When I look back over my many iterations to find the solution to Bessler’s wheel, I’m amazed at the variety of designs I’ve tried, but some seem utterly useless in retrospect, and I wonder why I even thought they might lead to success. But trial and error is a great way to reach understanding - and a wealth of experience of failure helps! But sometimes it’s worth looking back at previous designs with the improved knowledge of hindsight.
I’m still working on the Bessler project and hoping to finish it with a working proof of principle wheel. I’m reluctant to share my work before I’ve finished it for reasons I’ll explain, but I’m providing an update because despite recent failed sims I’m still working on the project. There has been some fair criticism that with my recent failed design I did not explain how I arrived at that design and why I attributed it to Bessler’s clues. I could demonstrate what clues I used and my understanding of them, but without a working model they are no more valid than Ken B’s clues, so until I succeed I will say as little as possible about them.
The reason for my reluctance to share my work is because, in my experience, publishing examples of logical clue interpretation, code deciphering and inspired speculation, however impressive I might think it is, receives little positive feedback. I think that people are being bombarded with theories from all around the world and without any firm evidence in the form of a working wheel, it’s just so much speculation and hot air. Everyone has their own pet theories and any one of them might lead to success.
I am making this current version of the wheel according to my personal belief that I know the answer, which came to me from an article I wrote over ten years ago. It’s ironic that a design I considered so long ago and which might hold the answer was missed and its implications unnoticed. But better late than never.
I’m working on what I think is the design concept that allowed Bessler’s wheel to act within the rules of physics. It’s not an amazing revelation, just something that clicked in my mind when I considered three apparently unrelated items, a reported feature of Bessler’s wheel and something in the article I mentioned above plus a detail I had been working on previously.
I feel as though 2021 will be my best shot at making a working PoP wheel, and I’m going to finish it. I had a huge workshop until 4 years ago when we moved house, then it was the garage, now it’s a small corner of the garage, what next? Who knows? So simulating may well be the next step - but only after I’ve finished this build! It it works I can forget the sims. 😁
JC
"..., which came to me from an article I wrote over ten years ago."
ReplyDeleteDo you have a link to that article?
I guessed some one would ask for a link to the article, 😄. I wrote it for a magazine but I only have printed copy of it, but I based one of my web sites on it and you can find more information on it at,
Deletewww.besslerswheel.com - click on the second page, “principle”. Something I wrote about there, meshed with two other things and I think I’m on the right track again!
JC
Thanks John. A parametric oscillator is a better lead than "deciphered clues". Purely from a scientific point of view; Bessler's wheel can not be anything else than an oscillator. MT85 and MT86 also hints that way. I wish you luck.
DeleteJC wrote "I(f) it works I can forget the sims."
DeleteHmm...with the latest UK lockdown it's a good time to start practicing making those sims. Something tells me you are going to need them!
Thanks anon 4 Jan. 21:15. Well said. Besides "principle" don't forget to see also "the mechanisms theoretically"---very important!
ReplyDeleteLooks like you're back to that kiiking stuff again. I thought it had been dismissed as unworkable a long time ago because it takes energy to shift the weights around and then you only get back the same amount of energy again so there's no real gain. As soon as you stop supplying a mechanism that uses it with external energy the whole thing will coast to a stop due to energy dissipating drag. Beating a dead horse can keep one's arm busy but it never manages to get the horse up and running again. But good luck with your efforts anyway. We'll have to see how long you can keep beating that kiiking horse before your arm finally gets tired.
ReplyDeleteOn your website's "Principle" page you wrote:
"Both the published and the unpublished works of Bessler are strewn with clues both textual and graphic and when there is no apparent reason for their inclusion, such as is the case with this one, it is safe to assume that it has been included for some purpose not cosmetic."
Why is it "safe" to assume that? If you assume that falsely, then you will be wasting much time and effort chasing mirages. Unfortunately, that is what about 99% of those studying the Bessler drawings will wind up doing and it will lead to nothing real. Maybe Bessler stuck various decorative designs into his writings because he just liked the way they looked or he had seen some other author do something similar and wanted to copy him or he wanted to impress the reader with his artistic ability?
