I have spent a large chunk of my life researching the life of Johann Bessler and trying to find as much written information about him, as possible. Bessler lived about three hundred years ago so clearly the only evidence we have available for study is handwritten or printed. Letters, newspapers and official reports plus drawings and illustrations is all we have, provided mostly by witnesses, or the inventor himself. I have tried to find every single document that relates to Bessler and I am pretty sure I’ve either published all of them or I have copies of other documents which are illegible for now. These latter documents are of more personal nature and do not offer any hope of further revelations about his wheels, although they do provide more information about his life after he left Kassel.
So it is kind of amusing to see people searching for new information in the documents I’ve already published. They seek invisible nuances of meaning in numerous pieces of text, suggesting inaccurate translations, or ambiguity or coded messages in seemingly straight forward prose. I think that this is because they have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out the secret of Bessler’s wheel, and are now scraping the barrel looking for some clue that everyone else missed. I understand why.
Bessler encouraged us to scour his works looking for hidden information, by implying in a number of ways that he had hidden information in his works. I know this is true and I have found much that was hidden, but for now I will just say that the information is real, it is there but in some cases it is not easy to find. Some clues are easy to find but have proved impossible to solve, so far. Others are there but their ambiguity is so confusing that not only is it difficult to know if they are a clue, but also if you have the correct interpretation even if they are indeed a clue. In my opinion the translations are generally correct. I know there have been disagreements over the precise translation of certain words, but I cannot find any advantage in changing or correcting those words, it does not seem to make any difference in our understanding of what Bessler meant.
One thing Bessler was very good at was providing a clue which once solved gave the correct answer twice so that you knew you had it right if you got both versions. I read almost daily, suggestions as to what Bessler intended us to understand from some clue or other and yet the discussion flows so far away from what the inventor was trying to tell us, that I’m tempted to jump in and point them in the right direction. But I never do because I’m still trying to finish my version of Bessler’s wheel and having got so far I’m determined to finish it. As I have said countless times, if it fails I will share everything; all the clues and what they mean and how they relate to the wheel. They are clear, easily understood but their construction is absolutely amazing. We often say Bessler was a genius for designing and building his wheel, well that is only half the story; his ingenuity in hiding the design of his wheel in plain sight of the world for more than 300 years is simply staggering.
Bessler must have intended from the very beginning to have included secret information about his wheel, but the reason for this seems difficult to determine. He set out to sell his machine for 100,000 Thaler. Obviously he was intent on selling it so why did he feel the need to include clues that would reveal how his machine worked? Surely he must have realised that someone might decipher his clues and learn his secret, before he had managed to secure full payment for the device.
It was obviously so difficult to find and decipher the clues, that perhaps he considered post humus acknowledgement of the discovery acceptable, but if that is so did he fear that his chance of getting payment was remote right from the beginning? That seems unlikely also, he was a born salesman and to my mind optimism is a key ingredient. So why did he risk his clues being discovered and deciphered?
It’s possible that his knowledge of codes and ciphers and all the religious, philosophical and esoteric traditions that were flourishing in his day persuaded him to embed much of this practice into his works, in the form of clues to the structure of his wheels, in the hope that his fame would outlast his lifetime.
It’s possible that his knowledge of codes and ciphers and all the religious, philosophical and esoteric traditions that were flourishing in his day persuaded him to embed much of this practice into his works, in the form of clues to the structure of his wheels, in the hope that his fame would outlast his lifetime.
JC
Good morning, John ,
ReplyDeletethank you for your thoroughness and your professionalism in this more than a century-old enigma.
I would just like to add something that seems quite logical to me: put ourselves in the place of Count Karl when he discovers the secret of the wheel. Being the only one to have seen it, he must necessarily match the clues hidden everywhere. Bessler being involved from the beginning in the secret, he must not deliver too much obvious clue. It is not an easy task. We are always afraid of putting too much, or too explicit.
For Karl who is an actor outside the conception, if the clues were "obscure" to most of the readers of the books, he would probably have pointed out to Johann.
So, and this is my personal opinion, I think that the solution is "visible" enough for an average reader, but hidden enough not to be revealed at first sight. Do not forget the important word in the text of his arrest "discernment".
Thank you John and continue to make us dream with your rigor and British phlegm ;-)
Robert . . .
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJohn Collins, Please forgive me for saying so. I find the clues to be a snare; that are best to be avoided. I suggest that any hidden clues are or were more of a mental exercise and not really intended to explain how his wheel worked.
ReplyDeleteAt least I have drifted away from them-----------FWEIW Sam Peppiatt
Since I've been ignored I will now just thank you John for your efforts and move on. I wish you well.
ReplyDeleteI was finishing and publishing my next blog, sorry I wasn’t ignoring you. JC
DeleteMost know that Ken B claims that all of the clues that describe the secrets of Bessler's wheels can be found just in the two DT portraits. They are unfortunately so carefully hidden and so vague that finding and verifying they are real clues would give Sherlock Holmes the worst migraine of his life. And even more annoying they actually tell you nothing of value about Bessler's wheels until AFTER you have independently discovered by yourself the design Bessler used! In other words they only verify that you have actually found Bessler's design and don't really lead you to that design. Only after you find his design by yourself then suddenly all of the clues will become obvious and make complete sense to you. What you have found will then let you make duplicate Bessler wheels that actually work!
ReplyDeleteThe clues in the two DT portraits are like Bessler hands you a sealed box with a giant combination lock on its lid that can only be opened by dialing a long string of numbers into it. But the lock requires that you dial in two dozen numbers to open it! It's the most complicated combination lock ever made. After you spend years trying different strings of numbers and by incredible luck finally do find the right one then the box opens for you. Congrats to you because for every million guys who try to open that lock and box maybe only one will be successful. Inside the box you will find a little piece of paper with the exact string of two dozen numbers written on it that you needed to dial into the combination lock to open it in the first place! It's like a weird Catch-22 situation Bessler dreamed up for us.
Yes Bessler will confirm that you have found the right string of numbers to open the box's combination lock which is here a symbol for finding the secret to his wheels and then all of the right locations and meanings of the clues that prove you have actually found it. But he does not just hand his secret to you on a silver platter to make things easy for you. No you had to do almost as much work as he did to find that secret! You also needed the kind of luck a lottery jackpot winner has! Then if you tell others of your discovery you will get the same treatment Bessler got. You will be accused of hoaxing, lying, scamming, or being a nut case. You may even start to wonder why you even bothered to open the box to start with! Maybe the thought of getting rich and famous kept you going. Did Bessler get rich and famous? For a while he was famous and a little rich but it did not last long and it won't for you either.
