Wednesday, 3 November 2021

I’ve Decided to Resurrect some Earlier Blogs which I Think/Hope might be of more Interest than when they were First Posted

This blog was originally posted in October 2014.  

This Circular Argument has run for 174 years; Is It Perpetual Motion?

I wrote a poem out of frustration that such an idiotic argument could ever have been taken seriously, don’t worry, I won’t reproduce it here!  Hermann von Helmholtz (August 31, 1821 – September 8, 1894) was a brilliant German physician and physicist but as so often happens, he was credited with discoveries outside of his area of expertise, hence the acceptance of a conjecture so easily disposed of, that the mere fact that it is relied upon to dismiss such theories as I have researched over many years, defies logic.

With acknowledgement and grateful thanks to Scott Ellis of Besslerwheel forum:-

"In 1847, a 26-year-old German medical doctor, Hermann Helmholtz, gave a presentation to the Physical Society of Berlin that would change the course of history. He presented the original formulation of what is now known as the First Law of Thermodynamics, beginning with the axiomatic statement that a Perpetual Motion Machine is impossible.

Axiom - A statement or proposition that is accepted as true without proof.

No one had ever succeeded, he wrote, in building a Perpetual Motion Machine that worked. Therefore, such machines must be impossible. If they are impossible it must be because of some natural law preventing their construction. This law, he said, could only be the Conservation of Energy.

But a profound reversal of reasoning has occurred in the last century. Helmholtz originally said "Because a Perpetual Motion Machine is impossible, therefore the First Law of Thermodynamics must apply;" while in any physics text book today one will find the statement that "Because of the First Law of Thermodynamics, a Perpetual Motion Machine is impossible."

Skeptics are quick to cite the Laws of Thermodynamics to disprove Bessler's claims. In fact, the argument is circular. 

The Laws of Thermodynamics do not prove that Bessler's machine is impossible. On the contrary, they are deduced from the "leap of faith" of first presuming it is impossible." 

It is often found that people who are recognised for their expertise in one field often comment on areas outside their experience and because of their celebrity their ideas are accepted.

Of course in this case the expert was a 26 year old medical student. Others such as Lord Kelvin in 1895 stated that “heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible” .

Lord Kelvin could not know what would happen in the future, and apparently, Hermann von Helmholtz didn’t even know what had happened in the past, over one hundred years before.



JC

31 comments:

  1. This looks like a good past blog to recycle.

    I think that the first law of thermodynamics is valid and it does not require any discussion of pm machines to prove it. This law basically says that energy cannot just appear out of nowhere. Energy is defined as the ability to do work. So when energy is available work can be done which means that masses can be accelerated to higher speeds, masses can rise in gravity fields, objects can get hotter, and things like springs can get more compressed or more stretched.

    These are all the effects of the presence of addition energy somewhere. However, if one believes that the first law of thermodynamics is not valid and that energy can just appear from nowhere, then he is actually believing that one can have effect without cause. That's basically the same as believing in magic!

    So, unless pm machines work by magic, then they cannot be creating energy out of nothing. That energy they put out has to have a source. For the hoaxers of pm machines, that source will be a hidden conventional one that they hope no one can discover or figure out. Were Bessler's wheels then hoaxes? Not necessarily. His wheels had to have an energy source of some type and they would only be able to run as long as they could take energy from that source. Their energy source would have been an unconventional one and it's possible that even Bessler did not understand it.

    Now all that has to be done is to figure out what that energy source was because, unless and until that is done, we may never understand how his wheels worked. And if we don't understand how they worked, then the chance of duplicating one of them will be very low as the last three centuries of total failures after Bessler have shown.

    Stan

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    1. How many "unconventional" energy sources could they have had back in the early 18th century? They only had animals straining their muscles, burning wood and coal to make some steam, and water wheels and wind mills to grind wheat. If Bessler's wheels used any of these in any way then they were essentially nothing more than heat engines...kind of like those little toy stirling engines you can buy online. They also had natural magnets like lodestone, but no one ever figured out how to make them produce energy. In the 1740's and 1750's two inventors, Andrew Gordon and Benjamin Franklin, did manage to make working electrostatic motors but that happened after Bessler died.

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    2. Back then many probably believed Bessler was into sorcery and his wheels were being powered by invisible demons from hell! Maybe if we could find the right spells we could get some of those demons to start powering our wheels? There are probably a lot of pm wheel chasers out there right now that would gladly trade their immortal souls for a little demonic assistance with their wheels!

