When your wheel finally works, spinning continuously, with nothing more than the force of gravity enabling its action, what will you do, how will you proceed? Your options would appear to include sharing the secret freely or patenting the design, or finding a sponsor to help develop the machine into a commercial project.
I suppose it depends on whether you want a lot of money, or just enough, or if you dont need any - and when do you want it, immediately or can you wait a couple of years? Also do you want fame, or just acknowledgement for your achievement, or are you content to remain anonymous?
These questions fill the minds of all those hundreds of people who have and still are seeking the solution to Bessler’s wheel. You only have to look back at the history of the search for perpetual motion to discover that the same concerns occupied their minds from the earliest times. So what is the answer?
I have never liked the patent system for this device. It costs money to patent and yes, you may say that you will receive many times it’s cost over the years, even if you have to wait a couple of years. But there are more concerns; such simple technology invites copycat machines, patent infringements and patented improvements, each of which can leave you in the starting blocks, while your competitors rake in their rewards. Policing patent infringements is a costly and lengthy task with little chance of financial compensation, even if you only go for a limited patent protection instead of worldwide patent protection.
Licensing the use of a patent is a possibility but could still fall foul of patent infringements and patented improvements. A patent licensing agreement is a legal contract that grants the licensee certain rights regarding the use or sale of your patented invention. Licensing agreements can be: exclusive - giving the licence holder the sole right to exploit the patent.
So what’s the best course of action? I have my own optionse and there are numerous possibilities for anyone who wants sufficient financial rewards to live comfortably and help out members of his or her family. The worldwide media is hungry for stories and will pay for them,. The term "media", includes print media (books, magazines, newspapers), television, radio, movies, video games, music, cell phones, various kinds of software, and the Internet. All of these mediums are like a voracious animal and each requires feeding many times, and they pay well.
So my advice is avoid patents and share the information you have, as widely as you can. What ever design you make public, will always be improved upon, so thinking that by publishing the design, no one can patent it, doesn't necessarily apply to any improvement, but at least the basic concept will be out there and cannot be unpublished.
JC
Hello John, good reflection that I share in general terms.
ReplyDeleteit is necessary to diffuse but not to show the internal mechanism, after the one or those who want to see pays or buys.
The best solution according to me, in France we can set up companies called SAS, which have the possibility, among other things, to own either a patent or an X or Y machine.
If in the ongoing protests, one becomes effective, I will opt for this option, sell part of the shares or all, you will have to be very rich lol.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
If a prototype in progress, becomes effective, I will choose this option, sell part of the shares or all, you will have to be very rich lol.
ReplyDeleteI think there are two options for a gravitywheel. Disclose or keep it yourself and sell/use energy (is this evil?)... Gaining something from a physical gravity wheel implementation should almost be impossible. Once the design is out, everyone will copy it.
ReplyDeleteBessler had that problem, we would have the same problem. Nothing has changed imo.
Yes I agree, yellow. History repeats itself.
DeleteJC
A patent has the sole purpose of officially confirming that you were the first to make a true replica of the Bessler wheel. You can only become rich through this invention by marketing this circumstance well. The wheel itself will not be of much use. The benefit lies mainly in the fact that gravity can be used as an energy source AND to prove that Bessler was not a liar and that all scientists were wrong. (Are not the astonished faces of the dumbfounded scientists a great reward as well ?) But since gravity is the weakest of the four basic forces, it is not to be expected that with a two-meter-wheel much energy can be extracted. Everyone can figure out how huge a Besslerwheel would have to be to supply a household of four people with energy.
ReplyDeleteThe best thing is to make the invention public domain, to write a book about it, possibly to sell plans of this very first replica etc.
Anyone who dreams of getting rich with a patent will experience a nightmare, IMHO. So it's even better to go the same way as Bessler himself and try to sell the secret dearly. However, I do not think somebody will buy it. Maybe the royal society? :-))
ovaron
Well written ovarian!
