Wednesday 21 November 2012

Bessler's Revelation - God or Intuition?

Bessler's belief in God seems to have been a constant theme throughout his life and I wondered at one time if  all his loudly proclaimed faith was genuine, but latter events seem to confirm its validity.

Johann Bessler attributed his success to his own determination to succeed - and more importantly, to God.  This fervent religious belief is something I have tried to understand without success.  I can't help that I'm not a believer, in fact I am an agnostic atheist. One of the  best definitions of such, is that of Robert Flint, in his Croall Lecture of 1887–1888 (published in 1903 under the title Agnosticism).

"The atheist may however be, and not unfrequently is, an agnostic. There is an agnostic atheism or atheistic agnosticism, and the combination of atheism with agnosticism which may be so named is not an uncommon one.

If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist – an agnostic-atheist – an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other.."

So when Bessler awoke from his strangely invigorating dream which gave him the confidence to carry on to success, he attributed it to God.  He would never have considered that it might have been intuition. Intuition may be defined as "understanding or knowing without conscious recourse to thought, observation or reason. Some see this unmediated process as somehow mystical while others describe intuition as being a response to unconscious cues or implicitly apprehended prior learning."  Dr. Jason Gallate & Ms Shannan Keen BA.

Many, if not all of us, have experienced that moment of revelation in the night or upon waking which seems to provide a light at the end of the tunnel, something which might lead to success or at least progress.  This revelation is, in my opinion, the result of "understanding or knowing without conscious recourse to thought, observation or reason", or to put it another way, the subconscious has continued to worry at the problem and supplied its solution upon waking.  Dreams are often recalled upon waking and yet vanish in the light of a later dawn.  Our subconscious is closer to our waking minds at that moment of transition, when we finally awaken or if we surface momentarily during the night and it is then we can connect, however briefly, with it.

I have no wish to impugn other people's religious convictions, and I have sought to understand them over the years, but in the end one's beliefs are a matter of personal conviction which does not require explanation to anyone else.  To me there is an odd dichotomy between religion and science.  Many top scientists as well as the vast majority of the world's population follow a religion.  But how is it that on the one hand those experts teach us that Bessler's wheel was impossible, because of their rational, objective, non-magical view of the world - and yet on the other hand they state with absolute authority and sincerity their utter belief in the existence of God with no evidence whatsoever other than their subjective experience. Surely two such differing views must be mutually exclusive? How can rational scientists state unequivocally that Bessler's wheel was impossible then go to church on Sunday and 'pray' or talk to a being whose very existence is unknowable.

I read that Science is natural and that:-
  • It explains the existence & order of the universe & human consciousness.
  • It is rational, fact-based, objective & non-dogmatic.
  • It is antithetical to sectarianism, dogmatism, intolerance & violence.
  • It does not indulge in magical thinking.
  • It deals with human reality, which is the material world.
  • It is progressive, evolving as we evolve.
  • It is self-correcting, acknowledges its mistakes & moves on.
On the other hand I read that Religion is not only subjective, it’s irrational, and therefore cannot be a source of truth for the following reasons:-
  • It was invented by man.
  • It misrepresents the origins of man & cosmos and represses human intellect.
  • It is irrational, dogmatic, subjective.
  • It gives rise to sectarianism, disunity, intolerance, repression & violence.
  • It indulges in magical thinking.
  • It combines servility & solipsism.
  • It represents an anachronistic, Bronze Age philosophy.

And let's not ignore the common man, if he will forgive me for referring to him (or her) thus?  How many believe in ghosts, good luck, superstition, life after death, psychic phenomena etc, etc?  None of these things are proven and yet people would rather believe in some subjective absurdity that they have been persuaded is real than a well documented machine whose only failing was that it appeared to conflict with the laws of science as laid down by those God-fearing men of 300 years ago.

On the other side of the coin, I think there is a strong possibility that those revelations, I mentioned easrlier, that we experience in the night are sometimes proven correct and sometimes turn out to be an example of apophenia.  Remember that definition - the perception of patterns, meanings, or connections where none exists?  Is religion based on seeing patterns where none exist; seeing God's hand in places or events where a more mundane explanation which did not require such divine intervention would suffice.

JC

10a2c5d26e15f6g7h10ik12l3m6n14o14r5s17tu6v5w4y4-3,’.

55 comments:

  1. PART I:

    Very interesting blog entry, John. In fact, probably the most intelligent and thought provoking one I've seen from you since I arrived here!

    When it comes to the concept of God, I find that I can not entirely dismiss it. Afterall, I am a single human being with limited abilities and knowledge. To be able to disprove the existence of God, I would have to simultaneously have knowledge of the contents of every place in the cosmos so that I could, with 100% certainty, say that I found no God anywhere. I, obviously, can not do that. For all I know, the ENTIRE cosmos could be conscious of every aspect of its own structure and actively working "behind the scenes" to maintain the laws of physics and the welfare of those living creatures whose very existence is owed to the beneficence of an eternal Creator. I am not offended in any way by Bessler's religiosity and I'm sure it brought him much comfort during his turbulent life.

