RAI, the Italian state owned public service broadcaster who commissioned the "Orffyreus" documentary, have said that FarmStudios cannot send me a DVD of the finished documentary as they don't want anyone outside of production to see it before it's aired, which is fair enough in my opinion. But it does mean that I won't be able to offer copies to anyone for the time being. Of course should pirated copies appear at some point in the future, then there is nothing one can do about that. I am to be given a preview in the next few days, so I'll report about it as and when I can.
My current position with the Bessler build is stationary, like the wheels I've built so far! I've got the flu. I have a plan mapped out for when I can get back to work and it is looking promising - how many times have I heard myself say that before? I am still working with the same basic concept which I worked out some eighteen months ago and I'm still convinced that it is the way to go. It answers all the questions raised and I'm confident it will work. The mechanisms are complex in a way that would not be obvious to a spectator, such as Karl. I can see why he described them as simple. It's one thing to see the finished article and how it works - but quite another to work out how to get it to do what you want it to do, when you don't know the exact design or the dimensions.
In answer to my previous post about the pentagrams and the number 5s, in Bessler's works, I've come to the conclusion he was trying to point us to the alternative word for pentagram, reputedly used by the Pythagorians, which was pentalpha. Some people think of the pentagram as three interlaced triangles, but others describe it as having five upper case interlocking letter As, and that seem to me to be the more in line with Bessler's thinking. We have seen the interest in the besslerwheel forum in the famous 'A with legs': THE primemover? thread and this supports the idea.
It is well-known that Bessler used alternating letter As throughout his "Maschinen Tractate", sometimes with a straight cross-bar and sometimes with a bent one. He did not do this for any other reason than to point to its importance. I'm sure that this simple lever design is incorporated within the mechanism, and the successful design will require it.
" The mechanisms are complex in a way that would not be obvious to a spectator"
ReplyDeleteBear in mind that Bessler's first wheel was only three feet in diameter, and four inches across...
(as you well know, since it was in your book that I read it!)
Therefore, if the mechanism was that complicated, would Bessler have been able to build it small enough to fit into a three foot diameter wheel? I think not - Bessler could have chosen a six foot diameter wheel, or any other reasonable size, if he HAD to, but obviously he didn't. Just remember that four inch thickness and three foot diameter when thinking about your designs - Bessler only had carpentry and presumably very simple metalwork to work with, what is the smallest each part could have been, and how small would make parts, if you had a choice (as Bessler obviously did).
@ JC
ReplyDeleteHmmm...something tells me we're never going to see that Italian tv Bessler documenary! You mention you are going to "preview" it and I assume that will be over the web. I'm looking forward to your opinion of their Weissenstein wheel model.
Sorry to read of your health problems. Older persons have to be VERY careful with these mild, but stubborn winter flus because they can slowly turn into life threatening pneumonias.
Also sorry to read of your lack of progress with your wheel. Maybe it's time that you changed the approach you are using? Maybe you should start thinking in terms of 8 weighted levers, interconnecting cords, and tensioning springs? And, most importantly, maybe you should consider using an easy to learn stimulation program (like Working Model 2D) to help speed up your research? I found that when I finally made these changes, I went from zero progress to a very significant rate of progress and was, finally after decades, on the "right track". All I can say is that I wish I could have done this decades ago! But, as they say, "Better late than never".
I don't really attach that much significance to the A's with the bent cross bars. They are just decorative flourishes Bessler added to these letters to, perhaps, make them stand out a bit so that a reader would be able to find these starting letters quicker when viewing a drawing with several letters labeling various parts.
I consider things such as this to be part of the "cloud of distractions" that, unfortunately, prevent about 999 out 1000 mobilists from ever getting on the "right track" in their quest to rediscover Bessler's secret OB PM wheel mechanism. They are so desperate for clues, ANY clues, that they will latch onto the slightest oddity or inconsistency hoping that it will finally provide THE solution. These dead ends can waste so much valuable time.
If one wants to focus on something REAL, then focus on those TWO DT portraits EXCLUSIVELY. THE solution IS in them, but you had also better be building along with your analysis of the portrait symbols. There ARE precise reasons for certain items, angles, and ratios in those two portraits. Also, don't make the mistake of thinking you will find THE secret of Bessler's wheels without FULLY understanding the portrait synbols. You won't!
When you first see the symbols, they will seem quite random and mundane. Over the years, however, you will finally realize that they are all there for a specific reason related to various parts of a wheel's internal mechanics. As you begin to ACCURATELY decode them, you will also realize that you are finally on the "right track" and your understandng of the symbols will increase steadily as you get closer to your destination.