DeleteJC
I always liked Jim's plan. Submit the well written patent papers and the same day hit the media hard! Send out mailings, preventing the secret from being suppressed.
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ReplyDeleteYes to both questions, I think! It depends which pages you are referring to. I have over 600 Bessler related pages on my computer and I’ve looked at everyone of them many times over the last ten years or so.
DeleteJC
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DeleteI thought a patent application on the Bessler wheel was sent to the German patent and trademark office in 1879, containing all the information on how it worked.
ReplyDeleteReally? Do you know if it worked?
DeleteJC
Yes, it would have looked like a storks bill with two springs where one of the springs locked up and was set to unlocked at six o'clock where it swung back onto the other spring. A Bessler wheel can be made to work with a single storks bill as the mechanism, that would be the 1711 type based on the catapult that worked like a modern skeet thrower.
DeleteI think it was sent in, I will get into that further after I have a working model of it to show.
The situation has become very dynamic. You are sympathetic John and have a lot of knowledge in this matter. I understand John, I'm not ready.
DeleteBessler warns that human greed is a danger, it is a bad root.
In my opinion the matter is simple: the discovery of a new physical principle belongs to the whole of humanity. It is a natural wonder left for a man by his creator.
Bessler should, it was his responsibility to reveal it to the world. He wrote "Apologia Poetica" as an apology for a sinful ending.
Bessler said that the principle he discovered is the only one in existence and there is no way that it can work differently.
Also, G. Leibniz said that there is a need to establish this principle as original or primitive because in some parts the case escapes or is a miracle.
I'm sure he saw the device inside and paid Bessler for it. Therefore, one should study G. Leibniz's books, letters, drawings and his numerous portraits.
I think that we are always kept very close to the truth about this extraordinary phenomenon of nature.
This principle was created by God for the benefit of all people and should not be patented. ⤴ ⤴.
I sense that two mutually exclusive facts coexist. Paradox is not a paradox ...
Potential energy = kinetic energy nothing new in physics. The distortion in the middle causes variation and allows the reception of kinetic energy on the wheel axis. Bessler explains that this way exists.
Similarly, says G. Leibniz, that all possible things exist. This is the burden Bessler imposed on each of us.
I admire the educated people of that period, that when he gave the word that he would not reveal the secret, he kept it to his own death. Maybe there are people today but these are individuals. It is difficult for a friend who does not lie, do not cheat and was not greedy. Even in our own families, we are often alone. Who on earth will be a friend of an unattractive and stranger?
Hold on to the truth, she always releases.
Start with amen.
I will contact you in the future.
Ah! A useful post appears!
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that, at very least, most all have will have given this very latest of moderator/scholar Collins' some minimal thought.
Thus far, my own best would be to crowd-fund for the precise amount as Bessler required, in his thalers of that time as adjusted for equivalent value, and not merely inflation. No more, no less. Such an amount could be determined precisely by monetary science, by sure and simple calculation.
I can't imagine that any but ones insane with jealousy or some like-wickedness, would or could disagree, and dare to lay out charges of greed or unfairness, etc.
Yes, once again it would be that some ONE would have to 'pay-to-get' but, in this case it would be all doing-so; the crowd funders themselves participating in buying the freedom of the Wheel Secret for all.
However, also I think that The Mighty Establishment Itself consisting in-part of Big Petro; Big Agra; Big Doctoring (Hippocrates buried deep long ago, speaking of "greed"); Big Science (Big reps ever-astrutting and pronouncing, DOWN in flames!); Big Attorning; Big Chemo; Big Pharma; Big Power; Big Usuring; Big EVERYTHING!!! would initially presume 'ho-hum, just another fraud' because, of course, Big Science said-so and laugh until disclosure, but after . . . go barking mad/insane with bloodiest rage, vengeful fury and everlasting vindictiveness!!
"KNOW your enemy!" - famous and wise advisement mostly ignored.