    Personally, I HOPE that there is a just, merciful, loving God in ANY form out there "somewhere" who makes sure that the truly "good" people are rewarded while the truly "evil" ones are punished...either in this life or some possible afterlife existence. But, I have MANY questions for this God, if I ever meet Him and am allowed to discuss matters with Him. Questions such as where was He while, say, the Holocaust was going on and, perhaps, over a million children were murdered? Why did He not intervene and make every murdering Nazi keel over with a heart attack or stroke immediately after he had acted to murder some defenseless and innocent person while immediately bringing the murdered person back to life? IF that had happened, then after the first few hundred or thousand Nazis had dropped dead, they certainly would have gotten the message that they'd better STOP immediately! They probably would have quickly asassinated Hitler and then surrendered to the Allies and tens of MILLIONS of lives might have been spared. These are disturbing questions about God that I can not push out of my mind and I find it difficult to accept the rationalization of the religious people I know that He just did nothing because that served some "greater" good and that right now the perpetrators are burning in Hell while the victims are blissfully happy in Heaven.

    As far as manmade religions go, I have ZERO faith in ANY of them. Ultimately, they are really just BUSINESSES whose purpose is to provide for the comfortable existence of an elite priesthood. The commodity they "sell" for their income is a pre-packaged belief system that, admittedly, many people still need and find comforting...so long as they follow the particular religion's "rules", that is. Well, IF some people need it, then they should have it. I believe in freedom of religion and, most importantly, freedom FROM religion. However, citizens and their governments must NEVER again allow themselves to be dominated by religions. Believing and practicing any religion should be ENTIRELY optional.

    ReplyDelete
  2. PART II:

    I do believe 100% that there is GREAT power in the human UNconscious mind. We all, literally, have a VERY powerful computer built into our skulls which is constantly monitoring everything we do, see, and say as well as what others do and say. That data is stored and then continuously processed to find patterns in it and even disruptions in the normal patterns in our environments.

    All one has to do to use his or her mental computer is to believe it's there and TELL it you want it to solve some problem for you. It WILL listen and, if it finds a solution, it will let you know. Like Bessler, you'll have an "invigorating" dream or you may just be suddenly struck by an "insight" into how to solve your problem when you least expect it. When this happens, it does not mean that you are psychic or anything like that. It's just your personal computer at work and delivering the results YOU commanded it to obtain.

    At the end of the last blog entry's comments I reported that my latest "right track" design had failed to pass its "Moment of Truth" test which would have signaled that I had finally found the SAME design that Bessler had found and used. I am not really worried about my failures along the way to success and that one, sadly, probably won't be my last!

    However, after each failure, I find that have an intense desire to try to find out what went wrong. That, of course, is just my unconscious mind hungry to acquire fresh data so it can get to work on trying to find a new approach to present to my conscious mind. I let it do its thing and, in EVERY case, it comes up with something in a few days that NEVER previously occurred to me. I trust it will do the same this time as well.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Johann Bessler could see the invisible .

    ReplyDelete
  4. John, I believe there certainly is a God and the only way into heaven,for those above the age of accountability, is to accept Jesus as your lord and saviour. I also believe God gave Bessler the answer and the next man that discovers the secret will be because God choose him. One challenge for you John....Prove there is no God. TG, God has given us free will. To all, please try to comprehend the length of our short lives vs. eternity. Thanks, Justsomeone

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "TG, God has given us free will."

      There's a whole branch of philosophy known as "determinism" that claims we only have the ILLUSION of "free will". It postulates that ALL of our thoughts and "voluntary" actions are merely effects produced in response to environmental causes "outside" of our minds. It is only the generally complex nature of these many simultaneously acting external causes that influence our thoughts and actions which deceives us into believing that we actually do have free choice. In other words, we are all somewhat like trains that must travel down a tracks that COMPLETELY determine our directions in life, but we are usually unaware of the tracks. This is rather frightening to contemplate and I am very GLAD to have the illusion of free will, if that is what it is!

      I think religions are always trying to use the concept of "free will" for their own benefit. Such a concept can make a lot of people feel really guilty for merely being human and, once so "contaminated" by the "sins" they've supposedly committed, they must be ritually cleansed via various rituals before they can feel entitled to feel good about themselves again and, of course, continue to receive the favor of the god(s) again. Usually, that cleansing has a price attached to it which is tends to be a financial one.

      I always tell people to BEWARE of ANYONE who tries to tell them that they are "not right" with God or who tries to tell them what will happen to them AFTER they die. Those people, basically, do NOT know what they are talking about, but are usually only parroting what others, similarly misguided, have told them.

      Delete
  5. TG, It actually don't matter what I think or say, just what the Bible says!!! If I ever say something that contradicts the Bible, believe what the Bible says. The Bible says one unforgiven sin will keep us out of heaven. TG, you are a man of many, many, many words but you won't talk your way into heaven!!! God gave us his son to die for our sins. Accept this gift from God or go to hell. Personally I would rather you spend eternity with God. It might ( I repeat might) give me enough time to read your long posts. ;) Justsomeone

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. All I can say about the Judeo Christian Bible is that I put it into the same catagory with works such as Aesop's Fables, Tales of 1001 Arabian Nights, and the Grimm Brothers' Fairy Tales.