Bessler had a strange sense of humor.
But that's exactly the point I'm trying to make, those clues lead him astray. Better to try and figure it out on your own. Forget the clues. Sam Peppiatt
DeleteIt kind of makes sense that Bessler would put the clues into the two portraits because they are the only place we find the one image we have of him. I think he wanted his clues to be close to his face so people would know that he was the first one to invent the working wheel he had in case someone else also found it later on. His clues there do two things. They preserve the details of his secret for all time and also give him priority to them for all time.
DeleteI'm afraid Bessler didn't give us much to go on, dead or alive. Sam Peppiatt
DeleteSam wrote "...those clues lead him astray. Better to try and figure it out on your own. Forget the clues."
DeleteThe problem with ignoring the clues is that, if you actually do make a working pm wheel, then you won't know for sure if it's Bessler's invention or your own. If it is his, then you cannot patent it. If it's actually yours, then you can patent it and are another Bessler! The clues, IF correctly interpreted, allow this question to be answered. I'd want to know if some working wheel I came up with was mine or Bessler's. The clues are at least important for that purpose.
Also Sam wrote "I'm afraid Bessler didn't give us much to go on, dead or alive."
I think Ken would strongly disagree with that statement! He's convinced he's found most of the clues in the two DT portraits. But, maybe he's just seeing things like people who see faces in clouds or flying saucers. I think too much concentrating on finding clues can make one start seeing things that aren't really there. They only exist in the person's imagination. They have a name for this. It's called "pareidolia". It's not really a mental illness more like an illusion caused by a stressed out brain. Most pm wheel chasers are very stressed out.
I'm a big dummy OK; So nothing I could ever say can stand up to your superior intellect. It's unfair, but that's the way it is-------Sam Peppiatt
DeleteOne can make a long list of all of the "clues" he thinks he's found. But, the bottom line is that if they don't lead to a working wheel (or at least a valid sim), then they don't amount to a hill of beans.
DeleteWhile Bessler might have had good reasons, in his mind, to include visual clues in his portraits of DT which was a public document, we can only speculate on what the reasons might be, when he intended to sell at least one of his earlier wheel designs. And if so, how much information and its relevance he put in there to all possible design concepts, if more than one existed. He would hold the generic blue-print so to speak. What we do know is that other visual and written clues are likely contained in MT, kept in his possession until his death, which was not for public consumption, unlike DT. It looks fairly certain that the Toys Page contains major clues if not in at least one or other pictures.
ReplyDeleteIf KB is correct, that DT portraits contain important wheel information to be deciphered, then there should be a visceral connection to the Toys Page drawings. More than mere coincidental. Is there?
Because of Bessler's esoteric education it is possible that his public documents also contained the roots of that esoteric information as a sign post for others with the knowledge of his authenticity as a person in history and the inventor of true PM perhaps.
Bessler originally had drawings showing how his pm wheels worked and they were placed at the end of MT. I think MT was supposed to be used as a textbook to train students at his planned "Fortress of Wisdom" school about how to build pm machines. But, IIRC, he offered to withhold the publication and give the book to anyone who paid him the 100,000 for his invention. That person could then do whatever he wanted with the book even destroy it. I guess that was a bonus Bessler was offering to sweeten the deal. Unfortunately, the wheel stayed unsold, he was arrested on phony fraud charges, and he then responded by removing the drawings in MT that showed how his pm wheels worked and destroyed them all. In their place he left the Toys Page. It probably has some important clues in it but no one has figured them out yet.
DeleteIn case there are any newbies here who have not yet seen the Toys Page you can see it here:
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/68/c1/dd/68c1dd4873d736c8a14d30479aada2ac.jpg
I know if I purchased his wheel I'd want exclusive and enduring rights to it and its mechanical design. It wouldn't be on for him to publish the secret principle and mechanics in his books after I'd paid good money for them. If he did then the clues must relate to a later different design.
ReplyDeleteHi John,
ReplyDeleteCan you post a picture of your wheel (as it is) so we can get a better understanding of how it’s going to work?
LOL! Don't hold your breath while waiting for that to happen! Maybe you've never heard of the "Mr. Lepard Spots 2029 Prophecy"?
DeleteThank you for being interested Perpetualman, but I’m not giving anything away until I’ve tried to finish my wheel. Hopefully, in spite of hilarious comments about Mr Lepard Spots, I will finish it soon and then I will post a video of it working.
DeleteJC
Robert...good points...great of you to observe so much... this points to out of box thinking... also, it highlights the need for quality in commenting...
ReplyDeleteFrankly speaking, one gets sick of the prevailing compulsory high dose of the comments here that one is subjected to... quantity has replaced quality and it has become such a nuisance... And, there seems to be no respite...
Bessler left valuable clues for whatever reasons and some of us still are not able to come to terms...and, that's a great pity... Whether in the portraits or in the poem or any of his literature, for that matter, a clue is a clue and it calls for reverence...
If there happened to be more than one principle or one design then how would one relate to these set of clues...all this points to the uniqueness of the wheel...
Also, if there were many approaches or designs then someone would have certainly solved it by now...
Since Bessler built many wheels people wrongly think that there could be different principles or mechanisms...
Bessler Wheel mystery is very intriguing but the Monopoly over the commenting pattern here is very nauseating and it has gone out of control...it is either SP or KB...
Let us all realize this and bring back the old glory... Many interesting characters have simply left us or are lying dormant...
If you ask me, solving this enigma isn't difficult at all if only we put out quality comments and respect others views...I think we are all equally responsible...
JC sir, you may please delete this comment if it is offending...
It’s not offensive Suresh so I won’t be deleting it, however since you mentioned it, I plan to delete anything that is irrelevant or I think is too frivolous to waste our time and my space here. I’m also including all references to KB’s book whether it’s by him or someone who is representing him.
DeleteThe reason I have finally decided to remove him and all references to his book is because I know it is founded on imaginary clues and also his theory about Bessler’s wheel is bunkum. I’m amazed that anyone is giving serious consideration to any of the contents of his book.
