There was a brief discussion about the Prime Mover in Bessler’s wheel on the Besslerwheel forum recently and I came away still unsure of exactly how we can define it.
Some people argued that since the wheel had to be Out Of Balance (OOB) in order to turn, the OOB arrangement of weights meant that that was the prime mover. Others said it was what ever made the weights OOB was actually the prime mover.
A prime mover can refer to tthe device which extracts mechanical energy from an energy source or it can mean the engine which pulls the train.
Bessler's wheel was a prime mover because it extracted power from falling weights, but really I would like to say gravity!.
But within Bessler's wheel there must also be a prime mover which gets the wheel moving in the first instant. What part converts the source energy into mechanical energy? It must be the OOB weights. The wheel will rotate some amount as long as it is OOB, but the weight-lifter part of the mechanism won’t directly effect rotation, that effect only takes place after is has lifted the weights.
Bessler's wheel was a prime mover because it extracted power from falling weights, but really I would like to say gravity!.
But within Bessler's wheel there must also be a prime mover which gets the wheel moving in the first instant. What part converts the source energy into mechanical energy? It must be the OOB weights. The wheel will rotate some amount as long as it is OOB, but the weight-lifter part of the mechanism won’t directly effect rotation, that effect only takes place after is has lifted the weights.
On the other hand, ovyyus made a good point when he said, “Bessler’s first two wheels remained always OOB, even when held stationary. These wheels contained something (a prime mover) capable of lifting weights prior to any wheel rotation...”
So when the wheel was held stationary, the OOB weights were already in position to overbalance the wheel and we know that the biggest problem we all face is how to lift the weights. Somehow something within the mechanism lifted the weights BEFORE the wheel could rotate.
But although I think the mechanism which lifted the weights was a vital part of the machine, it did not of itself, drive the machine around. That was due to the overbalancing due to the OOB weights, so which one was the prime mover?
Is the weight lifter the prime mover, or is it the OOB weights? You can’t have one without the other - not if you want a continuously rotating wheel.
JC
It's always difficult to describe a mechanical device in words, but I'll have a go.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I believe John is right when he says that there are 5 mechanisms, because, the weight extending happens at the 12 O'clock position, and is completed before the wheel turns 72 Deg.
Assuming a clockwise rotation, there are 2 more extended mechanisms on the right, before 6 O'clock, and two on the left between 6 and 12 O'clock.
This means that there are more extended mechanisms on the right, than the left.
Personally I believe that it only requires 1 mechanism to be extended for the wheel to be overbalanced, so 3 is more than enough.
Let us not forget that, the bottom right mechanism only moves 36 Deg. before it is retracted.
So, no matter where the wheel stops, there is always one mechanism extended to overbalance the wheel.
The odd number seems to be a reasonable assumption for an out of balance condition. Obviously, the timing of the movement is a primary factor.
ReplyDeleteIn MT15, Bessler said the "source" of the prime mover could not be seen. He did not say the "prime mover" could not be seen. He knew the OOB weights were what drives the wheel, and that gravity is invisible and cannot be seen, so is he really saying anything we don't already know.
ReplyDeleteI guess it all depends on how you interpret his statement.
I read Wagner's critique recently. He mentioned Draschwitz and Merseburg wheels had different sounds. It seems Merseburg wheel was very noisy. He claimed added noise was a deliberate attempt to hide the motive force. At least, we may argue that the motive force, prime mover or whatever it is called, must be somewhat silent.
ReplyDeleteJohn Collins, You explained it quite well; you can't have one without the other. It becomes a chicken or egg deal as to which happens first.
ReplyDeleteThe best I've been able to figure out so far; is the first two wheels had two sliders, (reff. MT-15). A spring lifts the slider(s) back up. When a slider is at a 45 degree angle it forms a ramp with a mechanical advantage of about 2 to 1, which means the spring is more than strong enough to lift / reset the slider. The first two wheel had two sliders 90 degrees to each other which formed the cross.