Here's a tidbit to get you started: That globe in the second portrait represents a one directional wheel. Note that it shows the southern hemisphere of our planet and this indicates it represents a one directional wheel turning CW. Next question you need to ponder: Why does Bessler hold the divider arms against the globe at that particular position?
Blimey JC, that told you! Doesn't TG know he's a guest? lol.
ReplyDeleteSo many clues, so little time. I wonder why bad clues live on? Common misconceptions about force and energy, I suppose. As John Cutter in "The Prestige" said, "Obsession is a young man's game."
ReplyDeleteWell that's odd! IE is working with comments etc again, so I guess I'll remove the warning at the top of the page.....then see if the problem returns!
ReplyDeleteJC
I'm so sorry if I sound "dogmatic". I don't really mean to. It's just that there is a tremendous amount of analytical ability out there in the PM community and it grieves me to see 99.99+ % of it WASTED! If it could be focused into ONE most probable design approach, the mystery of Bessler's wheels could have been solved centuries ago!
ReplyDeleteI see this situation somewhat analogous to the energy / mass streaming out of our Sun. 99.99+ % of it just radiates off into space and does nothing more than make our solar system known to other parts of the galaxy. If, however, our Sun's energy output could be focused into a single narrow directable beam, then it could be used to easily vaporize any moon or even planet it was sent toward in a matter of seconds! In a similar fashion, if we could focus the efforts of today's active mobilists onto the one design that most closely matches the DT portrait clues Bessler left us, then we should be able to get results much faster.
Considering that the inner mechanics of Bessler's wheels have remained a mystery for almost 300 years now, is it any wonder why the scientific orthodoxy so readily dismisses this entire subject?
Yes, maybe that "lone wolf" mobilist will emerge just in time for the 300th anniversary with THE solution. But, then again, maybe he won't and we'll be back to "business as usual" which means: NO progress other than unending discussions about history, biography, mysticism, etc. that are occasionally interrupted by the latest unworkable newbie designs and word wars between frustrated mobilists.
If Johann Bessler is viewing all of this from Heaven right now, I imagine that he is really not happy about the situation. I think he wants his secret to be rediscovered so he can have the accusation made by many that he was a liar and his wheels a hoax finally proven wrong.
You don't sound "dogmatic", you sound like an egotist that needs attention. If you have all the answers, prove it. Cause words are a dime a dozen. Nay, even less on the internet.
ReplyDeleteIMHO this is all one big lie anyway. Karl got duped and by the time he found out it was too late to do anything about it anyway. Bessler made sure of that by publishing a book as soon as Karl became his patron, telling the whole world about it. And what could Karl do once he knew? Hey world, I got taken in by a con artist, and a fellow countryman no less. That's right whole wide world, I'm a big dumb Kraut! Please, will you still respect me and do business with me? When the court heard Bessler was a bout to make another "machine", they took care of business. Hey Offyreus...
ReplyDeleteWha...what are you doing up here??!!!
AAAHHHHHH..................splat.
@ Anonymous
ReplyDeleteIf I was truly an attention seeking egotist, then I would be posting comments using my real name and claiming that I had already arrived and had a working wheel. I do not do those things. Rather, I only claim to finally be on the "right track" after many years of fruitless struggle. My hope is to get as many others on this same track as possible so that they will not waste their precious resources moving down dead end streets that will only lead to frustration and, ultimately, them quitting the search altogether. Also, I never claim to have invented anything. Anything I discover I will credit SOLELY to Johann Bessler because, without his prior work, I would not be writing any of this now!
Currently, I know of only four other people on this planet who are actually on the "right track" and most of them are closer to the desired destination than I am. Eventually one of us will find the complete design that Bessler used and will produce a "runner" from it. It really does not make much difference who finds it first. The important thing is that it is found. Obviously, the more mobilists on that "right track" the sooner that rediscovery will take place. I can't speak for JC, but I'm sure that he, as I, would like to see the rediscovery take place in his lifetime. 300 years of waiting is long enough.
Let's make it happen!
Aren't you getting a lot of attention? Is it not you that claims to have all the answers? You don't post under your real name in fear of looking like a fool. A masked bandit doesn't need to expose his face to revel in the attention he gets.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous
ReplyDeleteAgain, I do NOT claim to have "all the answers". If I did, then I would have a working wheel NOW. I don't, but I am 100% confident that I am finally on the "right track". If someone disagrees, then there is nothing I can do about it. That is his choice. All I can say is that I wish I knew decades ago what I know now...the amount of work I could have saved myself would have been enormous!