JC
All right Suresh, I can take a hint, I'll leave it to you. SP
Delete"The reason I have finally decided to remove him and all references to his book is because I know it is founded on imaginary clues and also his theory about Bessler’s wheel is bunkum. I’m amazed that anyone is giving serious consideration to any of the contents of his book."
DeleteNever having actually read and studied his whole book, you really know nothing of the sort. Maybe you are actually AFRAID that he is right and that YOU are the one whose "clues" are imaginary and will lead to nothing? Maybe it is YOU who cannot refute the conclusions he's reached about Bessler's wheels because they make far more sense than the ones that you have reached? I think there are MANY here who DO want to know more about Ken's opinions on anything to do with Bessler's wheels. He at least is providing us with some interesting NEW information while all you do is continually procrastinate and make empty promises to "reveal all soon" whether it works or not. Since last year you have really presented nothing new here! I doubt if Henry L., Paul R., etc. are actually Ken B or his "proxies" as you claim, but if they are they have made this blog far more interesting than it was before they started posting here. At least they have something to say that makes sense compared to the usual nonsensical, time wasting dribble here and on other sites.
So send me copy of your book Ken, then I can speak with authority. Only I know you won’t be sending me one. If you can convince me that your book is full of new information and the clues are genuine as are your conclusions about them, I’ll publish my agreement quite happily, but if I disagree I’ll say so too.
DeleteJC
JC
I thank anon 14:44 for his kind comment. But I'm fed up with having my identity and motives constantly questioned on this blog. I will not be posting here anymore.
Deletepaul r.
Promise?
DeleteJC
I already had JC delete some of my past comments here.
DeleteLast year I responded to Mr. Lepard Spots very pessimistic prophecy for JC and this blog by delivering what can be called my "Sayer of Sooths 2029 Prophecy" and JC quickly deleted it because I think it was too overwhelming for him to handle at that time. Basically, I prophesied that in the next decade JC would abandon his current approach and accept KB's as "the" solution to the JB wheel. But JC would go further than that. He would follow the instructions in KB's book and actually construct the first working reproduction of a JB wheel in the last three centuries. As a result both he and KB would get much worldwide attention, fame, and praise for their accomplishments.
I believe that JC now has two possible destinies awaiting him with regard to JB's wheels and will fulfill one of them. One was predicted by the dismal "Mr. Lepard Spots 2029 Prophecy" and will have JC being remembered only as a minor figure in the JB history due to his providing some additional translations of JB's writings. The other is predicted by my more optimistic "Sayer of Sooths 2029 Prophecy" and will have JC becoming a major figure in the JB history. I can't predict at this time which destiny he will fulfill. I do feel KB has the potential to become a major figure in the JB history but it won't happen until and unless a working wheel is made based on his research. I feel optimistic about that happening.
Sayer of Sooths
SoS, I’m not sure whether I deleted a comment of your’s but if I did it wasn’t because I was “overwhelmed” by anything you wrote. With regard to your prophecy, I can assure you that I will never ever follow the instructions in a Ken B’s book, because I know the entire content is a house of cards, ready to collapse as soon as the true clues and codes are published.
DeleteNeither of the outcomes described in your prophecy will come true which throws considerable doubt on your ability to prophecy. No offence intended, just the way I see it.
JC
SoS, I think John has more than just two possible destinies ahead of him.
DeleteFor example, his wheel might work whether its "the" one Bessler had or not. His wheel might not work and he will still not decide to build Ken's wheel for some reason. His wheel might not work and he will try to build Ken's wheel but won't be able to or he will be able to build it but it will be unworkable for some reason. Someone else may build Ken's wheel before John and show it either works or does not work. John might suddenly die before any of these happen.
No one can know with any certainty what the next decade holds for any of us. We all just have to be patient and watch events unfold as they will.
Or my wheel won’t work but I’ll prove that it’s exactly the same as Bessler’s apart from my poor workmanship.
DeleteJC
"Or my wheel won’t work but I’ll prove that it’s exactly the same as Bessler’s..."
DeleteWithout at least a working sim I don't think most will accept it as "the" one Bessler had. You got to have something more than just saying some part of your wheel looks similar to something in one of Bessler's drawings and that proves it. You need a working sim minimum, imo.
anon 09:22: "I think John has more than just two possible destinies ahead of him."
DeleteEverybody has got many possible destinies but a good psychic will tune in on the ones most likely to happen. Knowing what they are lets you change them or go with them if you want.
The only reason why Bessler left clues is as an excuse to anyone else who finds the design saying; hey I was there first. That’s all.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that he left hidden, coded clues in drawings or text. What would you find and how would you know it is valid. That puzzle might even be bigger and a solution is not guaranteed. You can better puzzle with clasical mechanics and geometry for there you know for sure there is an answer
But, tell that to a believer. :))
I agree with you, except for the levity. They are tring to figure it out.
DeleteRAF Hello John, the second drawing is visible but the first drawing is not. Can this be fixed? Thanks
ReplyDeleteYou can lift page one of the top drawing to reveal page two, and the second one is below the first two. Is that what you mean? I had some problems learning to embed pdf into blogger pages.
DeleteJC
Despite being advised to do so many times over the years, I have resisted the requirement for people to be members of this blog and/or have google accounts. I have no wish to remove the anonymous commenters but I’m beginning to wonder if I should insist on that requirement. But for now II’ll leave things as they are because the time is approaching when I shall discover if my version of Bessler’s wheel works. At that point things will change regardless of the outcome.
ReplyDeleteJC
Roger that.
ReplyDeleteThere are just ONE answer to your question John.
ReplyDeleteAnswer: MT + Publications
Certainly he wouldn't give his secret away in a single code. At the same time he needed to prove a rights at a prior date.
If MT was to be sold along the machine or after the machine was sold, the only logical answer is a code that you would need both AP and MT to solve. Then you would have date (1717) and the solution intellectual rights secured AP(1717)+MT(when wheel is sold, or posthumous).
John,
ReplyDeleteI pride myself on being able to judge whether a given device (or principle) will produce the desired effect (ever riding the waves of delusion that I experience when I have a new idea) and I've never been one to hold the tongue. But I move forward. If I had a pile of the virtual devices I've concocted and animated it would probably fill a quite large hard drive.(LOL) No matter how inspired I am about discovering any single facet of this machine (on a daily basis now and then) I certainly move on to something else (then). Question for John and this relevant audience: Just how clever do you imagine that Bessler was? After pondering that for a while now take a look at your devices and reckon whether or not they fit the bill. Just some friendly advice from a member of your relevant audience.
