I’ll be away for few days from the weekend but if possible I’ll respond to any comments about things in this post.
I have often argued that I thought that Bessler’s use of various pieces of code such as the atbash cipher or Caesar shift which he used to obtain the name Orffyreus from Bessler, indicated an interest in codes. He also mentioned that he had learned about the ‘Book of Nature’, and ‘The Language of Angels’, which are well known allusions to historic writings of a secret nature. His actual use of Hebrew hyroglyphics in one of his books at least supports his claim to have been taught some Hebrew. I have copies of his panagyrics to Karl which include numerous examples of his favourite obsession with chronograms, including some dated, 1519,1619, 1719, 1819, 1919 and 2019!
There are numerous occasions where he uses alphanumeric codes, easily proven, and also alphabetic substitution which again are not difficult to see. He also inserts the the initial capital letter of his three enemies, Gartner, Wagner and Borlach on several occasions within a single sentence with the initial letter accentuated. Often the sentence is less than complimentary and is clearly a way of critising the gang of three without actually naming them. I mention these minor examples to show his familiarity and habitual use of such systems for secrecy in writing.
Although these are quite innocuous pieces of code, when comments such as ‘those who seek answers should study this little book’, (paraphrased from memory) are taken into account, one starts to think perhaps there are other pieces of code which may contain more important information. I have barely scratched the surface of the huge amount of information embedded in these four books, so why is it that so many people dismiss the possible existence of precise instructions for building Bessler’s wheel?
I think it is because no-one has published anything which has been derived from a deciphered piece of code which even looks as if it might refer to some mechanical design. To me this is obviously part of Bessler's plan; get people interested in codes, simple ones first, and then hope that they will search out the harder ones and eventually get his full meaning. But he didn't want this to happen to quickly, hence the difficulty of getting to the truth.
Another possible reason is that since no-one believed him anyway, despite all the evidence that he was telling the truth, those people with a particular competence of code breaking were probably convinced that the physics teachers were correct, and what Bessler proposed and exhibited was impossible.
So given the likelihood that he did intend to publish coded information about the construction of his wheel, that may be why he expended an inordinate amount of time publishing his ‘Orffyreus Declaration of Faith’, containing 141 bible references, some of which don’t exist in any known bible? Why did he duplicate five of them? Why did he use 55 verses in chapter 55? I could go on, but why not visit my web site and see what an astounding document within his Apologia Poetica this is? I think he used the passage above to describe in his own words the way his wheel worked to complement his drawings. See my work on the Declaration of Faith by Orffyreus at...
And for more examples of Bessler’s use of codes see my website at....
The amount of time he must have spent divising and implementing such secret writing must surely have had a purpose, other than to impress or confuse his readers. What possible purpose could he have had other than the desire to convey secret information to his readers at some point in the future, a future that might not be reached until after he had passed away.
JC
sigh...
ReplyDeleteGoodbye...
I’ll be back soon!
DeleteThere is no code. The man was completely frustrated and felt misunderstood. He became conceited and felt superior to everyone. All his writings are merely a cry for attention. Some of the things he wrote about the wheel are helpful but you have to find the solution yourself. The design or mechanism will not be revealed by any text he wrote. You can only test your own solution against the minor cryptograms he left or compare it what eyewitnesses have seen and said about it.
ReplyDeleteBessler proved that the wheel can exist in nature. And since the fart kept it a secret it is up to someone else to do it again and show the physical explanation. It might be as simple as F = m x a.
Marinus.
I don't think there is any doubt that there are codes in AP and MT. The question is whether they are there to help or misdirect. I don't have the mental capacity to see codes the way John and 0ystein do, so I will leave that work up to them.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree John! Since you ask what else could the reason be, i would like to add; that the reason could in addition be to document a valuable cipher-system that he knew of! If people wanted to have access to such a system used by others, that would have value too. He mention that he will reduce the price of the wheel by 10% or so by withdrawing MT from the sale. So what on earth would a buyer need MT for if not for a second value? If he already have bought the complete wheel? So there is reason to believe MT holds another secret worth about 10% of a PM wheel. I claim that this is the documentation of a cipher-system used prior to him! I think this idea is in line with him in AP writing about his two secrets, that for some reason seemed connected. If this cipher system will lead to a working wheel or not, time will tell.