The FIRST thing one has to do if he wants to eventually solve the Bessler wheel mystery is to forget the MYTH that the weights on the descending side of a rotating overbalanced wheel MUST lose the exact same amount of energy / mass that is regained by the weights on the wheel's ascending side. Those that robotically promote this myth have not actually worked with overbalanced systems of weights and do not know what they are talking about.
The second myth one must eliminate from his mind is that it is not possible for a system of weights to be in a state of static equilibrium which places their CoM onto one side of a carrier wheel's axle and keeps it there during the wheel's rotation.
Bessler eventually realized the falsehood of these myths (or as he wrote: "...climbed higher on Jacob's Ladder and learned to shun all superstitions") and, furthermore, PROVED it by actually constructing genuine WORKING OB PM gravity wheels.
Another way to think about Bessler's wheels is that the CoM of their weights remained stationary during drum rotation because the Connectedness Principle constantly maintained the delicate equilibrium which existed between their interconnected weights. This then caused the invisible CoM to rotate CCW at the SAME rate as the drum rotated CW! Thus, the CoM of the weights had to always remain motionless as far as an outside observer (and, more importantly, the Earth's gravity field) was concerned.
He he he,..You guys crack me up!
ReplyDeleteAnd I still maintain that if you cannot get one set of weights to work,even slowly,then your wasting your time with four pairs.
ReplyDeleteEvery pair of weights has to help the motion or fill in the dead spots.
You cannot rob from one to help the other.
@ Trevor
ReplyDeleteI think you, like many others, have fallen into what I call the "Zwei Und Zwei Trap" (or the "Two By Two Trap"). Yes, Bessler wrote that his weights "came in pairs" such that as one weight took up an outer postion (that is, moved closer to the rim), the other weight took up a position closer to the axle. I have no problem with this description because that is exactly what happened inside of his wheels.
However, that does not mean that diametrically opposed weighted levers were directly connected to each other (not possible since nothing must pass through or even close to the axle) or that a wheel could be made to run with ONLY a single pair of diametrically opposed weights.
Bessler had to develop his Connectedess Principle because, during any 45° increment of drum rotation, 6 of a wheel's 8 weighted levers were continuously shifting about relative to their particular radial drum supports. Thus, these 6 moving weighted levers actually acted simultaneously with their motions being strictly coordinated by their interconnecting cords.
While descending side weights would move closer to the rim until they reached their rim stops at 3 o'clock, ascending side weights would only move closer to the axle until their levers' pivots reached the 9 o'clock position. Such a system will not operate with only two diametrically opposed weights. Such a wholistic system definitely will work with 8 or more weighted levers and perhaps with as few as 6 (for symmetry purposes, there should always be an even number of weighted levers). I limit my research to systems using 8 weighted levers.
What was going on inside of Bessler's wheels was more complicated than just the automatic actions of four isolated diametrically opposed pairs of weights.
TGness, you can't be on the right track. If you were, you'd have a runner. You aren't any closer to a solution than someone who has never tried.
ReplyDeleteI've shown in previous blog entries why your cord design fails. For example,now you say 4 weights lift a fifth weight. 4 weights can't lift a fifth weight because "not possible since nothing must pass through or even close to the axle", in your own words. So your concept would only work with 3 weights lifting a fourth, violating the sacred number 5.
I've already shown that the 3 weights that are supposed to be lifting would necessarily have to lift the weight behind and under themselves, as well as their own weight.
12 and 1:30 has to lift 12,10:30,9, and 7:30. 8 pounds nearing 12 and 1:30 has to lift 16 pounds, plus cord weight and lever weight in your design. (3 wouldn't be lifting 12, it's already touched the stop and is busy pushing the wheel.)
Be prepared for decades more of fruitless research! Although, I don't believe you are actually building this design. If you were, it would be obvious, when you saw it sitting there, why it can't work.
I'm sorry you are wrong!,..Every weight is responsible for its own motivation.
ReplyDeleteYou have fallen into the trap of over complication,..as Bessler warned,..It will run longer if it had no weights at all.
Doug wrote:
ReplyDelete"...you can't be on the right track. If you were, you'd have a runner. You aren't any closer to a solution than someone who has never tried."
I wish that I could reveal the full details of what I am working on, but it's just not possible with this blog format that limits us to verbal descriptions. What I can say is that everything I do has to be in strict harmony with the the second portrait clues as well as other clues in the Bessler literature.