Hi cw, I’m not sure what you’re getting at, but I think Bessler was very clever. I am looking at my current device and I see a clever mechanical arrangement working on a simple principle. But as you may know I believe I have found Bessler’s device by deciphering his clues, in which case it wasn’t me that discovered his secret but he showed me the answer. I’m not sure if I would ever have thought of this design myself, unless I had his input.
DeleteJC
If anyone can decipher this rhyme from Bessler poem then he is surely on the right track...
Delete"Children play among the pillars with loud heavy clubs"
JC sir, you should try answering this riddle.
I can’t Suresh, I think it may become clearer once we know the secret.
DeleteJC
Hello Suresh and John ,
DeleteI think ,from my research , it relates to the toy page. . . Children play => the toy ... Pillars => the 2 pillars on each side ... Heavy clubs => hammer ...
Still according to my research, the toy page would be what gave Bessler the solution ...
Robert . . .
Robert... Nope
DeleteI wouldn’t rule out Robert’s suggestion Suresh.
DeleteJC
@ Suresh Kumar. If your translation is incorrect Suresh then where does that leave you. This is what Stewart had to say about those particular sentences.
Delete"One of the key errors in other translations I'd like to point out is that the children are playing with balls (marbles) and not clubs, and in fact the small columns are likely to be a reference to skittle pins (see this post: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=150495#150495 ).
Die Kinder spielen auf den Säulgen
Mit lauter schweren Schniebe-Käulgen;
the children play on the small columns
with loud heavy marbles;
Stewart"
Thank you John ...
Deleteit's hard to give your point of view when everyone has had their own for a long time. Also, I think that we should not want to impose things. You just have to make people think about ways they hadn't planned.
I think the solution will come from a series of coincidences. Bessler left a lot of clue, but being involved he may not have had the distance to see the level of difficulty in solving the solution. I have searched a lot and I also hope to find soon. Kidney such as to build real prototype. When time permits, I will sink new weights to lead. Sorry for my poor english , and thank for google translation ;-)
I hope you understand me .
Robert . . .
Hi John, I am unable to lift the page for the pdf drawings. Only the second page is visible; please advise. Would jpg drawings sent make a difference ? Thanks
ReplyDeleteOK, I put three drawings up, page 1 and 2 look identical but I posted them anyway. Page 3 is below pages 1 and 2. If you click on page 1 and drag it upwards it reveals page 2 . Are those the pages you sent me? By all means send me them as jpgs.
DeleteJC
Click on the top right of each picture to get the full size version.
DeleteJC
The drawings will not drag. Sorry.
ReplyDelete@ Stewart & Robert,
ReplyDeleteI think the game might be bar skittles, the "top" on the toy page might be an upside down skittle, if it's pivoted at the bottom, it could be knocked flat by a pendulum on the downward side, and reset on the up, as it then hangs down.
PS,
Deleteabove comment by STEVO
Hello Anonymous.
DeleteLike "a lot" of people here, I developed my personal conception on the subject. Being kindly invited to John's blog, I would not argue about that. Especially that as long as a functional wheel is not produced, it will be useless. John is probably the person with the most knowledge on the subject (and especially his knowledge is correct). As I said earlier, a sum of coincidence will eventually lead to the solution. The word "discernment" is also very important. Best to follow John and read his books.
Make your own way and your own idea/conception ;-)
Robert . . .
The moment we hear children it is but natural ones mind hastily correlated them with toys.. and, it is again quite natural that this suggestion quickly gets endorsed by a stalwart like JC sir and when this happens the majority's conclusion rules the roost...well, that's also the way a normal democracy functions these days...no wonder the prevailing blog tendency follows this trend...
ReplyDeleteIf things were that easy it wouldn't have taken more than 300 years...we are supposed to do out of box thinking... Bessler has been too kind with his very simple clues which compliments his extremely simple wheel design...
This particular transalated clue is correct and there exists such a simple Bessler design which jells astonishingly well...
We don't like our errors to be publically pointed out... Some even try to find fault with the genuinely translated clues...of course, mostly, if not all clues translation, seem to be quite right...and, that is, when we patiently, match with the actual wheel concept...
Well, let us wait for others to air their views before I really disclose the answer which, I am sure, will leave one surprised... We should, of course, be grateful to JC sir for displaying his magnanimity sometimes so that like minded people get to air their views...
I am wondering what happened to Trevor and The great Andre sir... It would be very interesting if everyone joins the brainstorming...
In the meanwhile, let us try to see things where others have failed...
Karl's remarks are genuinely right... The clues in the poem are fantastic... I mean they better than the ones in portaits...
This riddle goes to prove where we actually stand and why 300 years have passed without making any sense...
Sorry, no offense is intended...let us be as broad-minded as we can and not feel belittled instantly, We sometimes need someone's prodding, don't we?...
"Die Kinder spielen auf den Säulgen
ReplyDeleteMit lauter schweren Schniebe-Käulgen;
The children play on the small columns
with loud heavy marbles;"
"Children play among the pillars with loud heavy clubs"
Likely. Children play among the small columns with loud heavy marbles.
Interpretation. Small columns are the wheels supports anchored to the floor and ceiling.
As simple children can play marbles between ancient columns, so Bessler's wheel mechanics are simple, as the metaphoric loud heavy marbles circulate between its supports.
Good attempt but still off the mark, anon...
ReplyDeletePls try further... don't lose hope....see you later...
A "schniebe-käulgen" was probably a wooden bat used in various European ball and bat games that were the forerunners of British cricket and American baseball. In some of those earlier games they used short wooden poles or "columns" placed in the ground for the bases. Here's an drawing from a book published in 1744 that shows the "columns" used as bases. In this drawing the player at home base hits the ball with his hand but in other games the wooden schniebe-käulgen was used. The columns had to be short enough so a player would not hit one when he swung his arm or a bat.