Not only were they self starting they always started in the same direction. To insure this, the sliders must have been biased slightly more to the right for CW operation, to prevent them from starting up in the wrong direction. The last two wheels had four sliders. Two biased to the right and two biased to the left. This nullified the self starting feature. Effectively introducing a neutral position. By pushing the wheel, it would turn either way. Bi directional was perfectly except-able as long as the direction of rotation could be selected by the operator. The problem is; the spring or springs have to shift every half revolution of the wheel. But how to do that? So far it's got me stumped!
Sam Peppiatt
Follow up; back to your question> Is it the OOB slider the prime mover, or is it the spring? Take your pick. Sam
ReplyDeletemt48 won't work other than to rotate to its equilibrium of forces position. Is that the prime mover? Orrfyreus says it is good but needs other different structures. If they make it work then are these other structures the prime movers? We know mt48 won't work without them. We don't know the prime movers couldn't work without mt48.
ReplyDeletethe 'source of the prime mover cannot be seen' because you cannot see spring tension, re: Besslers admission of springs and the report of him loading up the weights and a 'twang' noise being heard. Seems the wheel had to be 'cocked' or loaded/unloaded before use, therefore putting it oob and ready to go. In operation they maybe be stretched/compressed so that wherever stopped there is always a weight out oob by either tension or compression of a spring. Note his poem has 'sear(latch), bow twang (tension working), snatched etc. references.
ReplyDeleteJon
I think Jon's comment provides the key piece of the puzzle. A preloaded spring creates the initial overbalanced condition and is then reset by the falling weights every 1/2 revolution. -James
ReplyDeleteIMHO...its the first swing...
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, but... what is the meaning of this expression : "the prime mover" ?
ReplyDeleteMaybe a starter...
Deleteprime mover noun
Delete1. a person who is chiefly responsible for the creation or execution of a plan.
"he was a prime mover in the construction of the railway".
2.an initial source of motive power, "a manufacturer of prime movers"
JC
Thanks, Suresh and John.
DeleteI hadn't thought of this before, but I guess you could say the weights them selves are the prime mover. Check out Bessler's clue. Go to Bessler Wheel.com, click Wiki, then clues. See "Das triumphans Perpetuum Mobile" High; Clue #2
ReplyDelete"These weights are themselves the P.M. device" Do you get it? The weights stretch out the spring, then the spring lifts the weights back up putting the wheel OOB. The wheel turns; the weights stretch out the spring again, and the cycle repeats, Sam Peppiatt
It is very easy for us to think that the source that he referred to was gravity. That the very essence of gravity is invisible and yet its work can be seen. Both centrifugal force and gravity were at play on his weights, and unless the interaction between those forces are applied correctly to the weights, then nothing will happen. If the weights worked in pairs, then one should be considered the primary mover and the second the as the secondary. If the energy from the primary mover affects the secondary and simultaneously some of the energy is stored in a spring type device, then you have the possibility of the activity that we are seeking. In my opinion, that energy must be captured and released at just the right moment and then the action will continue
ReplyDeleteYou could be right...also, the Centripetal force, Angular momentum inertia all are at a magical play...
ReplyDeleteHello John
ReplyDeleteGoogle redirects your blog to country specific domains and can sensor content for those countries it also can effect hit counts etc.(see)
https://www.labnol.org/internet/prevent-blogger-country-redirection/21031/
there is a fix to keep it .com domain if you add it to blog code
I used to get your blog from .com now redirects to .ca
Thanks pm enthusiast canada
Hi anon. thanks for the advice. I've done as instructed but i do not know if it worked yet. Any feed back gratefully received.
DeleteJC
Working so far.
DeleteThe look of you blog is different light gray background with black lettering instead of the dark gray with white lettering still readable without much eye strain as with white background.
I didn’t intend any major changes to the look of the blog, but got kind of carried away. I’ll sort it out soon.
DeleteJC
I think it is much more readable with your changes John.
ReplyDeleteThe site is much better this way...
ReplyDeleteYou give me the strength to get back to it... Spring (weather permitting) is coming.
I firmly believe that we will see something serious before the summer:)
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ReplyDelete