Trying to decide what Bessler drawed that was just decorative and what was an actual clue is no easy thing to do. You will never really know for sure unless, taking something as a clue and properly interpreting it, it leads to something that actually works. I think all of the real clues in his books were really only meant to be easily pointed out by him if and when that became necessary in his future when someone else came up with the exact same wheel design Bessler had and then claimed he that other inventor was the original inventor and not Bessler. Bessler would then point to those clues he previously hid in his books and explain to everyone why they proved he Bessler was the first inventor of the design. I don't think he would have done something like that unless he was one hundred percent sure there was only a single design that would work and that he Bessler had found it first.
DeleteRight. So if you find a runner it is yours and yours alone. You earned it. As we have seen any number of deciphered 'clues' has led to any number of unworkable designs. The 'clues' can fit just about any design, and have done. Unless Bessler left a single smoking gun clue that can't be disputed in hindsight. He'd need that to prove his provenance.
Delete"So if you find a runner it is yours and yours alone."
DeleteNot necessarily. Bessler believed that he had found the ONLY design that would ever work and IF he was right, then ANY pm wheel design anybody else finds later that actually works MUST be the same design Bessler found first. But proving that won't be easy because we don't have any of Bessler's original wheels to compare that later design to. All we THINK we have are various clues he left in his writings and drawings that he intended to be very difficult to impossible for others to even find let alone correctly interpret. They were meant for his eyes only. So, until and unless they can be found and correctly interpreted, a later inventor can never really know for sure that his successful pm gravity wheel invention is different from the one Bessler discovered. There would always be some doubt in his mind as well as the minds of others.
Imo Bessler was wrong about that. I can't believe that there is only one way to build a working gravity wheel and Bessler was the only one who ever found it. There might be as Fletcher keeps telling us only one principle that allows gravity powered pm but there would probably be many variations that used that one principle with each variation being a unique mechanical design of its own. This should become obvious after we finally have at least two different working pm wheels to compare with each other. Meanwhile we still have to get that first wheel!
DeleteNot everyone is attempting to correctly decipher and interpret all the Bessler 'clues'. Reverse engineering B's. PM Principle and wheel is a valid approach to solving the mystery, but as we have all seen is fraught with extreme difficulties of B's. making. Others stride out on their own, attempting to deduce a mechanical PM Principle, and how it is successfully applied. Those trail blazers cut their own path whilst keeping an interest in B's. 'clues' and those that attempt to unravel them. As I said earlier B. may have left one smoking gun 'clue' to prove his provenance in hindsight, should someone else be successful in the future. So what would a smoking gun look like ? It would have to be able to be linked back to him as the first to write it down. So it would be in MT. He would have to tell us that this 'clue' was of utmost importance, indispensable, the crux of a runner. If he didn't overtly tell us he might create future doubt of authenticity. And he does imo. ".. NOTHING is to be accomplished with his thing UNLESS one acts out of my connectedness principle;" That may be the common smoking gun to ALL potentially successful PM wheels, traceable back to B., imo ! How you apply it is of course for you to find.
Delete-f
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Deletefletcher quoted: "...NOTHING is to be accomplished with his thing UNLESS one acts out of my connectedness principle."
DeleteThe full note from MT 9 is: "Such is the case with Leupold, but nothing is to be accomplished with his thing unless one acts out of my connectedness principle; but here I do not yet wish to show or discuss the figure for the time being."
Here's an image of Jacob Leupold's wheel from his "Theatrum Machinarum Generale" volume of 1724 that Bessler was referring to which is in the lower right corner of the page:
https://mostre.museogalileo.it/motoperpetuo/images/bagallery/gallery-2/thumbnail/category-24/24_Leupold_73.jpg?1574673154
Amazing how close it is to MT 13 (that also has 12 levers with weights) which some (mainly SoS, IIRC) believe was the design that Bessler finally figured out how to make work after eliminating its big weight hanging off of its axle. How did he make it work? Had to be with added connecting cords and counter balancing springs of some sort. He also would have reduced the number of levers from 12 down to only 8. His "connectedness principle" has to be a unique combination of cords and springs that manage to keep the CoG of the weights always on the wheel's descending side as it rotates. Find that and you will solve the Bessler wheel.