As a one direction wheel's drum rotates CW through a 45° increment of motion there is MORE than enough gravitational potential energy lost by the 6:00, 7:30, 12:00, and 1;30 levers to lift BOTH the 9:00 and 10:30 weighted levers into the positions they will have when they reach the 10:30 and 12:00 positions of the drum. The problem is finding the right lever design and interconnecting cord scheme that will allow this transfer of energy / mass to occur with maximum efficiency.
There are a variety of clues in the two portraits that allow one to determine the design of the levers Bessler used and I AM busy determineing this now. Each possible lever I try must then be duplicated 8 times and these then inserted into a carrier wheel at 45° angular intervals around its axle. Then the interconnecting cords must be attached and spring tensions adjusted. Once this is done, the model wheel is released and the position of the CoM of all eight of its weights carefully monitored.
When one finally finds the correct lever design, the correcct cord scheme including its lever attachment points, and the correct spring attachment points and tensions, then the model wheel should be able to rotate through the 45° while keeping its weights' CoM continuously on the descending side. This rotation will, because of the constant excess loss of energy / mass by the sinking weights, cause the wheel to accelerate. Most importantly, after the 45° of rotation are completed all of the weighted levers will display the exact same orientations they had at the beginning of the increment. At that point the wheel's weighted levers are ready for the next 45° increment of drum rotation. If the process can occur for one increment of rotation, it will continue to take place for an infinite number of increments.
The models I am working with will keep their CoM on the descending side of the drum, but I am still having a problem getting ALL of the weighted levers to return to their starting orientations. This is a problem I continue to work on and which I expect to be resolved when I finally find the exact "magic" lever design and correct cord / spring attachment points and spring tensions that Bessler used.
In light of all of this, one can readily see why I am highly skeptical of any designs that pop up on the web and are simple in nature or of any of the MT designs. If a truly "simple" design was the solution we would have had PM a LONG time ago!
@ Trevor
Looks like you are pursuing the "Isolated Shifting Weight Approach". This is actually a variation of the "Sphere Wheel Approach" about which Bessler wrote: "...little is to be accomplished". I agree and abandoned this approach shortly after beginning my quest for PM decades ago. Bessler tells us that the weighted levers must be "coordinated" and that cords and springs are used in the process. That's good enough for me. So far this is the ONLY approach I've tried that shows ANY promise. I consider it to be the "right track" and intend to stick with it until I see some other approach that looks more promising AND also conforms to ALL of the clues in the Bessler literature.
So far I haven't seen any that do that.
technoguy wrote;
ReplyDelete"I wish that I could reveal the full details of what I am working on, but it's just not possible with this blog format that limits us to verbal descriptions."
Well then you can post pictures up on Besslerwheel. Right?
I'm not member of that site and have no desire to join. However, when I finally get to the point where I am satisfied that I have found THE magic lever design that Bessler used (this assumes that none of those others also on the "right track" beats me to it!), I will make sure I announce it here and provide a link to my own image host so it can be known to those who want to see it. I will give the precise design of the lever which will show its various connection points and will also provide the sets of cord lengths that are required by the Connectedness Principle along with the sping tensions that must be used. I may also provide a brief video clip showing the model wheel undergoing acceleraton from a motionless starting position up to its maximum terminal rotation rate.
ReplyDeleteI want others to have this information so that, finally, Bessler's name can be cleared and, hopefully, the basic design can be improved upon in order to make it serve as a "useful" source of power.
A word of warning about interconnecting levers,It is likely that you'll end up with a conflict between those that need to be lifted and those that need to stay dropped.
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to post drawings with explanations on this site for those who are serious. I did it for Andre La Pierre, as you can see at the top right of this page.
ReplyDeleteJC
Techno wrote;
ReplyDelete"Bessler's name can be cleared..."
I'm going to be criticle about this. I've seen several different people use this as an excuse, and it's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Cleared from what?? Most people don't even know who he is. It's not like his name is in the subconscious of the mass publics minds as being one of histories shisters. Maybe you mean, bring his name back from obscurity?
@ Trevor
ReplyDeleteOne of the biggest problems I've encountered is what I call "entanglement". This happens at the bottom of the drum when the ascending side levers begin to swing toward the axle and their cord connections to the descending side levers become slack. At that time there is the risk of the cords catching and snagging on the lever arms at the 6:00 position. The only remedy I can see for this is to place cross members into the drum radial supports that will support the cords at the bottom of the drum and keep them away from the lever. There is a clue in the second portrait that these cross members are rounded and this makes sense because one would not want the cords resting on any sort of sharp edges during drum rotation. Generally, however, one does not want slack cords coming in contact with anything inside the drum if it can be avoided.
