to change the world has passed. If you think the matter through, the economics (compared to the alternative sources of energy) would never make sense. However, it would be nice to see it work!
DeleteYeah I couldn't care less if Bessler's wheels are used to power all of those AI data centers that the billionaires plan to build. Like anon 07:09, I just want to know how he did it. I'm sure once that's known, the principle will show up in some kids' science toys or for display models to show off in technology museums. Bessler had an important invention that was ahead of its time, but I put it in the same category as, for example, the Crooks radiometer or that radium powered electroscope. They never were developed into usable power sources.
DeleteAnon 23:36 wrote:
Delete"You’re mistaken, if someone builds a perpetual motion wheel it would change the laws of physics as we know them. Bessler’s wheels weren’t perpetual either, the laws ruled there. If someone built one they would actually be the first. No one is going to anyway so the laws aren’t going to change."
Anon 2:55 (probably Ken) wrote:
"Ken B was the first person I recall making such a blasphemous claim years ago. He said that B's wheels ran off of the mass energy of their lead weights..."
Bessler's wheels didn't run from the conversion of the lead in the weights. That has to be the dumbest explanation anyone has ever expounded.
IIRC he claims that all of the atoms in the lead of Bessler wheel's weights slowly lose their masses as the wheel turns and outputs energy. That energy then flows into some external machine to power it and the masses of its moving parts increase as that happens. He compares it to the "flow" of heat energy from a hotter to cooler object. At least he has some explanation for where the energy came from that does not violate the 1st LoT. Whenever I ask where a pm wheel gets its energy, people start babbling about gravity, the Earth's rotation, or tidal forces due to the Moon's orbit. IOW, they are clueless.
Delete😂😂😂 Ken B, you're as clueless as they come! But keep trying!
Deleteunstable is , unstable does
ReplyDeleteB's one way wheels were always unstable and, when released, would knock themselves out trying to become stable. But B's wheel mechs prevented that from ever happening. As they struggled to do so, they did outside work on attached machines for him that dazzled those watching a wheel demo. How awesome B must have felt knowing that only he knew how they worked and it would cost others a mint to obtain his secrets. B never received a just compensation for his invention in the form of silver coins, but one cannot put a price on the ego trip he would have experienced. Most likely one of the biggest in history!
DeleteI wonder whatever happened to the Abeling "working" gravity wheel?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPClcSEko4I
ChatGPT says this about it:
Delete"What happened to Abeling’s wheel project?
There’s no trace of a verified working Abeling wheel anywhere after those early videos and forum mentions. On enthusiasts’ forums discussing Abeling’s design (often in the context of historical gravity wheels like Bessler’s), people built models, theorized about weight movements, and debated the physics — but they don’t report a functioning perpetual-motion device. Participants often treat the project as a curiosity or thought experiment, not a proven breakthrough."
Then, the AI program decides, without being asked, to put down Bessler's wheel after it answered my first question with this:
"Abeling’s interest ties back to the long history of attempting “gravity wheels,” such as the 18th-century inventor Johann Bessler (Orffyreus), who claimed to build a working gravity wheel in his time. Bessler demonstrated wheels that appeared to spin for long periods, but modern historians and scientists regard these either as fraud or trick mechanisms, and the machine was never scientifically validated or preserved.
This historical case shows how perennial the idea is — but also how elusive real evidence has been."
The new AI takes every opportunity to it can to cr*p on Bessler's legacy!
Question in Quora .. Why is it that an LLM ( Large Language Model ), which is basically just a next-word predictor, can handle tasks that require abstract or logical thinking, like math or coding?
DeleteThe answer to “ Why is it that an LLM, which is basically just a next-word predictor, can handle tasks that require abstract or logical thinking, like math or coding? ” is that they actually can’t. (Not without being trained to do so, see the edit added section, and the comments of course, for insights I did not have when writing the first version of this.)
Yes, you read that correctly, LLMs cannot actually handle tasks that require abstract or logical thinking. ( See end for a rebuttal of this point. )
What makes them APPEAR like they can, is that they have a large corpus of known answers that they can STATISTICALLY apply to create plausible answers. Now, if you do “small enough” problems, that inference is sufficient. There are enough overlapping answers that the “correct” answer is also the MOST PROBABLE thing that they will synthesize. But they do this by PATTERN matching and approximating, not by reasoning ( not in the sense that human’s usually mean that word ).