ReplyDelete" To me this is obviously part of Bessler's plan; get people interested in codes, simple ones first, and then hope that they will search out the harder ones and eventually get his full meaning. But he didn't want this to happen to quickly, hence the difficulty of getting to the truth."
ReplyDeleteOh my God John... What th..... This is just a textbook example of delusional thinking. You are seeing patterns that don't exist!
Bessler was trying to sell his wheel. There is absolutely zero, no, none, nada reasons to do something like you suggested.
If there was an attempt to encode the details of his design into his works, it would be later in his life, when he was frustrated and close to death... It is just simple and plain logic.
You are just a victim of Bessler's promotional tactics!
You could be right yellow, but I know what I know and I don’t think I’m a victim of Besslers promotional tactics. But hey, we’ll find out one way or the other, when I finish this wheel and either prove I’m right or you are. :-)
DeleteJC
He could have encoded his wheel early on in his works for a very simple reason - to prove ownership in case his wheel or plans were stolen. MT or AP (and the blueprints or coded design) would predate any public announcement by anyone else that may have stolen his idea, proving he had the idea first. Wouldn't anyone want to do this to protect themselves?
DeleteIt's HIGHLY possible that Bessler's bad drinking habit caused him to come up with strange and delusional markings, riddles, and doodles. Why else would someone who was extremely paranoid come up with weird writings?
ReplyDeleteSo, I ask you John and anyone else on this forum, do you think you could build a working wheel or some kind of perpetual gravity powered device without Bessler's secret riddled books?
It's been what...50+ years or so since people have tried to figure out what is in Bessler's alcohol fueled books? Let's just concentrate on what can and can't work and then build a true working gravity powered device that's going to benefit rual communities and at the same time frustrate non-believer's!
Not I, perpetualman, I am confident that my reconstruction will work and I will be able to prove the design was Bessler’s not mine.
DeleteJC
I think Bessler was a highly intelligent and intellectual person with great interest in nature and a great student of many trades. I also think that many more attempts of building PM wheels without studying Besslers written work has been done, than after studying them thoroughly. I think it is fair and correct approach that some people try to understand why he said he left enough written information to reconstruct the wheel, and other can keep on like his papers never existed. No method has so far proven superior, but the number of failures of attempts not following Besslers work is preponderant. So dismissing the existence of a secret system in his writings without studying the subject and the methods available at the time, wholehearted and dedicated, has no meaning, and it would make no sense objecting to such a study. If this quest was a research and development company, we would have departements where people would work on what they do best, from all possible angles, and divide the available information into the different departments of research. The different teams would all encourage each other and test and verify the different ideas at cross section meetings and brainstorming evenings. The company would never only have one department where everybody worked. It is a VERY good thing that we all attack this from different angles, without attacking each other, we all work for the same company (quest). The pure PM builders, or the "testing-crew" are the department with the least success or progress, but still we all need each other in the end.
DeleteGreat idea 0ystein, but working together mandates collaboration (sharing of findings) and well that is something not even you do. While early on you gave many hints, there was nothing of any real value to provide direction. If someone is working on the assumption that the wheel is based on spring tensions, and you know otherwise based on your decoding, think how helpful that would be to that person so they don't potentially waste months or years on that endeavor. I think everyone agrees there is a prime mover that does the weight lifting in a typical overbalanced wheel design, but what no one is either willing to say, or has determined, is what the core/basic force is within the prime mover. Is it CF from a dropping/swinging weight, momentum exchange from an impact, etc. That alone would help builders immensely.
DeleteI am not objecting any of your studies or dismissing anything. Study, attack and do whatever you want. Have I ever said "do not study the codes"?
DeleteBut let me explain my thoughts again;
John and you are keep telling a false statement about Bessler, which I cannot stand to hear anymore.
He never mentioned about leaving a code for posthumous acknlowledgment. He never said something like this.
You THINK he left a code. You read his work, look at his drawings and FEEL like he did planted something in his graphics and text... It is your point of view.