ReplyDeletehttps://miro.medium.com/max/313/1*1RCAdXVqPqQl0TNIlcyhgw.jpeg
When Bessler wrote "children play among the columns with loud heavy clubs" he was using such a ball and bat type game to poetically describe the action of his wheel's axle on the wooden posts in the stamping machine when he placed it close enough to the rotating axle. The axle had metal pieces sticking out of it that would catch notches in the posts and lift and drop them. Their bottom ends then landed on an empty box and made loud sounds. The axle metal pieces and stamping machine posts were the "children playing with loud clubs". This happened between the vertical wooden planks that held the axle of the wheel and were the "columns" mentioned in that line of poetry.
Henry L.
Henry L, alias Ken B, speculating again and presenting his ideas as facts.
DeleteJC
Uh oh! Looks like JC is suffering from another bout of KDS or "Ken Derangement Syndrome"! I think he had that last year some time during the spring or summer months.
DeleteThe symptoms of this disorder cause its victim to begin imagining that every anonymous poster here is potentially Ken B or, if his post is signed with a pseudonym, a Ken B socket puppet. If his post is longer than two sentences, has proper grammar with no misspelled words, and displays any hint of intelligence, then his suspicion escalates further. If the poster makes any mention of Ken B, says anything positive about him, or mentions his Bessler book, then that finally and conclusively proves to him beyond a shadow of a doubt that the poster MUST be Ken B and no amount of denial by the poster will convince him otherwise. Last year's bout of KDS seemed to naturally resolve itself after a few weeks and, hopefully, this one will too.
Ken B has a google account and has mentioned here several times in the past that he has a strict policy of never posting anonymously or pseudonymously. That may be because of his huge ego. He wants his name attached to everything to get as much attention for himself as possible. That would virtually guarantee he would not be posting anything here unless he was actually using his google account. In order to have as many socket puppets as he as been accused of having, he would have to have some kind of bizarre multiple personality disorder that enabled him to imitate the different writing styles and vocabularies of a least a half dozen or more posters here over the years. That just seems too improbable to me to be possible.
No doubt, after reading this comment JC will immediately assume that I am also Ken B posting anonymously or pseudonymously. All I can say is that I am definitely NOT Ken B, but if his KDS is in an advanced stage at this time, then that will not suffice in any way to lessen his conviction that I am. I can only wish him a speedy recovery so that he can stay focused on getting his wheel completed and tested to show that he actually does have a runner and can finally reveal the Bessler clues that allowed him to find that design.
I'm NOT Ken B!
Well let’s face it if you were Ken B, your defensive comment would be exactly what Ken B, would write. It was however an entertaining response.
DeleteJC
Thanks Henry L. for your explanation of that line from AP. It makes the most sense of all of the ones I have read so far. Bessler probably played such ball games as a kid. He would then have used such past experiences later in life when describing the mechanical actions of his wheels if they reminded him of those past experiences.
Delete"lauter" in the sentence ""Die Kinder spielen auf den Säulgen; Mit lauter schweren Schniebe-Käulgen;" has nothing to do with loud (german "laut"), but has a completely different meaning. In this case "lauter" has the meaning "only", "nothing but". If it came from "laut" (loud), it would have to be "Mit lauten schweren Schniebe-Käulgen".
ReplyDeleteovaron
Correct. "Mit lauter ..." should be translated to "With just ..."
DeleteThank you ovaron. JC
DeleteKen... thanks..I.am sorry but this answer is wrong...
ReplyDeleteI spent about 40 years researching and now I can laugh out loud...
It may be unbelievable but the answer is entirely something else... You'll be able to only understand when I finally reveal it...
At the moment, we are just trying to find how much progress has been made by others...
But, in my opinion, no one is even anywhere near the truth...as you can evidently see...
And, unless we understand this and work hard afresh, take my words, the mystery is not going to be solved even this year...
This is what I am trying to make out to everyone... A radical change in our outlook is required...we should stop wasting others time unnecessarily...and, learn to learn from more experienced ones...We should make quality comments...and never misguide anyone...
As of now, we are all sailing on the same boat as far as Bessler wheel is concerned... IAM still waiting to see if anyone can forward with the right interpretation...
JC sir, I hope you are not very much annoyed with my way of expressing things...I have been following this blog since 10 years or so and till now I have a feeling we have not been successful... what do you think?... will all this go on and go on in a similar way?...in the recent quiz of children playing it is quite clear that success is not within reach... how is all this going to end?... In one way, Ken has done what all he could and we know that his words don't shed any light on the mystery... I mean they are of no use to us in any way...we could learn many unknown personal details of Bessler through your efforts and also about Gravity being the energy source... but nothing about the internal mechanism if I am not wrong...and, this is what is the need of the hour... many people are pinning their hope on you...and, as far as I am concerned, certain pressing personal problems prevent me from going ahead with the build at the moment...I am worried about all this...I also have a strong feeling that not much may emanate your revelation... because I have studied your past design on a perforated wooden disc and strongly feel that it was all a wrong approach...and that is because Bessler Wheel's actual designing is of a hollow drum like structure... otherwise, the levers would clash mutually...I always wanted to point this out many times in the past but hadn't the courage to do so because of your temperament... Earlier, you never used to be in the listening mode...but I think Ken's constant pestering has had some good effort on you and your patience has increased lately...I would like to know if the Bessler wheel invention can bring any international award or prize?... Will it be as famous as the windmill?...both yourself and Ken are authors but I lack such skills and can never dream of writing a book...I am sure I know the secret but quite afraid to make a public disclosure... just like Bessler...he never revealed...Do you have any advice for me?...I don't want to reveal much and be a loser after so many years of mental work?... I don't even want to build for fear of losing...In your next blog please give guidelines on how to successfully reveal to the world...
ReplyDeleteYou need to work on your temperament John! Sorry, but I found that hilarious!
ReplyDeleteSuresh. You are one of a dozen at the moment who are absolutely sure they have the right mechanism and are as full of conviction and belief as you. They also have put much time and effort for many years to solve the Bessler mystery. They just have to build it, tweak it ect. Just ask SG. Even if one of you is correct then 11 others are wrong, but that doesn't stop them believing.
ReplyDeleteAnon...I agree with you but you are still not considering the children playing clue...this alone can boost us to the top...
DeleteI can also answer many other clues but this is enough to take us there...
There is no much use by putting much time and effort if your design doesn't jell with this one clue...
Bessler wheel invention is a very odd subject and so it requires a very odd person to crack it... A real crack pot....