Now, not all AIs have that limitation. Some do reason. Prolog programs specifically did and there were whole debates on “ how ” they “ should ” reason. But LLMs do not reason.
This means that beyond a certain size problem an LLM will not get the “ right ” answer. It will “ hallucinate ” ( fabricate ) a plausible string of words that sounds like the right answer, but will not be logically or semantically sound.
.. ETA by me .. if the question is specialized ( small ) enough ( like how did B's. runners work ? ) , with not a lot of empirical supporting data over many sources on the question asked , then the Ai ( small i for intelligence ) can only give a statistically based answer i.e. the commonest answer . And that is that his runners were a PM fraud . It should surprise no one that this is the answer given because Ai does not apply logic or any artificial intelligence to reasoning and structuring it's answer . It mines and organizes available information and opinion and is trained to present it in a readable way that may appear reasoned and cognizant to the unaware .
ChapGPT said: "Bessler demonstrated wheels that appeared to spin for long periods, but modern historians and scientists regard these either as fraud or trick mechanisms, and the machine was never scientifically validated or preserved. "
DeleteI guess the Kassal wheel running for 57 days does not count as scientific validation as far as "modern historians and scientists" are concerned. I suspect that if the wheel had run for 5 years nonstop, we'd get the same opinion from those morons!
54 days
DeleteThere’s no scientific evidence for pm, or for Bessler’s wheels. AI is going to give you a scientifically accurate answer to those questions. If it was hallucinating the answer would be ‘Yes, PM is possible if you have the right configuration of weights in a wheel like JB did’. Lol.
DeleteMaybe Bessler's wheels were all cleverly hoaxed and WE are the ones who are all "hallucinating"?!
DeleteThe "I can make energy come out of nowhere" hallucination seems to be a persistent one. Why are humans always looking to get something for nothing? The universe does not work that way. My mother had a saying in Polish "Nic nie dostajesz za nic". I think I should have listened to her.
DeleteAbeling’s gravity wheel wasn't the only zero proof wheel that became a talking point wheel on many an old bwf post. There was another one called the "Buzzsaw Wheel" that had everyone excited for months. They even had most of the rusted remains of the original wheel and a newer version of it was constructed by several former members of bwf. There were rumors of the original inventor's family seeing him experimenting with it and while turning at full speed, it spat out one of its iron cylinder weights which actually flew right through a barn wall! Everyone was convinced it had to be a runner. It used gears and counter rotating discs with notches in their rims to carry ascending side weights back to the top at twice the speed that the descending side weights moved so that there were always twice as many weights on the descending side of the axle than on the ascending side. This made it appear to be constantly overbalanced. Unfortunately, several sims where made of it showing it was just another dead duck, but despite them many still thought it should work and all of the sims had to be wrong. Eventually, the pm community lost interest in it and moved on to the next talking point wheel. I found this photo of the newer version of it that had been constructed:
Deletehttps://frienergi.alternativkanalen.com/Panacea_filer/Buzz.jpg
@ 15:21 and anyone of similar thinking. I understand your doubt completely. I have my own. I have undergraduate, graduate, and doctorate degrees (not in science, but I understand reason, logic, and research standards). I have no delusions. But here is the thing: a dozen or more TOP intellectuals (and/or their representatives) inspected this thing while it ran. They were not his friends, family, or investors. Each one would DESPERATELY have wanted to uncover the fraud if it existed. You and I were not there, but THEY WERE! It is very hard to imagine that they didn't conclude with certainty that nothing from OUTSIDE the wheel was causing it to spin. They inspected the open bearings in contact with the axle (and they removed the bearings from the posts!). This leaves only two possibilities: 1) Weights inside the wheel were falling incrementally like a grandfather clock, or 2) springs had been wound or compressed prior to the demonstrations. As long as they observed the wheel lifting more weight (cumulatively) than the wheel itself weighed, it could not have been option 1. And what type/configuration of springs could have been wound/bent/compressed to store enough energy to have done the things that they observed? After 300 years, no one has been able to EITHER duplicate this "fraud" OR this "success". This fact alone is worthy of respect for those pursuing an answer (even if misguided). I was ready to dismiss all of this decades ago, but my final problem was Karl. Known for his reputation of honesty, he told others that he had seen the inside of the wheel, that it was really PM, and that it was simple. I can't let go of that.