      The Bible is, basically, a book of various stories that blend history with fiction to present the reader with moral lessons. The lessons one gets from this "holy" book have a central theme which is that if one obeys God, then really "good" things will happen to him (or her) and if he does NOT obey God, really "bad" things will happen to him (or her). Of course, God rarely speaks directly to the average person, but, rather, only does so THROUGH a priesthood of some sort. Therefore, the real message that the reader of the Biblical stories eventually gets is that he (or she) is supposed to conduct their lives the way a particular "Christian" religion's priesthood says he (or she) should since, of course, that priesthood, being so "holy", knows what they are talking about.

      DON'T believe them, folks!

      IF there is a God, then it is He, She (!), or It that will decide what happens to you WHILE you live and AFTER you die. NO human being, no priest, no Pope, no "Saint", nor ANYBODY else will be making that decision. You do NOT have to study any ancient texts, mortify your flesh, run to a temple once a week to drink the blood of a 2,000 year old god, or any other sort of ridculous ritual. God, if He, She, or It exists will know whether your REAL intentions are "good" or "evil" and will take care of the rest. All you have to do is concentrate on trying to be the best person you can be.

      What is that you might ask? Simple. Try to as fair, kind, and generous as you are able and don't do it just because you are trying to "lay up treasures in Heaven"; that is, doing it as an "investment" in a richer afterlife! Give thanks for EVERY day of life you have because you NEVER know which one will be your last as a LIVING being. Yes, there MIGHT be an afterlife. But, then again, maybe there is NOT! I certainly hope there is (especially as I get older!), but if there isn't, then it means that when THIS life is over for me, then it is COMPLETELY OVER and will be followed by an ETERNITY of OBLIVION or NOTHINGNESS! Life is VERY precious...don't WASTE it if you can avoid doing so.

      Delete
  6. Boy oh boy, it's just one can of worms after another around here!

    :D

    ReplyDelete
  7. Yes guys,..God says,"No man cometh to me except through the Son of God".

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. With all due respect, can you please point us to the Bible reference (book:chapter:verse) for the quote given?
      Thank you.

      Delete
    2. @ Anonymous

      Trevor is misquoting John 14:6 which says:

      "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

      The priesthoods of various Christian denominations out there really love this verse. It immediately tells people that they will ONLY get to Heaven IF they believe in Jesus or, to be more precise, WHAT a particular domination's priesthood believes about Jesus. It is often used to denigrate the validity of OTHER non-Christian religions and to fill a particular Christian denomination's congregation with fear that they had better not "stray from", doubt, or question the validity of their particular priesthood's interpretations about Jesus' moral teachings (all of which tend to be ambiguous to a certain degree allowing for PLENTY of differing opinions as to their exact meaning!).

      To put this all into perspective, folks. ALL Christian denominations are, basically, the same and EQUALLY IRRELEVANT. NONE will get you into Heaven any more than will, say, believing in and practicing the rituals of ancient Greek mythology!

      Delete
  8. John ,
    I have decided to reply to this subject here http://cwonjohannbessler.blogspot.com/2012/11/what-does-god-have-to-do-with-pm.html

    ReplyDelete
  9. Furthermore John,..I don't think at your age you should be trifelling with your future in eternity.
    Think about this,..If I am right,I have nothing to loose, but if you are wrong,you have everything to loose.
    No offense meant.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. None taken Trevor and your concern is appreciated.

      JC

      Delete
  10. I am Catholic,and to be honest' i don't give a shit about religion.
    Not long ago i was on a visit in one house,and in the entry i saw a writings on the wall.
    Yesterday it's a History
    Tomorrow it's a Mystery
    Today it's a Gift.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Correction!
    Yesterday is a History
    Tomorrow is a Mystery
    Today is a Gift

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Amen. Let us enjoy our "gift" finally free of irrational theological indoctrination!

      Delete
  12. Maybe Johann Bessler remembered it in the dream , from a past life !

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He might have thought it came from god but it really came from his own memory .
      The Bessler wheel could have existed before in some long forgotten civilisation .

      Delete
    2. "The Bessler wheel could have existed before in some long forgotten civilisation."

      I have to agree, simply because there is still evidence today of such a civilisation. Three examples:—

      - The very high-precision finish of the Great Pyramid's casing stones. Remember that the whole pyramid was once covered in these.

      - The large amounts of precision-fit stonework in South America and elsewhere.

      -The Portolan maps that started to appear in the late 13th century showing not only vast improvements in accuracy, but also such things as the correct ice-free contours of Antarctica, etc.

      That last example suggests that, just possibly, Bessler could have found some ancient documentary evidence that helped him invent his wheel.

      Delete
    3. @ Arktos

      I find it hard to believe that Bessler might NOT have invented his OWN OB PM gravity wheel. I, however, if successful in finding HIS design, will NOT be inventing my own wheel because I DO have a document that is helping me: the two DT portraits!

      Delete
  13. BA here.

    @ John Collins and ALL


    I will attack you with Bessler's duality statements thought the guise of your topic header. But first I must try to save you, not your soul or anything like that, but save you form the flawed logic humans use to convince themselves in what ever they belief in. There are three basic rules i live by, one is from my great-grand father, one is from my grand father and the other is my observations.