Another time when entanglement can occur is when the weights are removed from the lever ends in order to lighten a wheel prior to translocating it to a new set of upright supports. Fortunately, at this time the springs connected to the levers will pull them securely against stops and keep everthing in place and the cords untangled until the weights are installed.
The more I study the secrets of Bessler's wheels, the more amazed I become at the sheer amount of "hands on" work that he must have done in order to finally produce a working wheel. Literally, dozens of difficult engineering obstacles had to be overcome and he did all of this single handedly! If Bessler lived today and produced his wheels, some university probably would have given him an honorary PhD in mechanical enginering!
@ JC
Thanks for the offer which I will certainly keep in mind. I have material I could post now, but it is still in an incomplete form. I will not be satisfied until I am 100% certain that I have THE same design that Bessler used. It would really be nice if it was done in time for the 300th anniversary, but there is no guarantee of that.
@ Anonymous
I doubt if there any mobilists out there who have not heard of Bessler. Most scientists and engineers have only a passing interest in PM and then tend to dismiss it outright as a physical impossibility. IF they do learn of Bessler, he is immediately dismissed as a hoaxer and a liar since, obviously (to them!), no one can do anything which is physcially impossible.
Finding a working design that was based solely on the clues Bessler left would, I believe, immediately put an end to such criticism and also help to "acquaint" the general public to the life and work of Bessler.
so yes, I would like to play a role in "clearing" his name as well, of course, as finding a solution to the mystery of his wheels.
Tgness said:
ReplyDelete"For example, each of the rising weights on a wheel's ascending side is lifted by four other sinking weights. Thus, the Connectedness Principle involves groups of FIVE weights that work together sequentially to help maintain the eccentricity of the CoM of all of the weights of a wheel. The pentagram is a way of describing the interconnecting cord pattern used by this group of five weights.
As a one direction wheel's drum rotates CW through a 45° increment of motion there is MORE than enough gravitational potential energy lost by the 6:00, 7:30, 12:00, and 1;30 levers to lift BOTH the 9:00 and 10:30 weighted levers into the positions they will have when they reach the 10:30 and 12:00 positions of the drum. The problem is finding the right lever design and interconnecting cord scheme that will allow this transfer of energy / mass to occur with maximum efficiency."
The weights at 6 and 12 wouldn't be sinking.
Who needs a diagram?
After all is said and done I'm afraid none of these configurations will succeed unless you have discovered the secret principle that Bessler spoke about.
ReplyDeleteThere is a principle so hidden and yet so simple that allows for the lifting of a weight using 25% of the force.
That is where we have to start!
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteAlthough it seems odd, the 6:00 and 12;00 weigths DO sink as the wheel rotates CW 45° and their lever's pinions move toward the 7:30 and 1:20 positions of the drum. This is because the 6:00 lever's weight swings in a bit closer to the axle and the 12:00 lever's weight swings a bit closer to its rim stop. In both cases the weights lose a small amount MORE elevation with respect to the ground than they would have if no swinging of their levers took place during the 45° increment of drum rotation.
I have made very careful measurements of the changes in gravitational potential energy that take place as all 8 weights undergo their various VERTICAL changes in position during each 45° increment of drum rotation and I always find that there is a small net LOSS of gravitational potential energy by the weights. This means the drum's 4 sinking weights lose MORE gravitational potential energy (or as I like to say "energy / mass") than is taken back by the 2 rising weights and that amount of "liberated" energy / mass is then available to accelerate all of the structures of the wheel or perform outside work. I have checked my calculations MANY times and I can find no errors in them. That is why I will continue to proclaim that it is a MYTH that one can not continuously extract energy / mass from an ARRAY of "coordinated" weights moving about a "closed" path!
@ Trevor
That "principle" Bessler alludes to is simply one of counter balancing and, IMO, is not directly applicable to his wheels. That is, one does not have a quarter lb weight lifting a 1 lb weight or a 1 lb weight lifting a 4 found weight inside of his wheels (even though, coincidentally, the Merseburg wheel did use 4 lb weights). BUT, his wheels definitely did rely upon careful internal counter balancing.
Remember that the weighted levers are interconnected by cords that cause them to be counter balanced against each other and be in a state of equilibrium that, quite fortunately, placed the CoM of the 8 weights onto a drum's descending side. This equilibrium, although somewhat delicate, was stable and would tend to perserve itself as the drum began to rotate.
What do I have to do or say that will make you realize that all your efforts will be in vain if you do not first give priority to the secret.
ReplyDeleteYou can have the most fantastic expensive car but if you do not have the key it will just stand still.