DeleteYou're right. It's hard to just dismiss Karl's statement. He was no fool. He was an expert mathematician and familiar with all of the new technology being developed back then. IIRC, he actually started one of the first museums in Europe! Skeptics will just dismiss his testimony by saying that he could still have been fooled if Bessler's fake wheel was convincing enough. I don't dismiss Karl, though. But, one still has the thorny problem of answer where did the energy come from that Bessler's wheels outputted. It could not have come out of nothing. What was the source? If one knew that, then figuring out how Bessler's mechs tapped it would be a lot easier, imo.
DeleteThey had to be carrying the energy inside of their drums and it had to be a lot of energy. Without a better explanation, I can go along with the Ken B approach that says the energy came from the weights because they were probably most of the mass of the drum and just one gram of mass equals a lot of energy. A falling weight loses gravitational energy and a rising one gains gravitational energy. So for this to work, the falling weights would have to lose more gravitational energy than the rising ones gained back. But, how can that be possible if the weights on both sides of a turning wheel fall and rise through the same distance? Well, apparently, it must be possible if that's how B's wheels worked.
DeleteHere's a interesting passage from AP:
Delete"Wagner describes how he thinks my machine is constructed; he babbles about "excess weights" being snatched along, by means of "internal motive power", in a frequently-repeated cycle of up and down movements. According to him, Nature dictates that things gravitate downwards. But the weights which rest below must, in a flash, be raised upwards, and it is this that Wagner cannot force himself to accept. But, crazy Wagner, just note that that is indeed the case with my device. But if anyone should presume to say that my Wheel is definitely such-and-such without having seen it, he is a fool and a fantasizer of the first order. He deserves to have a donkey's tail affixed to his lying rump."
Note the lines "...the weights which rest below must, in a flash, be raised upwards..." and "...just note that that is indeed the case with my device."
The weights "which rest below" must refer to weights at the ends of levers that, as they pass the drum's 6:00 location, swing back and closer to the axle. You can see this action in MT13. Then, all of a sudden "in a flash", those same weighted levers begin rapidly rising as their end weights get farther from the axle and closer to the drum's rim. That action by individual weighted levers cannot happen in isolation. Each weighted lever swinging up like that must be assisted by the falling of other weighted levers which means it has to be mechanically connected to them in some way like with ropes and that would seem to explain Bessler's "connectedness principle". But, there are also springs involved in all of this.
Rising in a flash requires energy which has to be lost by something else in the wheel dropping at the same time and, as you say, that something rising, a lever with an end weight, must be attached to other levers whose weights are dropping at the same time. Most likely the connections would be ropes which are much lighter than things like metal rods but not as durable. I think Bessler's wheel levers were in an equilibrium with each other that placed their cog onto the drum's descending side and would make the drum rotate. But that rotation then upset their equilibrium and caused all of the levers to shift together so as to put their cog right back at its starting location. This would be automatic and continue as long as the drum rotated. The wheel would keep gaining rot ke even though the cog of its weights remained at the same location! That's supposed to be impossible. A wheel cannot gain rot ke unless there is a drop in the location of its cog and this is a point that Wagner kept repeating in his Critiques. Or is it impossible? Pm is also supposed to be impossible, but Bessler did it.
DeleteIt is impossible , that's not what happened.
Deleteunstable strikes again . unstable is , unstable does . delivers a net positive torque .
DeleteI am a long time follower and want to start off the new year right saying I'm very close using a different concept that works and applying it to the inside of the wheel
ReplyDeleteRK
Great news, RK! Also, if you wish, do feel free to share your design here to see what kind of feedback you get. We are always looking for new ideas around here.
DeleteAh now, very close doesn't cut it, you either have it or not.
Delete@anon22:13. Good luck. It's always a good idea to start a new year off with some fresh ideas to try. Then, if by the end of that year you've achieved nothing, take a break during the holidays when you can just think back about why what you worked on did not work, and try to come up with something new to try in the coming year. Stay out of the shop and just make drawings in a notebook. Sooner or later a drawing will come along that will give you that "Eureka" feeling and you're set to begin again in the new year. My advice is to try to come up with something entirely new and not just a small change to the previous year's dead duck design. Dead ducks need to be buried rather than constantly attended to in the vain hope that they will miraculously resurrect!