Just let me tell you, my humble point of view;
Bessler, in order to sell his machine, showed his secret to another person for gods sake!
Why the hell did he do that? It was his grand plan of revealing his codes?... Or he was desperate to sell his machine?
We know, long after the event in Kassel, He invited s'Gravesande to his home to show his last machine. Why is that?
Well, tell me my humble opinion;
Because he was trying to sell his god damn machine!
or
...
...
...
was it a part of his
...
grand
plan...? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cphNpqKpKc4)
In the first place, if you ask me, their simply is no need for a code considering the nature of the build...
DeleteSecondly, you just can't progress in with your build with imaginary codes as the codes just can't tell the shape, size and dimension of internal parts or even the secret arrangement or movement, for that matter...
Thirdly, Existence of the codes is favoured by only those that don't have any clue or idea about how Bessler wheel functions, basically...
Bessler could have changed his name just to avoid ill-luck and this may not have anything to do with the alleged codes... Usage of code system may be contemplated by some just to add a sense of mystery or simply to boost viewership or improve their book sale... Bessler was a genuine man and he gave away many valuable clues which is ungrapable by those who advocate codes to reel away from shame of not able to solve the mystery or it could just be a delay tactics...
Bessler took great care to ensure that no one peeps inside during demo... Because one glance is enough to reveal... I agree portraits hold pictorial clues... But just no hidden clues anywhere...
MT drawings show a lot in pictorial form but not through codes... And as long as one insists on codes no progress can be made...
It is like having secret mafia group working to prevent others from getting at the truth before they can...
Talking about clues just sounds of very pathetic condition existing in this otherwise great blog...
The key is in knowing how our solar system functions... What powers and coordinates it's perpetual motion...
Extremely sorry, but this code principle isn't going to lead us anywhere except the failure path...
Why the hell we hang on to codes to sort out a movement based on a very artistic arrangement of specially designed components?...
God help...
Collaboration doesn’t work. I tried it with five other guys many years ago before BW forum had even appeared, but no one agreed with anyone else, each had their own ideas which they favoured so although we shared our design ideas in a friendly waym we still went our own way.
DeleteYellow I’m just publishing my opinion at this stage but I get your point, I should either publish examples or better still proof or keep silent until I do publish stuff.
He showed his design to Karl but only because he had to. Karl offered his patronage on one condition, he must be allowed to verify for his own satisfaction that Bessler was not lying. His highly regarded reputation would have been destroyed if he had later discovered that Bessler was a fraud.
Suresh, I have spent many years trying build a PM wheel long before I first began to suspect the existence of coded information. Once I found one code I began to look for others. I’m not saying that the only way is to decipher the codes, it’s just the way I am now trying to find the way to the solution. With hundreds of people all trying to find the solution, we need all these different approaches, including some such as your own preferred method. Hopefully one of them will result in success.
I’m not posting stuff about codes to mystify or to sell more books, I just write what I believe in, just as we all do. I wish all of us the very best of luck and may any of us become the winner, I don’t need it to be me although I would like it, but most importantly we need the solution now.
JC
Yes until you prove, the code is just your opinion. If you find a code, that is your or Oystein's glorious achievement.
DeleteBut
Firstly;
Bessler never mentioned about a code. Period.
Secondly;
You are the number one expert on this subject. There will be newcomers to hear your ideas and progress. Your voice is very valuable for us.
We are already trying to prove something accepted as impossible, when we add another layer of an unproven idea, the whole BW subject becomes repulsive to the people. It becomes something floating and unfounded. We should make the subject more grounded.
Any time someone with decoding experience see's Bessler's writings, they know there is code in there. What it is remains to be determined, but it is there and that is a fact. I believe others play it down or dismiss because they are incapable of understanding. Keep up the hard work John.
DeleteDear Mr. John.
ReplyDeleteYour site often does not allow entries.
You're a document specialist for J. Bessler. I can not compare to you.
Mr. John, I think all this is more simple. Codes are complicated matters.
"" Therefore V must be equal to 1 "- J. Collins. I think that = IV and it can refer to the correct form for the wheel construction: 5 nodes are 4 against nodes, but 55 can mean N3 and ƐN. That's my opinion..