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DeleteMany of us believe mt13 is very important.
Deletehttps://www.e-rara.ch/zut/content/zoom/3583257
Bottom right of page - XVI
SG's revelation LOL.
Agreed, anon 04:58. SG has pushed that Fig. XVI thing from Leupold's book in the past and no one believed it then either. It just shows a compound lever system that lets a lighter weight balance a heavier one which can also be done using only a single lever. SG gives no details on how Fig. XVI could be used to make an overbalanced wheel because he does not know how that could be done. I agree with you that MT13 is important and a lot more work has to be done with designs like it.
DeleteSG gives no details? Of course he doesn't! As TOP GURU here his main goal is to just keep sounding as mysterious as possible by always hinting that he's got superior knowledge of Bessler's wheels without ever revealing anything useful. If you don't believe him then that's YOUR fault not his because it is YOU who does not have enough faith to believe in his every word without him having to provide the slightest bit of proof of anything he says. That's how he became TOP GURU here. It is a skill not easily mastered as SK learned a while ago when he tried but lost the race to become this blog's TOP GURU.
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DeleteSG has now achieved the highest state of supreme guruship possible! You can tell because he now no longer makes any sense whatsoever...except to himself of course! All hail SG!
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DeleteDELUSIONAL IDIOT !
DeleteThere's a suitcase filled with these waiting for the first guy to make a real working pm machine!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lotto-logix.com/arthouse/millbill.gif
I'm not greedy...I'd settle for just a fat wallet stuffed with those! Lol!
Delete@anon 20:06
DeleteToo bad it's a fake million dollar bill. But I guess it would be the perfect currency to use to buy the rights to a fake pm wheel!
Anonymous and PROUD of it!
Mornin .. I think if we stick at it long enough, with enough determination and resilience, we all eventually become something of experts at what doesn't work. Well, perhaps not experts, perhaps students, because many of us go back again and again to what we know, with a slight variation on a theme that must be a step closer to a runner we think. If we expertly knew why that family of designs could not be a runner we would not turn that rock over again. So perhaps we each reach very different levels of understanding and comprehension of the 'problem', and hopefully regardless of where that is for you it increases for each one of us as time passes and we learn more. I would hope so, else we'd be stuck in a world of endless ground hog days. Collectively, by sharing our steps and journey, we march side by side forwards to a destination.
ReplyDeleteAs long as time does not run out, and our desire remains to solve the mystery, and our faculties are intact, and we haven't gone mad from so much introspective thought, then eventually the mechanical permutations and opportunities left to explore logically dwindles. "-f .. If you burn the haystack you will find the needle."
Happy hunting in 2021 to all, and may you be blessed with new and invigorating ideas to explore or revisit with a twist ! Just as John has !
-f
"...If you burn the haystack you will find the needle."
DeleteI tried that. The fire spread to my farmhouse and barn. Now I'm sleeping in my truck. I never did find that damn needle!
Next time you might consider using a metal detector, but get a good one that has a longer range and is more sensitive.
DeleteBetter yet, anon 04:47, stop storing your needles in haystacks! Try storing them in maybe a kitchen drawer like many others do.
DeleteMy haystack won't fit in my kitchen draw.
DeleteYou either need smaller haystacks, larger drawers, or both! Or just use needles bigger than your current haystacks so it will be impossible to lose one in them. Most problems in life have simple solutions like this.
DeleteYes , the Kiiking movement is essential; there is no other way to fulfill Mr.Bessler's "SUDDENLY FLIES UPWARD " clause. See Scott Ellis' clear exposition on this point. This is applied JERK PHYSICS !
ReplyDeleteIs that the physics only believed in by jerks?
DeleteKiiking hmm.... It is not enough to move up and down.
ReplyDeleteTry to remember when you are sitting on a swing. You move the center of gravity backwards and forwards. You lean back and then fore. At the exact time of course.