    They go like this: 1) "Sense make before Book" meaning common sense was around long before books was. 2) You must have patience in everything you do. 3) "Humans are stupid".

    If you have not noticed by now atheism is a religion, I am truly sorry for you, you have a belief system ( or a non-belief system), you have books that teach you of your belief system, you have high priests (or highly knowledgeable persons in the subject matter) which defend the order. And of late, you have gatherings of parents to defend the young form the dogma of others. But I am happy that there are atheist because they have helped me correct some of the flaws of my own religious beliefs.

    Now back to Bessler, You can say Bessler writes in poetic script, but really he writes in biblical script. But first you must understand what biblical script is, it is not the word of GOD, there is no such thing, God like any parent tells stories, in the hope, their children with understand it and will live a good life. Biblical script is just a form of writing that is made to withstand the effects of 'translations'.
    One must pay attention to the story, not the words so much. The central theme that I find in Bessler's writings is one of duality or balance in the subject matter. Bessler searched for a long time for Perpetual Motion, and he found it only when he balanced himself with his science and religion. It is this balance he attributes to God, he was a very knowledgeable person, so he had to get very religious to make himself balance. But as 'tehnoguy' points out , by example, is that one can become highly irrational when it comes to the subject matter of religion.But as he also points out, absolutes in any subject matter is never a good thing. Everyone dislikes vanity, except the vain, so Bessler cannot thank himself, so he thanks God. because God is the other person in the equation.
    Because of the three rules I stated above, I have found a design that is so mind numbingly simple, yet the math works out to give extra energy. But everyone today wants physical proof, so I must prove myself with a build. If successful, I will attribute it to God, because I took Bessler's lead and ask God for help and I was helped.


    Bye for now
    BA.

    ReplyDelete
  14. The way it is is that you are your own god . Everyone is their own god .

    ReplyDelete
  15. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  16. [Part The First]

    Talk about a lightening rod for creating controversy!

    What you "read", John, resulting in those lists pro and con, reads to ME like Atheists Inc. talking points!

    The Atheist Faith* is one God-damned dangerous thing, smiles or not!

    (Question: "Gees! WHAT has gotten into kindly James?" Answer: "No more patience with the false offerings of Humanism and Naturalism, is what!" For expositions as to why SUCH objections, look at what now forms AROUND YOU in real time! Do you like it? What you see is sold by such as those two last listed. Do you think their self-worshiping plans will end IN GLORY???)

    Under any circumstances it is NOT to be abided nor abetted nor tolerated, even IF coming from outwardly 'nice guys'! (How do you like THOSE nuts for "intolerance", as you have listed, John??? You BET intolerant!!!)

    When last such monsters - organized Red Atheism - seized-hold of unbridled state power, the greatest mass murder of Christian souls soon thereafter took place!

    Of course I speak of the recent Bolshevik Russian experience, but now morphed back-to

    "Mother Russia and the Holy Russian Orthodox Church are again ONE!"

    It is estimated, according to materials contemporaneous to the time as were published by agents of the vile, filthy regime itself in the various countries where so-done, that between 50 and 60 MILLIONS were butchered! These were mostly Christians, some few Moslems and practically none of that tiniest minority which mostly comprised that brute-evil, state atheist leadership itself! (READ of the names before Revolutionary re-birth, after which becoming equipped with NEW ONES, all for the disguising! Who is now fooled?)

    (And, as should be added to the pretty picture, the Imperial Family was shot and hacked to pieces by stinking, God-hating, evil-lead peasants!)

    Charming!

    Yes, I suppose one might say rightly "Christian Holocaust"! Why the Hell not? (This last is of course rhetorical, as the more wise if not too discrete DO KNOW!)

    (Of course, cognizance of this reality has been made intensely 'politically incorrect' these days, as anyone still sane is well aware, but, nevertheless it was so and shall remain until every single printed item of that historic record is expunged "1984" style. Believe it! They are working for such a happy, wished-for confluence! At it, will they succeed?)

    No, I am not much of a friend of militancy where non-believing OR believing systems are concerned, but particularly this IS so because of the sheer, demonstrated SUPREME EVIL of Red empowered Atheism, this being THE WORST OF THE WORST, absolutely ever!

    (For one's mind profit, it might born there that the various Inquisitions of the Church of Rome ended by numbers of centuries ago, whereas the Communist mega-horror was way less than just a hundred years past! Very recent. The temporal power of the RCC virtually is-no-more; the ecclesiastical being in near-tatters. Also - the Russians have learned their lesson well and will NOT repeat that former mistake!)

    [Continuing Next]





    ReplyDelete
  17. [Part The Second]

    All that now having been necessarily said, for science, fortunately, there is a new brand of scientist in-the-offing: http://www.cosmicveil.com/

    If curious I would try first his "The Importance of Physics to the Spiritual and Supernatural," and then "Super Geometry."

    I've heard this chap interviewed several of times and have always come away impressed. He is not only informative as to his subject, but also is entertaining.

    A large part of his position (model) is that the Naturalists' time-of-end is grows near, panic is to be soon setting-in and, that they will NOT find their precious Graviton, nor their Dark Matter nor the Higgs Boson, even. This being because they do not exist for any finding.