@ Trevor
ReplyDeleteThe only way to lift a weight with another single dropping weight that is only 1/4 of its mass is if more than 3/4 of the lifted weight's mass has ALREADY been counter balanced by either one or more other weights or by one or more contracting or expanding springs.
Bessler's 8 weighted lever wheel DID use contracting springs to counter balance PART of the masses of the two weights that are lifted during each 45° increment of drum rotation as well as cord connections to the levers of four other sinking weights. This is how Bessler did it and there is really no other way to do it.
If you have an alternative interpretation of Bessler's "so hidden and yet so simple" principle, then I'd certainly like to hear about it.
A correction:
In the first paragraph of my last comment, I wrote:
"...and their lever's pinions move toward the 7:30 and 1:20 positions of the drum."
This should have been:
"..and their lever's pivots move toward the 7:30 and 1:30 positions of the drum."
Sorry about that.
The accidental use of the word "pinions" sounds like I was suggesting that there were gears inside of Bessler's wheels. Let me emphasize this again. There were NO gears inside of his wheels' drums. Their internal mechanics consisted solely of wooden levers, lead weights, steel pivots, cords (possibly made from "catgut"), steel helical springs, and some olive oil lubricant. That's all he needed to do the seemingly impossible!
How can you expect me to hand you the secret on a plate.What glory would that be for you?For sure you would soon claim it as your own.
ReplyDeleteEvery man has got to work it out for himself,then he can truly say,this was my endeavor.
You have fallen into the trap of scientific dogma that says,..there is no other way,..well I'm sorry to say,..there is!
It doesn't seem odd, it's a delusion. The 12 weight is sinking in a delusion. The 6 weight is sinking in a delusion.
ReplyDeleteYour " measurements " of potential energy sound like they need to be repeated. There are more than cords getting entangled in your theory.
100 dollars says Trevor is as deluded as everyone else. 200 dollars says Trevor now goes on a rant of how he is being abused. 300 dollars says I am right about at least one of these things.
ReplyDeleteYou can taunt me as much as you like!I won't blurt out the secret in a fit of impatience.
ReplyDeleteAll you will see is a working wheel on the media.
Doug wrote:
ReplyDelete"It doesn't seem odd, it's a delusion. The 12 weight is sinking in a delusion. The 6 weight is sinking in a delusion."
Well, I can only say here that I regulary work with model wheels where I see these weights doing exactly what I describe. Have YOU ever actually built anything or are you just one of those types who automatically labels everything you've never experienced or can not instantly understand as a "delusion"?
As far as my calculation of GPE changes are concerned, I HAVE checked them many times and I have no doubts about their accuracy. IF the CoM of a rotating ARRAY of weights can be kept to the descending side of a rotating drum, the system will continuously LOSE a small amount of GPE with each rotation despite the fact that any single weight moves around a "closed" path. Don't think I did not start out thinking this was impossible. I did, but eventually I realized that the conventional argument against PM that uses the "conservative" nature of a gravity field does NOT apply to self sustaining OB wheels.
@ Trevor
Whether or not you choose to share any "secrets" you discovered about Bessler's "principles" is up to you, of course. I can't blame you for not sharing it because, frankly, I've only shared a very small portion of the information I've discovered about Bessler's wheels to date., just enough to, hopefully, get a few frustrated mobilists onto the "right track'.
Of course, I know that for every 100 mobilists that read anything I write, about 99 will disagree with or ignore it because it does not agree with their current pet theory about Bessler's wheels or because they do not fully understand what I am trying to say. What keeps me going, however, is the comforting thought that there will be 1 in that 100 who will understand what I am saying and finally decide to give this approach a try since NOTHING else he has ever worked on or is currently working on has showed any sign of working!
Yes, we are all like furry little squirrels jealousy guarding that small pile of tasty nuts that we have hoarded away in our nests. But, eventually all nuts must be used for nourishment or they will go stale and lose their flavor. The smarter squirrels make sure that does not happen.
Technica wrote;
ReplyDelete"I can't blame you for not sharing it because, frankly, I've only shared a very small portion of the information I've discovered about Bessler's wheels..."
and then...
" What keeps me going, however, is the comforting thought that there will be 1 in that 100 who will understand what I am saying and finally decide to give this approach a try..."
AND THEN...
" Yes, we are all like furry little squirrels jealousy guarding that small pile of tasty nuts that we have hoarded away in our nests..."
Time for a Sesame Street education, "One of these things is not like the other." Can you guess which one?
Psst, it's the one in the middle.
It really poses a question doesn't it, if tickle ya techno isn't wanting to give out all he knows, why does he so badly want everyone to take the path he is promoting?