Yes Anon, that is so true. I am one of them. More than ten years ago, after years of trying and failed builds I finally had it on paper. I told my father, who was a non-believer, he said it could not be done. Well dad, I’ve got it. He asked me if it was simple. I said dad, it is so simple that I feel ashamed that it took my so long to see it. It did not work. Played around with the concept but no movement. That went on for three or four times but every time it did not work. Son, said my father, have you still not proven to yourself that it cannot be done. It is impossible. Years ago I stopped telling him, and myself, that I got it. You know it when you build it. Dozens of times I was convinced that it would work. But it never did.
ReplyDeleteThe builds are currently on hold because I am busy with other things and that will stay that way until the end of summer. Last year I finished some successful builds. Successful meaning that they mechanically performed as intended but they wouldn’t turn by itself. I have a new design on paper that definitely will work. It meets all the criteria mentioned in AP. Peacock’s tail, weights working in pairs, upper weight not connected to a mechanism, Mars , Jupiter Saturn, etc, etc. If it is not working then I am really curious how it will balance out. Because it can’t. This is it. :)
But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I have to build it first. It probably won’t work. Like all the others. That is most likely to happen. But then I will try again.
Marinus dear... the proof of the pudding is in first solving the critical clue of children playing...
DeleteHow can I convince you on this?...
People go to great extent like for example take Ken...he has an explanation for everything under the Sun but ask him this one how silly a reply he has come up with...
See how open JC sir was... He accepted and also gave an apt reply...
This alone brings out the royalness...
If you don't know you just don't know, that's all... what do you lose anyway?
Bessler was very honest dear...
And so are his clues, believe me...
Marinus I’m with you, I have experienced the same highs and lows as you. It hpgoes with the territory..
DeleteJC
Thank you John. I think all serious chasers/builders will recognize themselves in my story. It is what binds us. We are all walking on the same terrain.
Delete@Suresh
I already have interpreted the children’s clue and it is most likely not the same as yours. I don’t know what yours is. Mine is just children playing pole vault. How else would you get the weights over the axis? Now that I told you my interpretation, does your integrity allow you to tell me yours?
When a simple riddle like the one I posed for others as a challenge test to see if anyone is on the right track has miserably failed to fetch the right answer then how can anyone claim to even know the secret?...
ReplyDeleteNo one could offer a right explanation to what Bessler meant by quoting about children playing...
This is the most critical clue of all...
If anyone can solve this one thing he is almost there...
It is very difficult to reason with unreasonables...
You can solve the Bessler mystery but never the anons' reasoning...
They think every Bessler enthusiast is the same... It is here that they are wrong...
You just can't drive home a point into them...
Bessler never revealed...does that mean he was wrong?...
I again reiterate... please give a plausible explanation to the same children playing riddle...
This itself is enough to filter out the right ones...
Let's first consider this as a litmus test...
JC Sir, I now salute to you for being so much Frank by accepting that you don't know the real answer to the children playing riddle... You have been very honest here...I must admit...
ReplyDeleteThis one riddle I have come up with can silence anyone... It is a very powerful clue..
It can solve more than three fourth of the mystery... believe me...
We all know how simple the Wheel's internal mechanism is, don't we?...
It is no wonder why Bessler was tremendously protective... just one glance can give away everything...
Thanks to Him for we have his several clues...to just know if we are on the right track...
There's no point in going away by building the same when we are in no position to answer a simple clue like the one in question...
What really Bessler was hinting at by just referringto children playing?
Intriguing, isn't it?... Let us first solve this clue before going ahead solving the whole mystery....
I urge your highness to write a special blog on this please...
Thanks in advance...
My one cent...
@Suresh Kumar
DeleteImo, you are just another SG type who shows up here and pretends to know some big secret about Bessler's wheels and then tries to get everyone involved playing a stupid guessing game concerning it. Like SG, you really have no intention of revealing anything here because you know that if you did it would quickly be shown to be nonsense just as soon as you revealed it. Better to keep it secret so as to maintain your delusion that it's real. When delusions are enjoyable, no one wants to risk having them exposed as delusions.
Anonymous and PROUD of it!
Thank you for your comments Suresh. I hope you won’t be upset I’m when I tell you that I think the poem is interesting but not helpful until we already have the secret.
DeleteJC
Hello Suresh,
DeleteI think it is presumptuous to say that we have the solution and that only our vision of things is the right one. Especially if you don't have a working wheel.
But I come back to you on the fact that you are afraid of building the wheel.
Everyone is afraid of failure, but these failures can bring you the solution. It is called experience and it is useful in the knowledge of things.
Personally, I have been on the same project for 9 years now and I can assure you that I have mounted / dismounted many wheels. At each failure, I refined my research. Now I hope to arrive at the solution.
Whoever finds the solution could explain many things. The toy page will not help much in finding the solution. It will be easier to use other clues to achieve this. It’s not Bessler who wants to.
Important thing ( for me ) : it s too late to make money with this discovery . We have to give it to humanity .
Robert . . .
Guys like John and Ken B have no doubts about their solutions. The closer you get to "the" solution the less doubts you will have. Doubt is for LOSERS!
DeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteDid Bessler invent a special machine or just special weights? I seem to remember the words "an ingenious arrangement of weights" and "structures","form",x.
I’m sure it was a special machine and the weights were not special. The mechanism was in my opinion an ingenious arrangement of weights. But I do not think there was a structure forming an x. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
DeleteJC
I meant etc.
DeleteCould be a kiss?
ReplyDeletePossible.....but unlikely in my opinion. JC
Deletecwforshort/marinus/Robert... you guys are real genuine ones...I would love to share more with you people but some anons' here really do spoil the game... I hope you guys understand this...
DeleteYou are absolutely right Bessler invented both...special weights and a special structure to compliment it... One without the other is useless... this is my first great finding in more than my 35 years or so of my experience... nobody can tell you this so confidently, cwforshort...believe it or not...
Robert... You are right too about the toys page of not being much help... other clues are more helpful...I am not afraid oi failure...J am afraid of losing the secret...I don't agree with you on one count... actually you should start the building only after forming concept in mind...
Marinus...it is not the pole vault... their exists a very ingenious way to get the weights over the axle... this calls for a special designing of the internal parts...if you are really interested we could join and from an alliance to really bust this mystery...
SK wrote "You are right too about the toys page of not being much help..."