As given all that and much else left unstated, I ask: could the receiver of any crowd provided funds even enjoy the slimmest hope of a chance to survive it, skin intact still? Hmm?
That would be my main concern, with my crafty little pat plan.
If just one of those Big's desire to have a discloser's posterior made dead and buried deep, they could have their desire met by any of hundreds of means with approximately ZERO accountability. (No?)
"Obvious truths need not be proved." - maxim of Law, original in Latin
I assert with conviction, that the ONLY safe way to insert THE SECRET into the World and survive the trick, would be by the discoverer understanding and accepting full-well that he (or she) had best never reveal his (or hers) own involvement in it, or else!
Of course once done, the "Greed is an evil root" would in this single case at least, be put-to-the-sword, and Bessler with all of his three-centuries-long history 'till now, would be released of that guilt plus . . . PROVED good to his word and honest all along!
So, by the discoverer his (or her) anonymity and sacrifice would be the one safe route for the taking.
I am quite sure that most here (with the apparent ONE exception of the directly above Anonymous of 1 November 2018 at 18:09) will likely disagree. Be my guest.
(Speaking now candidly: what joyousness it would be, watching all of the would-be vanquished discoverers biting at one another like starved, cheated red-eyed rats, all singularly claiming THEY were the one true discoverer or, would/could have been!
Why, such would tear each other to pieces in furies of pent-up frustrations all released at once, in the endeavor gnashing this way and that! OH JOY! The spectacle!! What thrice-times-deserved hell! "Greed is an evil root" indeed.)
CHEERS to you all!
Welcome back James. The thought did occur to me to take your advice, but would it be legal? I’m not sure if I could raise five million or more! Just kidding, it is something to consider, but only if all else fails.
DeleteI too, have worried about the reaction by the Mighty Establishment, but as some once said, ‘once the genie is out of the bottle it can’t be put back’, you can’t unlearn that information, so the only cause for concern might be that some lone individual might take action against the discoverer.
And finally we all imagine with the greatest glee, the dumbfounded red-faced reaction by the ‘stiff fops’ of the scientific establishment. I enjoyed your own poeticly inflammable description of all those other would-be discoverers who were beaten to the finishing line, James. But I think you do them an injustice, I believe that most would feel a sense of relief that they can rest easy knowing that the solution has at last been found and they can be proud that they stood up for Bessler when the rest of the world castigated him merselessly.
JC
Who would participate in a crowd funding? Fraud is much easier today than it was in Bessler's time. As long as the mechanism is not revealed, no one will participate, because a fraud is currently considered to 99.9999 ...% as certain.
Deleteovaron
Just an idea, here, in Texas, we have electric suppliers that allow for you to sell electricity to them as a net recovery value..... just a few pennies per KW. I have set up a reasonably efficient generator hooked up with a cog tooth belt to the axle. The charge will be sent to a small bank of batteries that will then release the energy back into the power grid and actually turn my electric meter backwards. Tesla already has a battery setup available for use with their roof solar panels and has options to hook up other energy supplies. i.e. wind generator or wheel etc. Once you establish that you are generating power and can show evidence of that event the next step could be as simple as having a few trusted friend built a small structure to place a 16 ft wheel inside. Once a number of them have completed their own systems and proven the activities. I believe that if we all contacted the local news services at the same time, with the same announcement it would be difficult to shut down all of us. The fabrication of those first units would be from extruded fiberglass tubing as a kit, and after building a few it would be the proof of concept and tweaking of the same. The will be many improvement that will occur as we start to understand why it is working and how to make the wheel more efficient. Just one idea
DeleteThank you, John.
DeleteI am encouraged that you did not find my little opus too terrible a thing. Yes, mine is a general outlook rather dark and sad, as all apparently circles 'round that greed as an evil root thing.