DeleteIt would be amusing if I developed my own blog but titled it "Let's figure out how Bessler fooled everyone". Then all of the critics here could start working earnestly on models and designs also. Then both sides of the debate would be working "together" on this ! Ha !
DeleteThere was a blog comment years ago in which a super skeptic type came up with a way that the Weissenstein Castle wheel duration test was hoaxed. It involved there being a secret hidden entrance into the room that contained the wheel. The wheel was a spring powered fake like the one Wagner built which Bessler wound up before the demonstration and it could only run for maybe an hour or so. Shortly after the door was closed and sealed, Bessler's brother sneaked into the room through the concealed entrance they had found and stopped the wheel after which he fully rewound its springs. He then left. In December of 1719 and minutes before the room was reentered to inspect the wheel, Bessler's brother sneaked back in again and restarted the wheel then he remained hidden behind the carefully concealed entrance to the room. When the group left, Bessler's brother again reentered the room and stopped the wheel and fully rewound its springs. Finally, before the room was reentered again for the final time in January of 1718, Bessler's brother again reentered the room and started the wheel up.
DeleteHis brother would have been notified beforehand by Bessler when the group would be entering the room to examine the wheel so he could be ready to start and stop and rewind the wheel as needed. With this method of hoaxing the demonstration, only Bessler and his obedient brother were involved in the scheme and Karl would have known nothing about it. Admittedly, such a scheme is plausible if one can believe that those examining the room prior to the test somehow missed the concealed entrance which is possible if they weren't really looking for something like that.
The major problem I see with this skeptic's theory is that people were arriving at the castle during the test and were disappointed because they were not allowed into the room to see the wheel running because its main door was locked and sealed with wax. BUT, IIRC, there was at least one witness who claimed he put his ear to the main sealed door to the room and he could hear the thumping sounds, 26 per minute, that the 12 foot wheel made while running.
The thumps could've been made by Bessler's brother when the guy was listening at the door.
Deletepossible but unlikely if visitors to the castle arrived at random times and Bessler or his brother were not there to keep the hoax going. it would have been nice however if they had drilled a small peep hole in the main door so that the wheel could be periodically observed, without opening the door, to assure that it was running constantly. i don't know why that was not done. maybe the door was reinforced with metal sheets making it difficult to drill through with standard carpenter toos or Karl did not like the idea of a hole being drilled in it that could allow anyone in the future to see into the room to determine if anyone was hiding in it? i wish we had a nice floor plan showing the relationship of that room to the other rooms on its level. if such a floor plan was ever made and still exists, where would one find it nowadays?
DeleteVisitors wouldn’t just show up to the castle any old time. Someone would have always been there to watch the wheel and welcome them. It’s more likely they were ready for such a scenario when the wheel was being long tested.
Deletefacts & sources matter . what is the source we can read that says someone listening outside the door heard the Kassel wheel making 26 thumps per minute? it didn't happen & as usual is a made up story .
DeleteThere was some engineer who made that claim in a later writing of his. I can't recall his name or his writing however. Yes, "facts and sources matter". Unfortunately, when it comes to Bessler's wheels and their history, they tend to few and far apart. Much of what we think we know about them are based on assumptions, questionable interpretations of "clues", and delusional / wishful thinking which explains why there are so many designs for "working" pm wheels. But, with enough luck something useful may still come from all of this confusion. We need to stay positive despite the unbroken trail of failed attempts to reverse engineer his wheels over the centuries. How his wheels worked is a historical mystery that DEMANDS a solution. If we don't do it in our generation, then who will? My fear is that after JC passes away, interest in this subject will quickly be buried along with him.
DeleteWe cannot know for sure but, if it were fake, WHY would Bessler (and his brother and/or others) take the risk of faking this? The consequences would be dire. There was always the risk of being caught, that someone would push Bessler aside and look into the wheel, or ultimately someone would pay Bessler's price. Bessler himself said that any buyer could take back the money (and Bessler's head) if the thing turned out to be fake. The legal system of the time would have compelled this even without Bessler's assurance. What was to be gained from going to the great lengths to fool people?
Deletebizarre . Fischer was the engineer . he never said he nor anyone else listened outside the door . he saw the Kassel wheel tested firsthand in person & this is recorded in a letter .