DeleteActually KB claims that the Toys Page is the most important one in all of MT and provides all of the measurements of the parts used in Bessler's wheels which can be gotten by just combining the alphanumerical values of the five letters on the page in various ways. Other items on the page give the shapes of the levers and their orientations in different parts of the drum. But until you know the design Bessler used you won't be able to make any sense of the clues there. After he cooled off a bit following his arrest Bessler felt bad about removing and destroying the pages in MT that showed the actual working design he had. He then drew up and left the Toys Page as a substitute.
The levers in his wheels according to KB had three arms each and were shaped like the letter Y as shown in his youtube video of the wheel. Look at each of the two hammermen on the top toy in the center of the page. How many arms do you see for each man? There are actually three! They are the man's two visible arms and a third arm which is the handle he holds to which the a heavy metal hammer head is attached. Bessler gives us an important clue here to the shape of the levers he used. Next look around the Toys Page more carefully. If you do you will actually find the letter Y if you look hard enough for it.
Here's that link again someone above gave to a photo of the Toys Page
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/68/c1/dd/68c1dd4873d736c8a14d30479aada2ac.jpg
Yes, the letter Y-shape is very interesting but not the way you might think. Have a look at the image of the wheel that accompanies AP.
DeleteRemember, the design is simple, stay away from genius mechanism's.
Hello Suresh,
Deletethe problem with an alliance is that everyone has their opinion on the thing and that it took a long time to get there. We should abandon our hard-won concept to adopt those of others. Second, few of you will want to give up your design for fear of being robbed. It could be stolen in order to be forgotten.
In addition, my design having almost 10 years of evolution, the wheel is almost complete and only requires adjustment of the lever and a redesign of the weights. i don't need help of someone , just need time to finish the wheel .
In short, we are destined to continue alone in our corner until one of us finds the solution and shares it. Even at this point, some people will have to successfully duplicate the wheel. A real wheel and not a simulation (a simulation does not produce energy, I saw it on my electricity bill ;-)).
But I am open to all other ideas than mine and I think everyone has a chance to find THE solution to this enigma.
One day , and i m sure of it , someone will find the secret . I hope it will be soon .
Robert . . .
"The levers in his wheels according to KB had three arms each and were shaped like the letter Y as shown in his youtube video of the wheel."
DeleteThanks for that revelation anon 07:55! It makes sense. I notice that each of the top two hammermen also has the letter "C" near him and the alphanumeric value of that letter is 3 since it's the third letter of the alphabet and that would seem to confirm that each lever must have had 3 arms on it. I also looked around for the letter "Y" that you said to find. I didn't notice it at first but it's the top three tiles of that Jacob's Ladder toy to the right of the hammermen. The nearest letters to it are the "A" and the "B". If you add up their alphanumeric values you get 1 + 2 = 3 and another clue that Bessler used levers with 3 arms on each one.
What's disturbing about these lever arm clues is that, assuming they are being correctly interpreted, then they mean that unless your wheel uses 3 arm levers you are NOT working on Bessler's wheel design! Right now I only know of one wheel design that uses 3 arm levers and that's the one shown by Ken B in his youtube wheel video. The levers in that design definitely look like the letter "Y" especially as they pass the drum's 12 o'clock position as the drum rotates and have an almost vertical orientation like the actual letter.
Yes anon 07:55 great work. And how good from anon 17:55 to fill in the rest. I wish I were you. Oh My goodness I am anon. I am you. I am talking to myself. Anyway KB for president. He comes in different flavors.
DeleteAnons 17.55 and 18.52, Ken’s back. Do you really think anyone is fooled? JC
DeleteMany dismiss the toys page as useless but that is a big mistake because it does contain many important clues you won't find elsewhere.
DeleteLook at the two axmen on the bottom. Notice a difference from the ones on the top? The bottom ones have no arms! Their axes which represent levers are being held by their bodies which are springs! Look at the man on the left. His axe is held up completely by his spring body. The spring body of the man on the right does not hold his axe up and its head is down on the log between the axmen. What does this tell us? The axe on the left represents the lever near the 9 o'clock of a drum and its weight is fully supported by the stretched springs that attach it to the drum. If you add the values of the D and E letters near him you get 4+5=9 which means 9 o'clock. For the man on right the letter near him is just D which has a value of 4 and means 4 o'clock. That tells us that by the time a lever gets around to the turning drum's 4 o'clock position it is finally in contact with a wood stop inside the drum. At that time its springs are no longer stretched.
These are only a very few of the clues in the toys page. There are many others I can't go into here at this time.
Henry L. (once again I'm not Ken!)
Here's something to try. Go to the image of the Toys Page that anon 07:55 above provided a link for. Then copy the image. Next open MS Paint if you have it and paste the image of the Toys Page into its workspace. Next draw a thin straight yellow line from the fork at the top of the Jacob's Ladder at the top right side of the image with the letter B just above it down and to the left until it hits the bottom right corner of the large letter E. That yellow line passes through the two top hammermens' hammerheads and the nose of the lower left axeman. Bessler had to very carefully place these items in the Toys Page so they would have this precise alignment.
DeleteI think the interpretation is very simple. Bessler is telling us that there is information here about the levers inside of his wheels that had weights attached to them. The line also passes through the left axeman's nose to let you know that the information is "as plain as the nose on your face". What is that plain information? Take the two letters B and E at the ends of your yellow line and put them together side by side. That gives you BE which just happen to be the first two letters of Bessler's name! Then add the alphanumerical values for them to get 25. Why this number? It's as plain as the nose on your face. The 25th letter of the alphabet is---you probably guessed it by now---the letter "Y"! Something like this cannot be due to chance.
Bessler tells us repeatedly in the Toys Page that his levers had three arms each and the arms had to be rigidly fixed to each other to keep their "Y" shape. If you are working on trying to duplicate a Bessler wheel and your levers don't have 3 rigid arms, then you might want to seriously reconsider whatever clues you are using to determine the shapes of the levers.
Hope this can help someone.
@Anon 12:08
DeleteAstounding! I salute you sir. Yes BE = 25. Also 2 + 5 = 7 which is a lucky number and as I've mentioned before is a symbol for Seventh Heaven which according to the Old Testament was the abode of God Himself. It's a number that would have attracted Bessler's attention and he must have purposely put it into the toys page to bring himself luck in selling his wheel and also to honor God who he was convinced had given him the secret of pm in a vivid dream. I wish we knew what that dream was.