It's cause he's a second cousin to Oscar. A creature with a personality so malicious he wasn't fit for public television.
@ Anonymous
ReplyDeleteOcar was "grouchy" IIRC and I'm not really a grouchy type.
As far as sharing on this blog is concerned, I've already shared far more than anyone else and still see no one else making any contributions that I can honestly say enhanced MY understanding of Bessler's wheel mechanics. JC claims to have found the magic lever design in the Bessler literature and will not share it with anyone. Trevor "knows" what Bessler's "secret principle" was and we will only see it in the media someday. Doug says Bessler's wheels were propelled by an "environmental energy source" but refuses to reveal it.
So, please don't lecture me about "sharing"...come to think about it, what have YOU shared with us so far?! I'm not even sure WHICH Anonymous I'm responding to!!!
While I do want to get my fellow mobilists on the "right track", that does not necessarily mean I want them on the exact same place on that track that I am currently at. No, after they finally get on the right track, they are going to have to work harder than they ever thought possible to finally forge ahead of me (and several others) if they want to be the first to make it to the destination ahead of us.
Nowadays people have gotten so lazy that they think they can just tap a few keyboard keys and have all of their questions answered in seconds. It sounds so nice in theory, but rarely works in practice. What Thomas Edison said is still true: "Invention is 1% inspiration and 99% PERSPIRATION!"
LOL! Want to be the FIRST to solve the Bessler mystery? No problem, just be prepared to sweat out enough to fill a small swimming pool! And, even then, there are really no guarantees of success.
God only knows how many mobilists over the last 300 years decided to duplicate Bessler's wheels. They read the EXACT same literature we now have available (much thanks to JC for that!) and quite possibly material that we now have NEVER even seen! They were highly motivated, skilled craftsmen and mechanics, had ample resources, and followed the "clues" as best they could. And, what was the result of all of those MILLIONS of man-hours of effort? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!
But, I've already shared with the readers of this blog MORE information than most of them had to start with, so, in a sense, you all have a bit of an advantage over them. My recommendation is not to waste that advantage.
A smart squirrel, even when bloated from all of the tasty little nuts he's consumed, is always thinking about new ways to find even more nuts to add to his stash...
I build things, just not things that have zero chance of doing work.
ReplyDeleteI understand exactly what you're describing; and I experience gravity 24-7.
If you have a model with a weight sinking near the top of it, **because it is supposed to be lifting other weight below it** (really, you can't be serious, can you?), I think everyone that reads John's blog would agree with me, this model is never going to run.
We've beaten the gravity-is-conservative horse to death. The legend is based on the perpetual fantasy that gravity can provide free energy like the sun, wind, or rain, and it will remain a fantasy despite your "measurements".
I don't think there are that many mobilists that read what you write.
What you're sharing is of no value, or you wouldn't be sharing it. Right track or no.
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteAs I suspected, you are not really an active mobilist, just another "arm chair philosopher" who has never even attempted to construct an OB wheel. I will, therefore, be taking your objections even less seriously in the future.
The weighed lever at the 12:00 position DOES contribute to the lifting of other weighted levers via cord interconnections and its weight does sink vertically as it slowly moves closer to its rim stop and its pivot nears the 3:00 position.
What I've shared so far won't be found anywhere else on the web because, quite unfortunately, there are currently only a veru few ACTIVE mobilists who are actually on the "right track" They were finally fed up with obtaining zero results and wasting time with various distractions that do nothing to reveal the inner mechanics of Bessler's wheels. However, once they finally got on the right track things began to change. Finally, they began to see some light at the end of a very long tunnel.
And just so you don't confuse readers further. I have never said that an OB PM gravity wheel extracts energy from gravity. That is impossible. It is actually the gravity field with extracts energy / mass from the weights of the wheel and makes it available to accelerate the wheel or perform outside work.
Techy wrote;
ReplyDelete"So, please don't lecture me about "sharing"...come to think about it, what have YOU shared with us so far?! I'm not even sure WHICH Anonymous I'm responding to!!! "
The main thing techy is, I'm not a hypocrite. I'm not trying to get anyone to follow a particular path, and then saying, I'm not going to tell all of the great quantity of knowledge I've come to possess. I'm not saying I Know All the Answers. Oh sorry, you never said that, you said, let me see here if I can remember, "I'm 100 % sure."
And the difference is?...
Don't bother to answer, you bore me.
By the way, I never said you were grouchy. I said you were Oscars second cousin. Cousins do have different personalities you know, unless you're use to inbreeding. Tickle me Techno - he's more the malicious and sleazy type.