    The Big Collider people say they have "found" the Higgs and are only ".004%" UNcertain!

    As the well known commercial of those fellows in their back yard barbecuing away makes rather clear: ". . . then, you DON'T know!" - silence following from the would-be contender 'for', but for fractions of his uncertainty still.

    (Ahem! The seekers-after the perpetual mobile mistake THEIR ".004%" closeness for being actually close, but actually it is The Grand Canyon's LENGTH that they have yet to go! Naughty, continuing circumstance will continue to prove me right on this one - best believe it!)

    Back on track now: Mr. Fusco throws down the gauntlet with rather convincing surety, or, does for my money at least.

    Here is an available sound interview compliments of YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHcm5vsKjm4

    The lady interviewer is not much conversant with physics subjects but, is highly intelligent and so does very well nevertheless. (If I were so ill-informed on such specialist's subject, I could not do as well as she. I say 'KUDOS' to her!)

    Mr. Fusco is in hot demand on internet radio because so evoking of new thoughts as well as being brilliant.

    No, some love the possibility of the existence of the miraculous and unknowable, whereas others loath or actually fear it! Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

    Soon enough we'll ALL have the absolutely perfect, finished answer. HOW I look forward to it.

    CHEERS and,

    Ta-ta!

    James

    ReplyDelete
  18. I have no delusions about the people associated with the atheism you refer to, James, but I used it simply as a label to describe my own views acquired over my lifetime. The extremists of all religions are to be abhorred and the philosophies and ethical perspectives provided by the majority of religions is to be welcomed and adopted as a guide to a rewarding life.

    I visited the links you provided, but was unable to hear the interview in one of them - youtube appears to have posted a silent radio interview! I turned to a publication of the first chapter of Mr. Fusco's book and was firstly alarmed at the acknowledgement of Thelma Moss's assistance, as she and I have come to verbal blows with each other, in the past - and secondly Mr. Fusco's admission that he learned of the paranormal accounts he became so involved in, from Frank Edward's books!

    You will doubtless be aware of the various stories published by Edwards and my opinion of his reliability as a historian, and the accounts I have read about the work done by Mr. Fusco has the same ring of historical license as his.

    I do not know enough about Fusco to form a proper opinion about his work and I have no wish to denigrate his efforts without suffient evidence, so I shall do some more research into his ideas before trying to come to a valid assessment of his ideas. Thank you, James.

    JC

    ReplyDelete
  19. Very, very interesting post, John, and also quite a number of very interesting replies. In many ways I am with TG on this -I thought his ways a very honest and impressive analysis of his own views- but all of this sure is a can of worms, or, as it always has been aptly stated "a lightning rod". One thing of quite certain: people will never agree on religion.

    Personally, I don't believe in organization religions, for much the same reasons as TG eloquently stated. But I do believe, in my own peculiar way. My background is computer science, electronics, mostly technology in short (with an emphasis on AI and Parallel Processing). Not necessarily "compatible" or conducive with esoteric intangibles such as some Higher Being.

    Still, when I look closely at a simple fly -thoughtlessly squashed by the millions every day- or any other "simple bug" I am awestruck by the incredible complexity and genius of the design. Using our best technology and designs we cannot even approximate the most basic functions of it. It's pure genius.

    I have a hard time accepting that's mere "coincidence" and evolution. Surely evolution is involved, but to me there has to be a Designer-in-Chief somewhere who initiated it all. Just as the Big Bang to me doesn't explain the beginning of the Universe as we know it (what was there before the Big Bang, then?) so I cannot accept all this has come from nothing.

    It my very well turn out that all of us are "little pieces of the puzzle" ourselves. Maybe our collective consciousness constitutes that what we call "God", i.e. we all together (perhaps even with many other sentient civilizations and beings in the Universe) are little sparks - and all that together is what we call "God".

    I don't know. I cannot prove any of it. Equally, I cannot disprove any of it. But somewhere, deep inside, I just feel there has to be something. Somewhere. And that nature of it, by its very existence, is "good".

    ReplyDelete
  20. I apologize for the myriad of typos. I was in a hurry. Time (another one of those flawed human inventions?) was short :-)

    ReplyDelete
  21. When I first saw the new topic for debate, I thought, Oh no! JC has really opened a can of worms this time. He’s broken one of the golden rules for a happy (Blogg) conversation; don’t mention politics or religion (I see from the above replies that when religion was mentioned many of us thought of worms!)

    That said it is not possible to seriously look at Bessler and his clues and not take into account his fervent religious belief. I have always taken this very seriously in my Bessler clue work. As someone who has had a life-long interest in religion I didn't have a problem with this, in fact I rather enjoyed it!

    I think that for a more complete picture of Bessler’s ‘religion’ it needs to be recognised that as a devout Christian, he was not just a Bible reader and Church attendee, he clearly had knowledge of other esoteric disciplines; his work is littered with references to them.

    There is so much I could write on this subject, but I am not TG! Plus yesterday 80mph winds blew the roof off my workshop, so I have other things to do today.