Every time someone leans back or forth on a swing he must raise his body's cog which boosts his gpe. That takes chemical energy from his body which acts like a motor and battery. That added gpe turns into added ke to increase his swing speed and help him rise higher at the end of each swing. If he stops leaning back and forth his swing will dampen to a standstill and hang below its pivots. There's no pm magic in swinging or kiiking. Many have tried to make perpetual swings and so far no success (possible exception in the Asa Jackson wheel).
Deleteyes.... applied jerk physics is used in the " ARC-OVER "
ReplyDeleteYes , the Kiiking movement is essential; there is no other way to fulfill Mr.Bessler's "SUDDENLY FLIES UPWARD "
ReplyDeleteWell, that's an understatement... In my opinion, there is...
It may surprise many that it has taken more than 300 years and yet most are still fumbling about as far as BW is concerned... I mean we have not even figured out how the weights are raised effortlessly, in a Jiffy... One reason for this is that there are too many distractions by way of false claims... If we can't arrive at the truth that's understandable but declaring that there's no other way is utter fallacy... And this coming from a distinguished BW stalwart is simply preposterous, isn't it?...
The internal mechanism of BW is ridiculously simple and I can vouch for it with my life... What Karl saw and wrote is nothing but absolute truth... It is just that we haven't made the required effort in the right direction... There's that great ego in each one of us which is another blockade... We just lack that basic discerning mind if I can say that... Or is it the common sense... I just fail to understand how can one be so reckless by declaring that there can't be any other way to get the weights up fast... It is good to be a devoted follower but is it also good to be a blind follower?... Has wisdom just taken a back seat or it is just a manifestation of heard mentality?...
In a basic see-saw action does the counter-weight not speed up simultaneously?...
Yes... The ascending weights do go up at the same falling weights' rate... And, this can be achieved by anyone who learns to work it out independently... I mean, just be yourself... a bit different from others' opinions... With honest efforts ofcourse... God Bless everyone in this New Year with sound mentality... Never distract others...
Good day...
Watch out, SG, it looks like SK may be trying to dethrone you as TOP GURU on this blog!
DeleteI doubt it, his appetence for appearing it covers him with ridicule, poor bell.
DeleteIt does appear that Bessler implies the weights must move up quickly, but I am at a loss to see how kiiking is essential to making this happen. I have watched numerous kiiking videos on youtube and the movements the swingers make are not quick.
ReplyDeleteFrom MT19
"This invention would be very good for running if not so much friction were present or someone was available up by D to always lift up the weight with lightning speed."
From AP
"The weights which rest below must, in a flash, be raised upwards."
@anon 17:24
DeleteYour quote belongs to MT 13 and not MT 19!
That other quote from AP that you gave which contains the phrase "...in a flash..." might have been poorly translated. It might have been better translated as just "...quickly..." or "...rapidly..." which makes one think the rise of the weights although fast wasn't really done that fast. One must be careful not to let inaccurate translations send one down the wrong path when trying to figure out how Bessler's wheels worked.
Bessler Curious
Your warning is unnecessary Ken, there have been several translations carried out on the German original, and basically the motion is extremely rapid. You must be careful not to throw doubt on other people’s efforts and offer your own verbose guesses. We suffer from your logorrhoea, as I’ve said before!
DeleteJC
John, IIRC BC has told you several times before that he is not Ken. But he does make a good point, imo.
DeleteWe can convince ourselves for years to accept as accurate a particular translation until someone comes along and gives a different one claiming it is more accurate. After a while we have several possibly valid translations of the same words or phrases and can't be absolutely sure which is the best to use. Ultimately it will be the translations that finally lead to a working wheel which can be considered to be correct.
People buying your translation of AP have to keep in mind that it was an attempt to turn early 18th century German language poetry verses into modern English prose to make them "more readable". That unfortunately can result in a lot of errors being made in their original intended meanings depending on the particular biases of the translator and what guesses to their meanings he makes whether you want to admit it or not.