ReplyDeleteYou're wrong, again. I said I don't build wheels based on "gravity extracting energy from matter", as you prefer to call it. That would make a good science fiction paperback, though.
ReplyDeleteThe design you're sharing isn't any different from designs bessler and others have tried.
All OB wheels, regardless of their design or what mechanisms are used, reduce to the simplest (unworkable) OB wheel in MT.
Those MT drawings don't have a prime mover, which is an energy source.
We don't need clues to identify those.
You've never had to take my objections seriously. You don't need me or anyone else to debate physics, it's a free world on the internet.
John,..This blog is getting out of hand again!To think of posting is producing a bad taste in my mouth.
ReplyDeleteI wish that all who post be required to submit their name and picture.It's not a free world on the internet.
When you know who you are talking to it helps people to co-operate like a team.
Okay Trevor, let's cooperate like a team. What secrets do you possess that can help everyone out to getting this wheel built?
ReplyDeleteIf you want a friend you got to be a friend.If I felt you were with me I might feel like sharing!
ReplyDeleteBy claiming to know the secret,I was not lauding it over you guys.I was just pointing a better way to go instead of going round the mountain like Bessler warned us against.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous
ReplyDeleteI do want as many mobilists to get on the "right track" as possible because, although I am 100% certain that I am currently on that track, there is always the possibility that I could suffer a fatal accicent or illness and be knocked off the track permanetly. Nobody lives forever. With only five people on planet Earth currently on the right track, there is the real danger that the solution to the Bessler mystery might not be found for another 300 years. The more mobilists on the right track, the less the chance of that happening.
However, I also do not want to make things too easy for my fellow mobilists. They can only get on the right track IF they are actively building since only then will what hints I may drop have full meaning to them. Here, then are my recommendations for getting on the "right track" based on my own experiences:
1.) Start by ignoring anything you read on the web by anybody NOT actively working to replicate the internal mechanisms of BESSLER'S wheels. They are all on the "wrong track" and will remain there until they either quit, drop dead, or switch tracks. Followng their "research" will only waste your precious time and patience.
2.) "Climb higher on Jacob's Ladder' by igonoring the MYTHS that the weights inside of Bessler wheels did not contain ENORMOUS amounts of energy and that a properly constructed OB wheel can not extract that energy.
3.) Don't waste another minute actually physically building a wheel. Get yourself an easy to use CAD / simulation program (I recommend Working Model 2D after trying about a half dozen of them) and invest the few hours necessary in order to learn how to use it. You can then "construct" and test your designs in a matter of minutes that might take ypu days / weeks to construct in the shop and can do so at zero cost in materials. Do NOT physically construct anything until AFTER you have a computer model showing it works. (Yes, I know simulation programs are not 100% perfect. What is? 99% is good enough.)
4.) Build what Bessler built: a wheel with 8 weighted levers which were interconnected with a network of cords that coordinated their orientations as their carrier drum rotated and always kept the CoM of their weights on the drum's descending side. Never forget that springs are CRITICALLY necessary in order to make the design work. Learn how to make springs and adjust their tensions and use them in EVERY design you model.
5.) Study the Bessler literature, but focus your attention primarily on the DT portraits. The symbols in them are not accidental. Each one has significance, but they will only come into 100% clarity as you get closer and closer to duplicating Bessler's secret wheel mechanics.
There. I'll limit myself to only 5 steps since that was one of Bessler's favorite numbers!
5 s - 5 litera alfabetu to : E (Niemiecki) +s = Es oznacza : to .
ReplyDeletePentalpha :
(Pen) – pióro ; gdy pisze zostawia ślad.
(Pent )– zamknięty, enclosure
pentalph - a (łacina) oznacza : przez
a(łac) oznacza : z, od, ze.
(alpha) – alfa , początek, otwarcie, łuk, punkt wyjścia. Fenomen.
(THE prime mover )– zaczątek, inicjator,. Sprawczą.
(As ) - przysłówek oznacza : equally,
(As ) - przyimek oznacza : za.
Thursday, 26 January 2012 John Collins.
"The Italian Orffyreus documentary and the Pentalpha".
5s - the 5th letter of the alphabet is: E (German) + s = Es means: to.
Pentalpha:
(Pen) - pen; when he writes he leaves a trail.
(Pent) - closed, enclosure
pentalph - a (Latin) means: by
a (Latin) means: z, od, ze.
(alpha) - alpha, beginning, opening, arc, starting point. Phenomenon.
(THE prime mover) - beginning, initiator ,. Causative.
(As) - adverb means: equally,
(As) - the preposition means: for.