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  2. I submit that Helmholtz did know about Bessler. Like all scientist, he couldn't figure out how the wheel worked. Then, he was compelled to make up this bull sh*t law, to let him self off the hook------------------Sam

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    1. If Helmholtz knew about Bessler then he probably just wrote his wheels off as clever hoaxes like close to 100% of the scientists do today. But, I have to agree with Stan, you don't have to even talk about pm machines to establish the truth of the first law of thermo. You can't have something, like energy or mass, come from nothing. It's just not possible. If Bessler's wheels worked and they obviously did, they had to have an energy source of some kind. They could not make energy. But, good luck figuring out what and where that energy source was.

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    2. JC wrote: “It is often found that people who are recognised for their expertise in one field often comment on areas outside their experience and because of their celebrity their ideas are accepted.”

      John don’t blame Helmholtz, he is innocent. Other celebrities of their time did “comment on areas outside their experience”, namely Leo da Vinci, or your country men I. Newton : “ The seekers after perpetual motion are trying to get something from nothing.”. Science and physics was their expertise, PM was not. The whole mess is caused by big misunderstanding or rather luck of understanding of what PM is, what it supposed to do and what not.

      Science “decided“, PM in order to work has to create energy, create more energy then it consumes, sounds like Over Unity, and in this context science is right, it is impossible, however this is the big mistake science committed.

      Here is definition of PM from Britannica: “perpetual motion, the action of a device that, once set in motion, would continue in motion forever, with no additional energy required to maintain it.” in my opinion, the best and most accurate description of PM.
      Just one sentence and it tells a lot. Most important it does not tell PM in order to work has to create energy, create more energy then it consumes.
      As you can see in all of it, I did not mention Bessler, because Bessler is not my hero,
      Do I believe Bessler built PM? No, I don’t. I know he did.

      Have fun
      BNR

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    3. BNR wrote: "Do I believe Bessler built PM? No, I don’t. I know he did."

      You might think you know that, but you really don't. For you to "know" he created pm you would have to be able to live forever to keep one of his running wheels under observation and verify that it was not stopping. Even if you had a working reproduction of one of his wheels today to test, I doubt if you would also be immortal to conduct such an experiment.

      Actually, Newton's 1st Law of Motion guarantees that perpetual motion is possible. However, it is only possible as long as a moving object traveling through space does not collide with any other objects to which it gives some of its limited amount of kinetic energy. If enough of such collisions do occur, then the object will eventually stop moving when it has no kinetic energy left to loose.

      The kind of pm that those trying to build pm machines are looking for and assume Bessler had would be the kind that, while moving forever, would also be able to supply an unlimited amount of kinetic energy to outside objects to make them move. That kind of pm is not possible according to the first law of thermodynamics.

      Were Bessler's wheels that kind of pm? According to the first law of thermodynamics, the answer is no. Those who are fascinated by Bessler's wheels only assume that they could run forever while constantly providing kinetic energy to outside objects. There is no actual proof of that. Yes, his Kassal wheel ran for about two months. That's impressive, but it's microscopic compared to eternity. Even if that wheel had run for a decade, it would still not prove that it was that kind of pm machine.

      Stan

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    4. Oh Stan! "For you to "know" he created pm you would have to be able to live forever"
      How did you figure that out?
      If a wheel rotates, say at 26 rpm, constantly, and its speed of rotation does not change, meaning it does not go up, it does not go down, do you realy have to live forever to know it will rotate indefinitely? In case you don't like forever.

      Have fun
      BNR

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    5. One more addition, when CD's DVD's where inveted, the inventors declared this discs will hold their data for 26000 years, did they live that long to prove it?

      Have fun
      BNR

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    6. "Those who are fascinated by Bessler's wheels only assume that they could run forever while constantly providing kinetic energy to outside objects. There is no actual proof of that"

      Oh Stan! I just finished reading your comment. Read the eyewitnesses accounts, that is the prove beyond any shadow of doubt.

      Have fun
      BNR

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    7. Oh BNR!

      I have read all of the eyewitness accounts and none of them "prove beyond any shadow of a doubt" that Bessler's wheels could run forever while constantly providing outside machines with kinetic energy. That is only an assumption that you and others make.

      As I wrote in my first comment on this blog, "Now all that has to be done is to figure out what that energy source was because, unless and until that is done, we may never understand how his wheels worked."

      The only way Bessler's wheels could run forever while constantly providing kinetic energy is if they were able to tap an infinite source of energy. Any planet, star, galaxy, or even our entire visible universe can only have a finite amount of energy so they would not be able to supply enough energy for Bessler's wheels to actually be the kind of pm machines that the pm chasers assume they are.