Deleteyou say we need to stay positive & interest will dry up etc . the ink hasn't even begun to dry on JC & his yet to be presented solution .
He didn’t let anyone get close enough for a peek, that wasn’t a risk. No buyer would have actually cut off his head. They would get their money back and Bessler would have gone home with his tail between his legs which is kind of what happened to him anyway.
DeleteGuys, I queried ChatGPT about that engineer who could only hear the wheel through the sealed door and it answered:
DeleteThe engineer you’re referring to was Georg Michael Meetsma — a Dutch hydraulic engineer. In a poem he wrote (included in Bessler’s publication Das triumphirende perpetuum mobile Orffyreanum), Meetsma specifically mentioned that he heard the wheel running inside the sealed room at Weissenstein Castle but could not see it, because the door was locked and sealed with wax during the long duration test.
Hope that settles the matter.
Brad
I agree with anon 20:11. It would have been way too risky for Bessler to try to hoax his wheels especially the one being hosted by Karl at his castle. If he'd been discovered, he might not have been executed, but his reputation would have been shot for life. He might even have wound up in a filthy jail cell for a long time to make an example out of him. Just too risky, imo. No, he had something real and I tend to go along with the idea that it was a VERY precisely balanced mechanism. Far more precisely made then what the average pm chaser is capable of making. I think a lot of them don't believe that because they brag about how their EMPTY wheel is so carefully balanced that if a fly landed on it then it would start to turn. That's nice, but the imbalance caused after they add their weights and levers to the wheel can quickly ruin everything and make it unworkable. Don;'t forget that Bessler was a clockmaker at one time. He knew all about the importance of precise balancing in timepieces and he would have kept that in mind as he made his working pm wheels.
DeleteKarl was very clever and full aware of the attempts to scam the nobility. Any attempt to con them routinely ended in execution. He raised and maintained a large standing army of mercenaries, where extreme discipline was a vital ingredient. Executions for straying from the line of March by more than 3O yards often resulted in immediate execution. So, no there is no chance of a hoax being perpetrated.
DeleteJC
If he was clever he would he have done a better job managing the whole affair. Something doesn’t pass the smell test. They both would have been household names if it wasn’t a hoax. Free energy from gravity wheels, and no deal? 💩
DeleteThe deal killer was the high up front, lump sum B demanded and a potential buyer insisting on seeing the insides before he made payment which was completely unacceptable to B. He was stubborn, paranoid, and his lack of flexibility is what really ruined his chance for a quick sale. That plus his wheels weren't really that powerful and could not compete with a simple wind or water mill that cost a small fraction of what B wanted for his wheel design.
DeleteDidn't someone propose that the buyer would give Karl the 100,000 thalers to hold and then Bessler would give the buyer the wheel? If the buyer inspected the wheel and saw it was genuine, then Karl would pay Bessler the money. If, however, the buyer inspected the wheel and saw it was a fake, then Karl would give the buyer back his money, he could use the wheel for firewood, and Bessler would then be disgraced for life. Sounds like a simple solution that, for some reason, never got tried. But, I think that anon 03:37 is right. The price Bessler demanded was just too high for a one off payment. Maybe he should have cut the price to 25,000 thalers up front with the buyer paying Bessler so much per year until the remaining 75,000 thalers was paid off? If the wheel was a great as Bessler claimed it was, then it shouldn't have taken too long before the outstanding balance was paid off in full.
DeleteNo, it didn't sell because the potential buyers or their representatives weren't convinced it was PM. And they were right; it wasn't PM as claimed.
DeleteThe power was scalable. Anyone could have one. It was portable. If it was genuine PM, Karl and Bessler would have gotten a deal done, somehow, period.
Sounds like you don't believe Bessler built a pm wheel. If so, how do you think it worked?
Deletethey don't have a clue & hide behind the cover of anonymity . that way IF it turns out that JC or anyone produces a "PM" wheel based on gravity alone, & that all the testimonials supporting Bessler's PM wheel as a true PM wheel in DT were correct, they can distance themselves with impunity . talk is cheap lol
DeleteB was paranoid & didn't sell it for one simple reason . it was so damn simple . Karl said it , & B even said the buyer might want his money back . it was that simple he could not take any chances that could happen or could get stiffed when the buyer realized how simple it was . B understood clock making & had the skills to repair time pieces . while clocks were not simple his runners were . just read the John Collins DT testimonials , some from clock makers .