    For now I’ll leave you with this to think about: I believe the reason Bessler got so annoyed when Wagner accused him of being a member of The Order of Orpheus was because he wasn't the member of any damned Club! He had his own private connection to Orpheus through Bessler/Orffyre and was also aware of the mythical/legendary nature of his achievement. He like Orpheus had the ability to make inanimate objects move, and also like Orpheus had his moment of doubt and looked back, just as he had nearly brought his wife/ his wheel back from the underworld, he saw it fall back into the abyss, (as we now know for another 300 years!)

    I have covered themes and issues regarding Bessler’s religious/spiritual/esoteric beliefs as I see them in my poem For The Love of Eurydice, here’s the link: http://factumpoetica.org/for-the-love-of-eurydice/

    JW

    ReplyDelete
  22. God is light and love. God is.
    "I am that I am".
    God is in everything, God is everything.
    Everything comes from God, even our intuition.
    Everything returns to God.
    Even everything that isn't "good" in our judgement, including our evil brothers and sisters,
    and our sometimes flawed spiritual concepts.

    God was before time and space.

    It makes sense if you think about it, but it is difficult to contemplate, as it should be.
    Doug

    ReplyDelete
  23. Thanks for the supportive comments, Andre, concerning my "common sense" approach to religions in general.

    I've found that most "religious" people are so "into" their own clergy's particular interpretations of some "holy" book's "teachings" that they completely lose sight of the fact that, so far, their have been THOUSANDS of religions and DOZENS of "holy" books on planet Earth and they ALL disagree with each other while their various members are 100% convinced that ONLY they have the "truth" and that everyone ELSE who is an "outsider" (also known as a "back slider", "heretic", "pagan", "infidel", etc.) is going straight to Hell when they die!

    Any reasonable person would immediately wonder why, IF there was ONE God who actually wanted to make his presence and intentions known to humanity, He, She, or It would have been involved in creating such a pathetic cacophony of belief systems over the millenia?! A multitude of differing belief systems which some historians credit with being a major CAUSE of warfare down through history that has resulted in HUNDREDS of millions of people being murdered in total!

    So, in light of this, I continue to steadfastly maintain my belief that ALL of Earth's religions, whether they were started thousands of years ago or yesterday, are SOLELY the products of either wishful thinking, delusion, mental illness, or fraud or some combination of all of these and are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS in terms of attaining any sort of personal "salvation" which means giving one immortality either on Earth or in Heaven.

    IF God TRULY wanted to make His presence and purpose known to the ENTIRE world, He, She, or It would NOT be resorting to a bizarre zoo-like collection of prophets, messiahs, or "holy" men to do so. He, She, or It could simple simultaneously materialize in some non-threatening form in front of everyone on Earth and identify Him, Her, or Itself as GOD and then tell everyone what they should do in order to obtain favor and, through it, somehow overcome illness, old age, and death and live happily ever after. Failure to do what was required would NOT lead to eternal punishment in some hell, but, rather, simply to the person NOT receiving the promised "gifts". I suspect that 99.9999+% of the human race would IMMEDIATELY acknowledge the existence of this God and start doing what He, She, or It wanted him to! When the gifts started to be delivered, we would all then KNOW that God existed and EXACTLY what we had to do to obtain SPECIFIC results. There would only be ONE God and ONE religion on Earth and that would immediately put an end to the bloodshed due to religious differences amongst peoples.

    My advice to EVERYONE is to do the best you can to be a kind, fair, and generous person. But, realize at all times that, being human, you have your limits and, on those occasions when you must say "no" because saying "yes" might jeopardize your OWN mental and/or physical survival or those of your loved ones, do not beat yourself up for it whenever you fail to live up to the moral standards of some other HUMAN being dressed up in a funny costume who is carrying a "holy" book around under his arm. He is ONLY another human JUST like you and his funny costume and "holy" book do NOT in ANY way give him the right to sit in judgement of you!

    ReplyDelete
  24. Sorry to detour a bit from this blog entry's topic of religion, but something happened this morning that I feel needs to be documented.

    I had been patiently waiting for "revelation", courtesy of that UNconscious mental computer I mentioned in my first comment to this blog entry, to strike me following my most previous failed attempt to get my current "right track" wheel design working, and, AS EXPECTED, "illumination" occurred this morning upon awakening from a night filled with vivid, lucid type dreaming.

    As I lay there in my bed in a semi-conscious state, I suddenly "saw" the 1st DT portrait literally floating before me eyes. I noticed that the VASE in the lower left corner of the portrait seemed to be demanding my attention and I studied it intently. Soon afterward, I was fully awake and wondering what the significance of this "vision" might have been.

    Then it hit me! As many may recall from an analysis I did of the 1st portait symbols over a month or so ago, the items on the table in front of Bessler actually represent various weighted levers within one of his one-directional wheels. Specifically, the book represents the 10:30 position weighted lever which is being lifted by several other weighed levers, HIS left hand represents the 9:00 position weighted lever, HIS right hand represents the 1:30 position weighted lever, and the skull represents the 3:00 position weighted lever.

    The tilted vase, however, represents the 7:30 position weighted lever and, although minor, it DOES play a role in supporting the book or 10:30 postion weighted lever. This means that there MUST be an interconnecting cord that travels directly from the 7:30 position weighted lever to the 10:30 position weighted lever which plays a role in lifting it into that position AND helping to stablize it when it finally reaches that position.