Sayer of Sooths
Astounding indeed! Astounding that anyone would even waste a second giving Henry L and anon 12.08’s ridiculous analysis of the Toys page a second’s consideration. The truth is far more robust and believable than your suggested number theory, you would be more convincing without the pseudo-numerological mumbo-jumbo.
DeleteJC
Anon 12:08 wrote "Bessler had to very carefully place these items in the Toys Page so they would have this precise alignment."
DeleteI agree. The five items you mention (the fork formed by the three tiles at the top of the Jacob ladder, the two heads on the top hammers, the left side axman's nose, and the pointed corner at the bottom of the letter E) all just happening by random chance to be on the same line has about maybe a one in a billion chance! No their alignment had to be done on purpose by Bessler and it does look like an important clue which I haven't seen discussed anywhere else. If Bessler's levers did have three arms each and John's levers don't, then he can't have Bessler's wheel. We don't know yet what his levers look like so maybe they do have three arms each. I certainly hope so.
@SoS
The letters B and E are the first two letters of Bessler's name. But they are also the first two letters of Ken B's last name BEhrendt! Coincidence? Destiny? This is starting to get spooky!
Also astounding how many times the number 13 shows up in the toys page. 13 is a very important number in the Bible and in numerology and is actually considered to be a lucky number.
DeleteHere's what I found from left to right:
1.) There are 8 of the X sections in that scissor toy on the left and the letter E which has value 5. Add those to get 8 + 5 = 13
2.) The three letters at the bottom are E, D, and D. Adding their values gives 5 + 4 + 4 = 13 If you add the values of the two D's to the 5 in the written note on the bottom of the page you get 4 + 4 + 5 = 13 again.
3.) Add the number of coils in the spring body of the left axeman to the number of coils in the spring body of the right axeman. 6 + 7 =13
4.) Multiply the values of the two C's and add to that the value of the first D under the bottom C. 3 x 3 + 4 = 9 + 4 = 13
5.) Add all of the letters from A to the top D. A + B + C + C + D = 1 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 4 = 13
6.) Add the value of the B to the number of pieces in the Jacob's Ladder. 2 + 11 = 13
7.) Finally take a close look at the letter B. I looks like the numbers 1 and the 3 pushed together. When you pull them apart you have 13!
This is too much of a coincidence to be one. Bessler loaded the toys page up with hidden 13's to honor God and get as much luck as possible.
Sayer of Sooths
But despite all of these efforts it has not lead to a working design. It is a waste of time that could be better spent on a mechanical explanation. Everyone is entitled to its own solution but only one will be correct.
DeleteThank you for the offer Suresh. But I must decline, I don't think the alliance would hold. Besides, the satisfaction will be much greater if you have solved it all by yourself. Also, there will be less time spent on discussion.
ReplyDeleteI wish you luck and success.
I agree with Robert and Marinus...
ReplyDeleteSelf satisfaction of achievement is more important...
But I am worried...300 years have passed and would we ever get a chance to see the real wheel running... more than 10 years hearing all this just in this blog... considering that some of us being at the fag end of life...you may not believe just a month ago I suffered a heart attack... almost felt like leaving this body...
With the prevailing trend the success appears to be far-fetched... just consider JC sir's final response to my children playing quiz...
He stated very much correctly that though the poem is interesting but you need to know the secret first to relate with the words in the poem...I agree with him...
This simply means one thing... that none of us is in the know of Bessler Wheel secret...
That also means we stand nowhere as far as solving is concerned...
It is a pity, isn't it?... How long things should go this way...I joined this blog some 10 years back and no any progress yet...
One thing I want to share with you guys... believe it or not...but it is a fact...I know JC sir will laugh and simply dis the same...
After death man is reborn...all his experience and basic nature and fears, etc., Is carried forward... into the next life as per his karma...
Bessler struggled and finally fell to his death...
He must have certainly taken rebirth and may even be amongst us endeavouring to finish the unfinished task in his previous life... That is rebuild the wheel and sell it successfully...
One way of ascertaining this is by checking to see if any of us having the phobia of fear of heights... because Bessler fell from a height and he would definitely dread to look down from a certain height...
Pls don't laugh out loud and rule out the same as being very ridiculous...
Hhmmm, as you correctly Assume, Suresh, I don’t necessarily believe in Karma, but I will admit two things, firstly it almost seems as though there is a guiding hand helping us to rediscover Bessler’s secret at this extremely important point in mankind’s recent history..I’m talking about climate change and the need to stop burning fossil fuel; and secondly, yes I do have a fear of heights..
DeleteJC
Suresh wrote "This simply means one thing... that none of us is in the know of Bessler Wheel secret..."
DeleteAmazing how readily he speaks for others here when he should more properly be writing that it is HE who is not "in the know of Bessler Wheel secret"!
On the contrary. The solution has been presented here a few times. You and the others simply choose to dismiss it or give it any consideration. Likely because it does not fit your view of what the solution ought to be.
DeleteI haven’t see “the” solution presented even once here, Somehow I seem to have missed it.
DeleteJC
Everyone is chasing his own theory and is trying to prove that. Now some people (=KB) are presenting a theory that can only be verified if you put a lot of time in it and follow their line of thinking. A solution is not guaranteed. Otherwise they would have build it themselves. But for some reason they can't. If you can't build it, your out of the game. Even if you have the right design. You then have to wait until someone else finds it. And then you can say that you had mysterious coded clues which pointed to exactly that design.
DeleteThat, my friend, is not gonna count.
Marinus wrote "And then you can say that you had mysterious coded clues which pointed to exactly that design....That, my friend, is not gonna count."
DeleteIf you are basing a design on only a few clues then that certainly is not going to count and will probably be wrong. But if you are basing it on dozens of clues then that is a different matter. The more clues the better and the higher the probability of you getting closer to what Bessler had. Right now there is so much confusion as to what is and is not a clue that little progress can be made.
A few clues is all we have and that is enough to test the design. Finding as many imaginary clues as you can will make it a game of chance. That is not gonna help. Even if some turn out to be oke. It is the build that counts. Words mean nothing. But some distorted ego's seem to need recognition.
DeleteI, for one do not like heights and just about freeze up if I look straight down
ReplyDelete