      The only thing that could have infinite energy would be the entire cosmos containing an infinite number of galaxies that our best telescopes today cannot see and never will see no matter how much they are improved. Does anybody actually think that one of Bessler's wheels, located on our dust speck of a planet, would be able to tap into an energy source that big? No way. No matter how long one of Bessler's wheels was tested and ran continuously, there would always be some future time when it would stop. There is no way of getting around the first law of thermodynamics...unless, of course, one believes in magic. I don't.

      You have fun too.

      Stan

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    8. Perpetual motion is a motion that would theoretically continue forever, if their were no changes whatsoever to the construction, or the environment in which it moves.
      Nobody needs to watch the bloody thing until the end of eternity, to check that it is perpetual motion.
      bessler's wheel would definitely stop at some point in the future, of this there is absolutely no doubt (zero). This has nothing to do with the question of was it PM.

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    9. RH46, shouldn't you check it every million years or so, maybe squirt some oil on it? Just kidding-------------------Sam

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    10. Follow up. I'm a farm boy. All it has to do is run all day, I can start it back up in the morning. After all, who wants that noise thing running all night; it would keep your hens awake----------------Sam

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    11. Sam, I think you have finally suggested exactly how Bessler's wheels worked! Inside the drums he had trained CHICKENS! He probably had some gadget hanging from the axle that would drop grains of wheat on the descending side of their drums. The chickens would then run up the inside of a drum to get the grains and that imbalance made the drum start turning. In fact, to boost torque, each drum could have contained several concentric levels each with its own group of hungry chickens and the mechanism on the axle could sprinkle grain onto all of them.

      At Gera didn't someone say they heard clucking sounds coming from the drum? At Draschwitz someone said they actually saw some FEATHERS coming out from between the wood slats covering the drum! IIRC, someone at the official test of the Merseburg wheel actually saw an EGG drop out of the drum when Bessler was removing those phony lead weights he put in there to make everyone think that the wheel as moved by them. Bessler's secret was almost exposed then, but he managed to distract everyone by snapping a spring inside of the drum that made a loud noise that startled everyone.

      A lot of people don't know that Bessler always kept chickens at all of his residences because he loved eggs and considered them very healthy to eat every day. I think he got that advice from an alchemist he saved from drowning one day. Btw, Count Karl also kept a large number of chickens in a corner of the garden behind Weissenstein Castle.

      Coincidences? No way! Bessler's wheels were powered by the motions of hungry chickens. When one of them died from being overworked, Bessler just remove it and had it for dinner. Waste not, want not as Benjamin Franklin once wrote.

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    12. @anon 23:29
      I thought you were full of chicken manure until I saw this:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmHSuDrW5vg

      Yes, Bessler most likely did use chicken power inside of his wheels. It's the only solution for the energy source they used that makes any sense and shows how easily the "scientists" back there could be fooled. In the video a rooster is used, but they can make a racket. Chickens are better because they make less noise. Also, much thanks to Sam for opening our eyes to this possibility which only a farm boy like him would have realized.

      Thanks, Sam!

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    13. Actually roosters are chickens...male chickens. I think when you wrote "Chickens are better..." you really meant "Hens are better...". Yes, they are quieter because some of the roosters I have can crow throughout the day and sometimes even throughout the night!

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    14. I wouldn't feed the chickens while in my wheel to make them run up the inside of the rim. No, feed them before you put them into the drum so they have full bellies and plenty of energy for running.

      Inside the wheel have a paddle hanging down from the axle with some nails sticking out of the bottom end of it only file down the points. When you give the wheel a little spin the nail points will poke the chickens in their butts and motivate them to start running to get away from them. That will get your wheel moving.

      When you want the wheel to reverse direction just stop it and turn it in the other direction so that the paddle flips over the top and starts poking the chickens in their butts from the other side. That will make them run up the rim on the other side of the drum.

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  3. According to my research and observations, a PM must draw a little more energy than necessary at each turn, which implies a self-acceleration, so provide a load or a reducer, on a flywheel... Where does the energy come from? From the initial imbalance, which resets itself, a little faster and cheaper than expected.
    On this video, you should see:
    gravity doing its job and then kinetic force doing its job as well, the forces add up, causing the heavy weights to end up in an unexpected position.
    https://youtu.be/n4lUAy5touU
    I suggest to the skeptic to do some gardening, it's less annoying, than the zozos who think that the MP is possible. lol
    I'm not trying to convince, I know it's possible, and I'm taking my time, there's no rush even if...

    THX4

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    1. "Where does the energy come from? From the initial imbalance, which resets itself, a little faster and cheaper than expected."