    I then realized that NONE of the recent modifications of my current "right track" wheel design include such a 7:30 to 10:30 weighted lever interconnecting cord! I further realized that this omission was, most likely, the reason ALL of these modifcations FAILED to pass their final M of T testing that would have verified that they worked to maintain the OB of the CoM of the wheel's 8 weights and, consequently were THE design that Bessler had found and used!

    Well, now that I have received this "illumination", I shall be incorporating the extra cord into my future modifications. When your unconscious mental computer delivers some results to your conscious mind, NEVER fail to act on them!

    Things are DEFINITELY starting to look a bit brighter now.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Excellent posts all, thank you!

    I noted the other day a scientist is suggesting that we are genetically predisposed to believe in God. Put that phrase into google and you get a blizzard of links!

    I'm not sure that there is a specific gene, but we learn not to touch things that are hot for fear of injury; it is a short step to recognise danger in certain circumstances and when the danger does not materialise we may see that as protection from the danger by some unknown force - God?.

    My personal feeling is that God may live in our subconscious, but what do I know?

    JC

    ReplyDelete
  26. A safe bet ?
    There are a lot of theories and conjecture surrounding Bessler and his device . Some have gone so far as to add or subtract their own " facts " to/from the story . You will hear most loudly of all the skeptic who believes by statistics alone ( a safe bet ) that the answer to this most perplexing riddle will never be found and accordingly goes on and on saying how far we are from the answer . The same type of animal existed in duplicity when Bessler was alive . There are lots of answers for any given question but the question must be particular in this case . It is not likely that energy or motion can be sustained within a structure no matter how it is designed . Bessler tried many approaches to the problem and came to naught 100% of the time ... up until so he tells us ," they ( he also ) sought it ( the P.M. principle ) in things they ( he ) were ( was ) already familiar with . "

    ReplyDelete
  27. John please forgive me ... I cannot help myself . I was responding to this :
    Primemignonite23 November 2012 02:16
    (Ahem! The seekers-after the perpetual mobile mistake THEIR ".004%" closeness for being actually close, but actually it is The Grand Canyon's LENGTH that they have yet to go! Naughty, continuing circumstance will continue to prove me right on this one - best believe it!)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually, I'd be blissfully happy to be only 0.004% away from THE solution or 99.996% of the way to the end of the "right track". But, I do feel that I am currently at least 99.900% of the way there.

      As with all things, time will tell whether or not I was just suffering from "apophenia" or not. This also applies to EVERYONE else here!

      Delete
  28. It's just that I have said I wouldn't post anymore . Believing myself so close to the realization of the device I hate to hear the run-of-the-mill things that people continue to say concerning our sought P.M. principle . In my view if anyone had devised what Bessler devised the air would then become clear to them ... and the proverbial pin would be heard dropping over the echoes of shouts from the skeptics . All I require is time . I have set myself up to succeed . Forgive me my premature elation and my argumentative authoritative posture .

    ReplyDelete
  29. John, by your response to what I wrote I am today elevated.

    It seems you truly are a dispassionate, as regards our present God (or "god"?) subject.

    Quoth J.C. - "I have no delusions about the people associated with the atheism you refer to, James, but I used it simply as a label to describe my own views acquired over my lifetime. . . ."

    Excellent! How nicely put. Just as it should be, in James' not-so-humble opinion. In this regard, this then makes TWO of us!

    Quoth J.C. - ". . . The extremists of all religions are to be abhorred and the philosophies and ethical perspectives provided by the majority of religions is to be welcomed and adopted as a guide to a rewarding life."

    And affirming of the same still-further, and also - AGREED!

    [We do beseech Ye, blissful Concordance: DO be Ours!]

    I am sorry you could not access the interview. It really is informative. I think the program downloaded by YouTube has a volume slider on it. Maybe it was turned down, or, yours was (or the "Mute" pushed) on your computer's sound program? (THIS digital madness; at once a miracle AND a devil, all in one!)

    Quoth J.C. - "You will doubtless be aware of the various stories published by Edwards and my opinion of his reliability as a historian, and the accounts I have read about the work done by Mr. Fusco has the same ring of historical license as his."

    (This time, "doubtless" failed us, John!)

    I did not catch that Edwards business within Fusco's words! ' Will have to re-visit there to see, and discern context. Interesting.

    (Apropos this general issue: As it is with all of us, some things we have to offer are right-on whereas others are not-so-hot. Even Satan himself, for having done ONE single good unselfish act, if it were actually so, would have to be allowed full, due-credit in his Ledger Of Life. All, even Communists, have some little thing of creative thinking to contribute on the true, plus side. How could it be otherwise?)

    Quoth J.C. - "I do not know enough about Fusco to form a proper opinion about his work and I have no wish to denigrate his efforts without suffient evidence, so I shall do some more research into his ideas before trying to come to a valid assessment of his ideas. Thank you, James."

    What other could I say than "yet-MORE excellence!" and, that you are most welcomed?

    And for an appropriate finish: Am I not the naughtiest thing for having spoken so pointedly (and, with all spines abristled!) earlier? On this day, some little bit of shame is surely mine at least, for which I now apologize [apologise] IN PUBLIC! (And, don't dare do likewise ever again, James, or there may be some "H" to be paid taken from your hide!!! So sayeth pianississimo, does the inner little voce!)