DeleteIf it was actually that simple one of the many thousands of pm chasers since Bessler's days would have found it. I don't think it was that simple. I go along with that anon who thinks it involved very precise balancing of its parts which no one has figured out how to do yet.
DeleteOf course no one knows how it worked. There’s no way unfortunately to know how it worked. We only know for sure that it wasn’t a PM gravity wheel.
Delete"We"??? I think most here do think it was some sort of "PM gravity wheel". If you say there is no way to know how it worked, then you are also dismissing all of those clues that JC found. Maybe even saying there are no clues?
Deletedid you read the DT testimonials ? of course you didn't !
DeleteOf course there aren't any clues. If he had left any clues someone would have figured them out by now and we'd be relieved of this endless bs.
DeleteIt's proven science you can't build a "gravity wheel".
Actually, someone did.
DeleteWhenever I see "proven science" being mentioned, it usually means debate has been banned!
DeleteBeing 150% confident that he's finally solved the Bessler wheel mystery, JC decides to start celebrating his victory early!
ReplyDeletehttps://streamable.com/wo5po3
(PS...file will be automatically deleted in 48 hours so save now if you want to keep it!)
This is one of the best fake ai animations I've seen. You could swear it was a recent video made of JC. I assume you made it using that "About Me" photo of him at the top of this page. But, you also had to have its background blacked out and all edges sharpened. Excellent work!
DeleteLol! Yeah really smooth. If that's him celebrating before his wheel is proved to be a runner then I'd like to see the AI version of him celebrating after its proved to be runner. Also I'd like to see what he would look like if his wheel turns out to be just another dead duck! That one can show him weeping like a baby and soaking a towel trying to dry off his face!
DeleteCool...it looks so realistic! I'm looking forward to seeing more like this here. How about fake videos of Bessler working on his wheels? Or maybe Bessler giving a public demo of a wheel? I see much potential for this new AI stuff. But I read it uses a lot of electricity. To make just one short video like anon 16:04 did uses enough power to charge a cell phone up three times! We better start building more nuke plants quick!
DeleteAnon 17:52 wrote "Also I'd like to see what he would look like if his wheel turns out to be just another dead duck!"
DeleteIn response to your request, I decided to use SoS's revolutionary "Futurocam" invention. Not only can it show what is destined to happen, it can also show what might happen if there is a random fluctuation in the future timeline and things don't go as expected. I programmed it to look ahead to the end of February of this year and show us what would happen IF, by some extreme improbability, JC's five lever "Bessler - Collins wheel" turns out to be a total dead duck flop with no hope of ever working. What was revealed is not something for anyone to view who is sensitive to extremely emotional scenes. Any such person viewing it does so at his or her own risk! You have been warned!
https://streamable.com/war8c9
Lol! the same thing happened to me a few days ago when I was chopping onions for dinner!
DeleteLet's all hope for John's sake that does not happen! View that AI clip at full screen and half normal speed to see all of the details.
DeleteI think that ai gave him way too much hair on top but I'm sure he won't mind that.
DeleteDamn! They deleted that video before I could see it. A curse on those "free" video hosting sites!
DeleteThank you anon 16:04, I remember the occasion, although I don’t think my mouth could ever open that side. That AI is amazing!
ReplyDeleteJC
You "remember the occasion"?! But, it's a fake. It never happened! Lol!
DeleteI remember wearing that pink shirt on holiday in Spain. I don’t know what the shirt was made of but in the restaurant I sweated like a PIG!
DeleteJC
@JC. Probably some synthetic fabric in that shirt. I can;t wear anything but cotton or I also sweat like a pig. Also, who knows what chemicals they put in those synthetics that could be leaching into your skin to give you "Big C" years later? Stick with natural fiber fabrics whenever possible even if you have to pay a little more for them.
DeleteThey also do put chemicals in sunscreen cream to give you "skin C" , and they do it on purpose.
Delete@JC. Your sweating from that shirt could have been a symptom of an allergic reaction. Many people are allergic to synthetic materials and need to avoid them. I'm one of them.
DeleteThanks guys, advice appreciated.
DeleteJC