"My small book starts with a small size, but it grows significantly, because valuable symbols are partially expanded. This expansion develops partly according to the extension "- Bessler. It is consistent with what he says" weights are delivered at right angles to the axis "- Bessler.
"You will see a miracle from God working as I described it" - Bessler.
"There is much more in my pendulum than it is at first glance" - Bessler. That is why G. Leibniz wrote: Preserving the direction - "if Deskartes knew about this principle, he would have fallen into the harmony of the previously established".
"Use your imagination, thinking about God's symbolic pendulum" - Bessler.
Mr. John, as you can see, we have - the difference in the way - and - similarity, the approach to the correct principle.
"A future that may not be achieved until it goes away" Bessler.
So the past must - back -. Maybe it will be 2019?
Meanwhile, thank you John.
I apologize to whom I offended, I did not want to be rude and conceited but to push things forward.
Dear Mr. Anonymous.
DeleteYou have quoted Bessler above but these are not quotes I have seen before.
Can you please provide the source for each quote as you have written them? I mention this because there are sources out there that are not reliable and sometimes "quotes" are simply the writers "interpretations". I believe it is important that we are able to distinguish between real Bessler quotes by reputable translations such as Johns ect and others. That way the information available to the researcher will remain pure and untainted with unverified 'opinion and wishful thinking' that sometimes is quoted erroneously.
Mr. Anonymous
DeleteThere are a lot of non-copyrighted publications on the Internet that contain quotes that I have used and are unreliable sources. They are loose interpretations of writers and mine, which I used.
Let me wait for the opinion Mr. John on his return from the trip.
John Colllins states that Bessler's Poetica Apologia is written in the form of rhyming couplets, in simple rhyme. Maybe it was just a mental exercise for him. Just something to do. One thing I don't understand; I thought if something was written in code, you wouldn't be able to read a single word of it. But, seams like anybody can read it that want's too. How is that possible, if it's written in code? Plus, the information that he has passed along to us is so vague, and unhelpful, there really isn't any need to encode it any way, is there? Sam Peppiatt
DeleteIn my next post I’ll detail legitimate sources and also Bessler’s offspring. I will post once I’m back.
DeleteJC
J
What is described in Apologia poetica is exactly in detail what happens in the wheel.
ReplyDeleteI agree. He sarcastically explains the mechanism using metaphors.
DeleteThe trouble with metaphors you don’t get a full understanding until you have the whole picture but by then it’s too late!
DeleteJC
Not when you are on the right track...
DeleteYou may not believe, but sometimes I do feel that bessler has been too liberal in giving away many, many things... Through indirect references... he has definitely taken hell a lot of risk in revealing... there is enough there for anyone to achieve success provided he sincerely works on the correct path... We seem to lack that unconventional thinking... Like Newton or Einstein... we don't give heed to others ideas... we don't spare that much time and devotion... We are too business minded and very clever in worldly matters... Or, you can say, too sophisticated and specialized... we lack that natural thinking and approach...
Bessler had a mission... He wanted to improve the society by contributing something... He dedicated his entire life for a cause... He was a medic, too... He truly believed in the divine... But, some ill-luck always pestered him to the end... And, he had to finally pay a heavy price for some mistake done in the past...
Coming to the build, there was a lot of metal clashing noises in the wheel... As if a pipe moved over another... These sounds were definitely the result of the so many activities happening inside... Like swinging, banging, lifting, falling, dragging, etc.,..
All which go to tell so many metallic parts employed and also the automatic coordination amongst them... Active components... Working one against another... Never resting...
A perfect example of utilizing gravity in the most efficient way, isn't it?...
Let us all rededicate ourselves and try to strive like Bessler... not to forget, think like Bessler...
I don't think there is any proof that Bessler wanted to improve society. Please share specific extracts from his works if you know of any.
DeleteLike most during that time, he was likely more concerned about self preservation (eating, shelter, health). If he was such a humanitarian he would have given away his wheel instead of asking a king's ransom for it, and what did he do when he could not get it, he hid it from the world, taking the secret to his grave with him. Like everyone at that time, you followed the church or else. No there is no proof that Bessler was anything other than a person trying to survive at a time of poor human condition.