A few more thoughts:
The simple act of writing a book would seem a riskless way of gaining a bit of reward, in terms of both fame and the lucrative but, could not the too-big Powers easily shut even that down? The one bit auguring well for this however, is that all would "know" it to be impossible and obviously fraudulent because told-so by authority. Only after out would the true horror of the situation dawn, and create it's inevitable delight of result of highest anxiety.
Another approach I've thought of might be to employ lowlly, mere entertainment as a wedge into general awareness.
No entertainers know the value of a secret better than do performing magicians. One of these is currently listed by Forbes as a billionaire, or now very close to it. (Try that with acting.)
An old friend of mine just happens to have been his genearl manager for a decade or so. (Contacts can prove useful.)
I can imagine a show where the Bessler Wheel might be used in some act involving the solving of say 'The Greatest Magic Secret of Them ALL.' (Here, in old Las Vegas, entertainment pays big and unstintingly for real, top-drawer stuff.)
Also, our own Penn & Teller here can sniff-out deception pronto. Also, we would have to add The Amazing Randi himself, to the pile of examining skeptics.
A final act that might be the revelation of such a thing, would get and deserve television network exposure world-wide (This particular individual I am thinking of has had plenty of such over decades.)
Sure, it would be only entertainment but, it would kill about three birds with a single throw of a stone.
Only slowwwwly would the inevitable trade-mark horror leak out to the Scientific Smart Set, with the predictable and delightful stultifying results ensuing.
Speaking of that Strutting Loathsomeness Itself, I found just recently an especially nasty piece of libelous trash as generated by one of their own. (I am sure you already know of it, but many might not.)
cont. below . . .
continuing . . .
DeleteIt seems that one Alejandro Jenkins has recently created one of the very worst ever. It is what some refer to as a 'cheap shot.'
This junk literature consists of one article which he has most revealingly titled "The mechanical career of Councillor Orffyreus, confidence man"
It appears on pages no less prestigious than those of The Cornell University Library, under the section "Physics > History and Philosophy of Physics"! A gratis .pdf of it may be accessed here: https://arxiv.org/abs/1301.3097
The Scientific Smart Set seem to be going the same way as the World Press: into knowing, near-criminal misrepresentation of reality.
In it he repeats every single libel ever created against Bessler and, obviously takes greatest care to exclude any and all that might be exculpatory, and thus contra- his "Confidence Man" theme. (And this personage is a physicist?)
This guy nets big creds with his like-fellows, being a hot-shot young one, hailing originally from our South America. His living visage may be found easily. It's worth a search for the examining. (We ALL eventually grow the faces we deserve, saints only being excepted.)
I must say that some other of the respondents here have presented some novel and good ideas for proceeding though what is likely to be a most dangerous thicket of poisonous thorniness.
And finally, I must say I appreciated this of yours, John, and thank you for it:
"I enjoyed your own poeticly inflammable description of all those other would-be discoverers who were beaten to the finishing line, James. But I think you do them an injustice, . . ."
It may be so, just as you say but, I cannot be so kindly to such, as judging by what I've seen and experience of them.
Sorry. I wish it were otherwise but my humor and patience ran-out some years ago, after the final BWF fun over there. (I halted that march of futility at precisely 1000 posts. GUESS what the 1001st is to be - short, sweet and to the point?)
(It is so. Only a handful of the High Greenied Sorts rule the entire of BWF now, these mutually supporting one another with presses, and in concert, suppressing those thought not of their own high "estimable" stripe. What? They would ADMIT to such a charge?)
As always, CHEERS to all.
J.M.
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ReplyDeleteSorry Stephen, I’m not seeing it. Can you elaborate?
DeleteJC
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DeleteI think the safest thing is to sell to the American government. At least they have the muscle to control and protect the device.
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember you suggesting that before Trevor, but why would the US government buy it?
DeleteJC
Why not John, it's the perfect green energy solution and the country that has the energy has the power to wheel and deal especially if they are going to lead the world toward a higher standard of living. By now it must be realized that nuclear power is becoming a toxic nightmare.