      Yes, as the imbalance goes to equilibrium it can do work or supply some energy. Resetting the imbalance again does require work be done on the wheel's mechanisms and that energy can be taken from the RKE of the turning wheel. And, as you point out, that amount of work MUST be "cheaper" or less than what was delivered when the imbalance first went to equilibrium. If it's not, the wheel will only coast to a stop.

      But, how to do that? If gravity is a "conservative" force, then that should be impossible to do. How did Bessler's wheels manage to make the force of gravity behave like it wasn't conservative???

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    2. "But, how to do that? If gravity is a "conservative" force, then that should be impossible to do. How did Bessler's wheels manage to make the force of gravity behave like it wasn't conservative???"

      It's much simpler, but I'll show all this in about ten days, the imbalance is free, we have a capital joules, which must be spent with good sense lol. See you soon.

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    3. Thanks, thx4...we shall eagerly await your revelation...hopefully, it won't involve chickens!

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  4. Believing in the reality of pm is actually more an act of faith than of reason. Reason tells us that no machine can just make energy forever out of nothing or find some infinite source of it to extract for us to use. Faith tells us that if Bessler's biggest and strongest wheel could run for two months, then it should also be able to run forever...assuming it was made out of indestructible materials that never wore out. It's obvious that Bessler thought his wheels capable of doing that.

    The above assumes that one actually has a pm machine to somehow test. We don't at this time. But I have faith that, IF one ever appears, we will find a way to determine if it will eventually stop or if it can run forever at least in principle. And so what if it does stop working a million years from now? It could do a lot of useful work while it is running and no one who uses it today will be around a million years from now to be disappointed when it suddenly stops running.

    jason

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  5. Helmholtz originally said that since no one had succeeded in building a pm machine, therefore such a machine must be impossible. And, since they are impossible, he said that there must be some natural law that prohibits them from being built. Of course, that natural law which he proposed was eventually called "the First Law of Thermodynamics".

    I wonder, however, what Helmholtz would have said if he had known the details of Bessler's wheels which, I suspect, he did not. Most likely he would have just said Bessler's wheels were hoaxed and then continued to propose his principle of the conservation of energy.

    I think we have to be very careful about our definition of perpetual motion. Is it just motion that goes on forever without doing any work? Is it motion that goes on forever while continuously doing work? Can we call any motion perpetual if it only goes on for a million years while continuously doing work and then stops? I think there is much confusion about the definition of perpetual motion even among scientists.

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    1. "Can we call any motion perpetual if it only goes on for a million years while continuously doing work and then stops?"

      Considering the lousy results I get with everything I build, if I got something that ran for ten minutes I'd gladly call it "perpetual"!

      Maybe I should look into getting some chickens from a nearby farm?

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    2. No that doesn't count.
      I've made dozens of machines that ran, doing work, for about 750'000 years, give or take a couple of weeks. All total failures. None of them are perpetual motion.
      I wish i could get the hang of my time machine, so as to be able to actually meet Bessler and ask him how he did it.

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    3. Bessler just found an overbalanced wheel design that stayed overbalanced as it turned. It used lead weights, a lot of them, attached to the ends of levers. The levers were not independent of each other but connected together with cords or ropes in some way. Springs were involved. It's supposed to be a simple design.

      But, if it's so "simple", then why did no one rediscovered it in the last 300 or so years? The skeptics will just keep saying his wheels were all hoaxed and that we are only wasting our time trying to duplicate them...unless maybe we use chickens! They have lack of results to support their conclusion. But, we have some strong evidence to support our conclusion that they were genuine.

      What convinces me the most that they were genuine are the statements of Count Karl who would have actually seen the mechanisms of Bessler's wheels in motion. He was no fool and probably saw a lot of fake pm machines in his time. If he said it was genuine, then that settles the matter for me.

      But, the skeptics will then just say that the hoax was so clever that it fooled even him and that is certainly possible because even modern scientists have been fooled by skilled magicians. The skeptics will only accept that Bessler's wheels were genuine when they can personally examine and test a working wheel and like the count be able to say that it cannot possibly be a hoax. Let's hope that day comes soon.

      jason

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  6. Something tells me this blog topic isn't of any more interest now than it was when it was first posted back in October of 2014. I think people really want to see more clues and ones they haven't seen before a dozen times over. Where are those new clues from all of the alleged "experts" on Bessler's wheels?

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    1. You want new clues? Didn't you read above how they concluded that Bessler's wheels were powered by running chickens? Surely, that's a very important breakthrough in this subject and it's about time. Lol!

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  7. I must have slept through it. My Rooster didn't go off.

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    1. You probably forgot to wind and set your rooster before you dozed off. I've done the same myself several times.

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