My god, what a talkfest from KB and his 5 pseudonyms. Here is the German ! At least quote the original text before dismissing an experts (Mike Senior) translation. Then at least the German speakers can have a go at alternative interpretations with some authority.
DeleteAP pg 182 :
Und welch’ Gewichte unten ruh’n,
Die müsten nauff in einem Nun; x.
Daß aber dieses solt’ angehen,
Wil Wagners Glaube nicht gestehen.
See the other translations discussed on the BW forum, they all come to the same conclusion.
DeleteJC
The critical part of this quote is the English translation of "Die müsten nauff in einem Nun..." which can be translated as "They have to rise up in a moment". I think translating it as "They have to rise up in a flash" could give one the false impression of the actual speed of a rising weight. A "moment" to me means maybe a second or two, but a "flash" implies a fraction of a second and is much faster. I think I agree with BC that this could be another example of a poor translation in AP.
DeleteAmazing how much discussion there is here about how fast the weights were rising in Bessler's wheels when he says in another quote that the weights inside of his wheels did not need to rise up!
DeleteAP Pg 219 :
DeleteHier könnt' ich schreiben noch viel Zeilen;
Allein, ich muß zum Ende eilen:
Schad't nichts, wenn mein Mund gleich noch schweigt,
Wie die überwucht so plötzlich steigt. x.
Wasch' deine Hände erst mit Seifen,
Der du das Ding nicht kannst begreifen,
Und wie die Kunst sich um und um
Heb't übers Hypomochlium, &c.
A more literal translation by Stewart :
Here I could write still a lot of lines;
Only, I must hurry to the end:
Nothing harmed, if my mouth equally still remains quiet,
How the excess weight SO SUDDENLY rises. x.
Wash your hands only with soaps,
You the thing cannot understand,
And how the art to itself around and around
Lifts about the fulcrum, &c.
Bessler wrote AP in Rhyme. Rhyming the German language!
Mike Senior and Stewart are unable to translate to English and retain the rhyming words at end of sentences and rhythm of the rhyming style. So they are forced to translate in a prose style, and try and capture the intent.
So suddenly, in a flash (elsewhere), in a moment!
All indicate a short interval of time.
In the above the context is important. Bessler was replying to Wagner's critique about the regular speed of his wheels etc. With falling and raising weights internally. If the Merseburg went at 50 rpm then weights would be raised in a short time to keep that regularity. The same regularity that the Merseburg wheel had lifting the 6 bricks through the window, without losing any rpm. See the witness statements and testimonials.
DeleteAnon 23:43 wrote: "Amazing how much discussion there is here about how fast the weights were rising in Bessler's wheels when he says in another quote that the weights inside of his wheels did not need to rise up!"
DeleteI'm not aware of Bessler writing that anywhere. It would make no sense.
@anon 04:05
DeleteYou can find this on page 334 of AP:
“Listen...my weights are not like those in turnspits and clocks. They don’t need to be raised up...it’s a different arrangement altogether from what you see in mill wheels, turnspits and clocks."
I think what he's saying here is that the weights inside of his wheel drums weren't suspended by chains or ropes and somehow mechanically connected by gears to the hidden part of the axle inside of the drum so they could make the wheel turn rapidly as they slowly descended. If that was the case, then they would have to be periodically raised up to keep the drum turning. That is what happens inside of a weight powered clock and Bessler didn't want people to think he had just build a kind of giant clock with a rotating outer drum instead of rotating hands on a dial. But there are other ways for a weight to be raised up inside of the drum than this way. If they were attached to the ends of small levers near the outer circumference of the drum that suddenly flipped up like they were supposed to do in MT 13 that would be one way and would cause them to "rise in a flash".
jason
Thank you to those above who explained clearly what was established over many months in the BW forum; the weight is raised suddenly and quickly - and the confusion about the weights not needing too be raised relates to weight driven clocks. Ken B strikes again with his spurious arguments!
DeleteJC
The only way a weight can rise quickly points to the design that John has put forward. Those small circles have a quick movement, plus if Bessler said that there are no weights hanging from my axle then, once again, Johns design fits the bill quite nicely
ReplyDelete