You are right... Finally, he died of poverty... He even didn't have much to eat...
ReplyDeleteWell, there is a mention about some school for engineers... He wanted to start training people in specialized trade s if I am not wrong... He needed money for the same hence the sale of the Wheel was crucial...
The end story is quite pathetic...
He invented many things... He was honest... Hard working... Very skilled... He infact, wanted to impart that skill to others...
Most of the famous scientists from that era were aristocrats, but he was not.
ReplyDeleteI really don't think he was a bad person. I really understand his motives.
Bessler’s wheel ran like clockwork....Hmmm, (Clock-work). Well, there’s your answer. Each compartment had a clockwork type configuration that allowed hanging weights to remain out of the center of gravity.
ReplyDeleteNo wonder he was so secretive about what made his wheel turn. That’s why he wanted all this money up front so that, by the time that the would be buyer found out the truth, he would be long gone on a little row boat to China!!! So, it was just a big clock that was secretly hidden in plain sight!
GENIUS!!!
Ran like clockwork is just an expression that probably existed during his time, that, or he coined it.
DeleteFraud is highly unlikely.
ReplyDeleteI am going to write my mostly scientific thoughts on this when I find some free time today.
Bessler was a visionary... When the truth is finally revealed, he should be held as one of the Greatest inventors of all time.
ReplyDeleteNo, absolutely not. He has withheld valuable information that would have great impact on technological progress of the human race. The disadvantage that we have suffered as a result of his action is, in my opinion, inexcusable. He should be removed from history and the one who reveals the wheel should be seen as the inventor. Bessler has deliberately ignored that opportunity. He should have published.
DeleteWhoever finds it has probably spent the same amount of effort to build it as he did.
Marinus.
Something was supposed to be recognized by someone familiar with what it was and then they were supposed to figure out how the bessler wheel worked from that within 90 seconds, not 50 or more years . That was a type of catapult that has been erased from history and now no one knows that it existed, how it could be solved if no one knows what it was based on, I do not know. Saying that I do not know what John has.
ReplyDeleteIf someone out there in the world truly has the secret to how Bessler’s wheel worked, wouldn’t it be more beneficial for that person to anonymously put the secret on line so that everyone could benefit from it? Think about it, who would want all that mundane attention? If you had a secret that would benefit the lives of billions of people, would you keep it to yourself until someone handed over the Crown Jewels?
ReplyDeleteIs money and recognition really that important?
Yes, money is very important. That sounds "evil" to you may be, but what if we use that money for others, for inventing new machines, saving lives, etc..
DeleteBessler thought to build a church for example. That doesn't sound evil to me.
It's all about the money.
DeleteIt was the most important thing to Bessler too.
DeleteSaving lives ... Orffyrean ship ...
DeletePLMKRN
So everyone here is evil and greedy, since noone is telling anything?
ReplyDeleteYou got that right.
DeleteSo you think this wheel will remove evil on this planet?
DeleteWell, spoiler alert, no wheel will change human nature.
Just prepering my findings. There can disclose it ALL only once. There will be no any second attempts possible.
DeletePLMKRN
It is a treasure hunt. It is no more than logic that everybody wants to find it for himself. A reward would be in place but where do you get it? That will be your next problem.
ReplyDeleteMarinus.
Part of the magic that he brings, is that he proved that it can be done.... How large is a dream that can capture your imagination for so long? Yes, he was selfish, but still there is a value to dreamers that change things. The only ones who do change things, are the ones who think they can. I, for one, would never had such a thought that this was possible without his works. The best of my times has been in searching for that special motion that just might possibly be what we are all looking for. So, in my humble opinion, he definitely deserves a place in history.
ReplyDeleteTrue! I also would not be searching if he had not done wat he did. Since almost no one believes it, nobody, except for us, is looking for it. We are with only a few so chances are high. And if someone proves again it is possible, then that person should be praised for his effort. Not Bessler.
DeleteThe one who reveals the wheel will prove that Bessler was there first. His cryptographic clues will become clear. It will also be clear then that he actually blackmailed his own race. This knowledge is so important that I consider it as negligence towards his own species. He may be mentioned in history but he should not be thanked or recognized. That glory should go to you, when you find it. :)
Marinus.