DeleteWhy should they buy something that can be copied instantly?
DeleteIf the wheel's design is as simple as Bessler and Karl suggested, it must be very hard to sell the wheel.
One way of gaining something out of it could be mass-producing and selling your own wheels very cheap.
The severe health drawbacks of wind turbines means that PM is going to outclass them in terms of power generation 24/7 without interruption.
ReplyDeleteThis sounds presumptuous but I am only proclaiming this from a position of strength.
ReplyDeleteIf the US govt were to buy it, the enormity of the event would generate a lot of different reactions. Unfortunately, the WORLD has an oil based economy. But, as mentioned earlier, they would have the horsepower to set it out into the public with some systematic program. There is another option.... and that would be to work with Native American... American Indians, they have a special exemption and have sovereign control over many aspects of their life. I think it would be great irony on the world, if the Cherokee Nation controlled the production of the wheels, and the release of electricity. Talk about playing Cowboys and Indians The Cherokee Nation owns most of the Hard Rock Cafe franchises and the land under them is now territory. The production of the physical wheels themselves by this group would generate a tremendous amount of good paying jobs and their peoples could protect the technology like no one else on earth. Just an idea
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteI've found a video you might like, it's the faux news report from the Bad Karlshaven pageant.
For some reason I can't find a direct link, but if you type in...
Download Johann Bessler videos from Youtube - OMGYoutube.net
A playlist comes up when the site is clicked on, scroll down to the picture of the news reporter. It's the one from Bad Karlshafen Forum.
It does have auto generated English sub-titles, but they're not very good.
I found the video, but the sub-titles were pretty bad! Fascinating video though.
DeleteJC
Yes, some of the other videos are interesting as well.
DeleteI like the simulation using the "jolly blacksmith" toy axially, food for thought.
I think the problem with the sub-titles is, they are not only auto-generated, which is bad enough, but then they have to be translated, a double whammy of errors!
I do not know if I understood correctly, I read that Bessler after selling the wheel (and took the money before showing it) would show his drawings to the world on the book "Maschinen tractate", does not seem very honest .... .. !!!
ReplyDeleteNo the original idea was that if Peter the Great, Czar of Russia, bought the wheel, Bessler would include a ‘Great Treatise’ showing the design of numerous useful machines, all of which Bessler had worked on. This was thought to be a good incentive to persuade Peter to buy as he was trying to drag Russia into the 18th C in all ways including mechanical engineering. MT was never published and was intended to form a teaching aid to the students he hoped would enroll in his non-religious apprentices school, which he hoped to found with the money he received from the wheel.
DeleteJC
JC
If I were to get my wheel working; I would try to explain to all of you how it works, Sam Peppiatt
DeleteGood for you Sam, and good luck.
DeleteJC
Thanks John Collins, and it will all be your fault for writing that book, Sam
DeleteGood morning, this is an excerpt from his site (http://www.orffyre.com/mt.html) where I seemed to have understood what I wrote a little above .....
ReplyDeleteBessler created a set of illustrations and accompanying commentary describing his search for perpetual motion. This body of work is called "Maschinen Tractate".
Bessler's illustrations explore many concepts and ideas and depict mechanical, thermal, wind and fluid systems.
After selling his wheel, Bessler intended to publish his book of illustrations with the secret mechanism revealed in every detail. But the wheel was never sold and "Maschinen Tractate" appears tantalisingly incomplete.
A reproduction of Bessler's "Maschinen Tractate" is available from John Collins here. The book contains reproductions of the original illustrations and includes a translation of Bessler's accompanying hand written notes.
Hi anon. My apologies, I did not see this until now because I was reading comments on the following blog. The website you read that on belongs to ovvyus and although everything relating to facts is correct, that particular comment relates to my opinion as expressed more than twenty years ago in my first book, Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?
DeleteSince then the details have become clearer and I believe that facts stand as I described them above. Sorry fir the confusion.
JC