What is not fully understood by us is that he not only built it he has left ample clues for us... And, if he was alive for a longer period he would have sold or revealed it, sooner or later... If not for the cruel hands of destiny that snatched him away untimely... Now think, can he be blamed for this?...
ReplyDeleteBessler, killed by the very force which he tried to exploit to power his wheel. How ironic! Was this mother nature's revenge?
DeleteDo you think some of the remains of Bessler’s wheels are out there somewhere buried under the ground? Is there any clues as to where he destroyed the wheels? Maybe we could start searching the place where he last had his wheels working.
ReplyDeleteNot Bessler has withheld something from humanity, but Landgrave Karl von Hessen-Kassel. He supposedly saw the inside of the wheel and he could easily have paid the 100,000 Taler demanded by Bessler.
ReplyDeleteBessler has sought recognition. And the best recognition is (then and now) money.
I understand Bessler very well and understand his behavior. A humanity that prefers to pay millions to athletes, actors, and other useless people, and a truly great invention should be given away for nothing, simply did not deserve this great invention.
Bessler did not demand an exorbitant sum. Landgrave Karl could have really easily paid that.
ovaron
Karl knew how simple it was and probably decided not to pay the price and let someone else buy it. In fact Bessler screwed up by telling that it was a very simple (?) construction. That put everybody on hold. Everybody was waiting for someone else to buy it. It is very logical that he never sold it.
ReplyDeleteThe revelation of the wheel will send a completely new breath of fresh air through our understanding of nature. Without any doubt it should be at least awarded the Nobel Prize for Physics. However, if I or you will find it, that is probably not going to happen.
Marinus.
I agree. Karl's comment reflects surprise and disappointment.
DeleteI wish some body, any body, could give me one thing, just one piece of information, gleamed from all of your codes, that would help to explain how Bessler's wheel worked. But, sense no one can; they must not be of much help.
ReplyDeleteSam Peppiatt
Yes I can, the codes are symbolic metaphors in the Apologia poetica prose describing in detail what happens and all you have to do is use a little imagination together with a mecahanical aptitude and persiverance,you will be able to work it out!
ReplyDeleteGreat! That really narrows it down. Is there a parts list too? Peppiatt
ReplyDeleteYou’ll have more success building your own gravity powered wheel than trying to figure out Bessler’s codes. Even if you started when you were five years old until 100 years old, I’m 100% convinced that no one has the answer. Build your own wheel, try methods that no one has thought of yet, and then keep it to yourself. Or, just share it with everyone.
ReplyDeleteIf you have the time and money to waist on a pursuit that will only bring grey hair and frustration, then by all means, do it. Or just make your own wheel and be happy with the successful results.
I agree with you Perp. I just can't get my head around the codes. They sure look to be there but it takes a special eye and reasoning to figure out. I'll stick with the hands on approach. This is how Bessler did it. The codes only came later.
DeleteWhat’s really interesting to me is; in the last 2,686,608 hours, not one person has figured out how Bessler’s wheel worked. How many more hours will it take?
ReplyDeleteYou will get the aha moment to all your questions when you close your eyes on this earth for the last time. Time is running out for some of us and I think Bessler knew his time was running out as well except he was blessed with a vision to be able to finish his wheel. He left a ray of hope that something existed but has yet to be found again.
DeleteAlas though Ecclesiastes 1:4-11
A generation goes, and a generation comes,
but the earth remains forever.
The sun rises, and the sun goes down,
and hastens to the place where it rises.
The wind blows to the south
and goes around to the north;
around and around goes the wind,
and on its circuits the wind returns.
All streams run to the sea,
but the sea is not full;
to the place where the streams flow,
there they flow again.
All things are full of weariness;
a man cannot utter it;
the eye is not satisfied with seeing,
nor the ear filled with hearing.
What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done,
and there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there a thing of which it is said,
“See, this is new”?
It has been already
in the ages before us.
There is no remembrance of former things,
nor will there be any remembrance
of later things yet to be among those who come after.
Empty vessels, little wool.
ReplyDelete