    As ever,

    CHEERS and Ciao!

    James

    ReplyDelete
  30. The companion of fools shall both go down to destruction but the righteous who trust in the Lord shall live forever.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Proverbs has a saying for every occasion, Trevor. I found dozens of examples to respond - too many to choose from. You may see me as a fool for having my opinion, and Proverbs has a saying for that too, ' A fool has no delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own opinion', but I put that back to you.

    JC

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It was not meant for you John,I'm just amazed by the number of people who would give you advice using man's corrupt wisdom.

      Delete
  32. Furthermore if I quote from truth,it is God's ordained law,not my opinion.
    Forgive me but I feel earnest because I personally have had a personal spiritual experience confirming the unmistakable existance of an all caring God.
    That is why I witness in the spirit that all man's philosophies are vain.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Trevor, you may well have had a genuine "spiritual experience" that DOES, in fact, verify the existence of God. BUT, such an event, even if genuine, does NOT necessarily verify the reality of ANY of our planet's MANmade religions.

      I shall continue to "witness in the spirit" that ALL of man's RELIGIONS are vain!

      Delete
  33. The self could be in higher dimensional realms while being in lower dimensional realms simultaneously , in lower dimensional realms the self would know less and have less understanding than the self in higher dimensional realms , the self in a higher dimensional realm could communicate to the self in a lower dimensional realm , such as this three dimensional space time continuum .
    Johann Bessler could have given the information to himself from a higher dimensional realm via the strange dream he had .
    I do not believe that their is one all powerful god , i think everyone is a god .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I understand Trevor, and apologies for thinking you were targeting me. As I said earlier, in the end one's beliefs are a matter of personal conviction which does not require explanation to anyone else.

      JC

      Delete
    2. JC wrote: : "...in the end one's beliefs are a matter of personal conviction which does not require explanation to anyone else."

      I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head with this statement, John.

      I've found that people tend to believe concepts that agree with the particular logic they are trained to use and which fulfill some emotional needs they have. All manmade religions try to tap into this reality by subtly shaping the logic their adherents use and making them believe that the religion's promises make sense and will fulfill their emotional needs. Often, logic is completely eliminated and the practitioner of the religion is simple told to pray for the "gift" of faith which means accepting things that can NEVER logically make sense and therefore seem ridiculous without having any proof or evidence whatsoever to verify their validity. One is told that the more faithful he is, the "holier" he is and the more pleasing he is to God.

      The problem with faith is that it makes a virtue out of NOT thinking, NOT reasoning, and NOT asking questions! One is expected to agree that God made all life including humanity, installed an exquisitely complex computer made out of jelly inside our skulls, and THEN wants us NOT to use it!

      The REALITY is that the priesthoods of Earth's various religions do NOT want their followers to start using their minds because, if they did, they would very quickly realize what a sham their religion was and what its REAL purpose was: to provide a comfortable lifestyle for an elite group of priests who actually feel morally superior to their "flock" who have to work for a living to support them! But, they justify this BUSINESS by "reasoning" that, since they, the priests, are "holier" than the followers and, therefore, closer to and loved more by God, it is their natural RIGHT in the order of things to have the masses pay their bills for them!

      Delete
  34. I agree largely with what you say TG, but unfortunately I'm putting up a new blog on another subject.

    JC

    ReplyDelete
  35. Am I the only one here who has noticed how very much like a religion is our pursuit of Bessler's design for a working OB PM gravity wheel design?

    First, we have Bessler who is sort of our equivalent of a messiah like Jesus. Jesus credits his miracles to God in Heaven and so does Bessler credit his discovery of a working PM wheel to God in Heaven! Jesus alledgedly raises the dead to life again and is even raised himself to eternal life. Bessler manages to bring "dead" matter to life by using a secret mechanism that bestows perpetual motion to lead weights mounted on levers inside of a hollow drum.

    Christians have the Holy Bible to study and quote from. We have the translated works of Bessler to study and quote from. The multitude of Christian denominations (about 2,500 the last time I checked!) are the result of unresolved differences of opinion about the meaning of various Bible verses. Here, on this blog, we also are sharply divided as to the proper interpretations to give to various quotes of Bessler.

    The followers of Jesus seek to follow his teachings and emulate his behavior in the hope of obtaining "salvation" or an escape from death to eternal life. We study Bessler with the hope of producing a working wheel whose motion will never die!

    Christianity has its priests and Popes who try to promote the religion. We have people like JC whose websites promote interest in Bessler and his inventions.

    Christians form a group known as a "church" or "congregation" to get together to support each others' interest in the religion. Our congregation is this blog where we get together to share opinions and support each others' efforts to achieve PM.

    Religious congregations often "disfellow" or "excommunicate" those that do not accept the priesthood's version of a religion. Here, we tend to dump on "no track" skeptics who even suggest that Bessler was a fraud and his wheels hoaxes.

    Hmmm...maybe the study of Bessler and his wheels actually serves as a SUBSTITUTE for the religions of this world which to most of us are logically unacceptable?! That then makes me wonder how many OTHER things are out there that people are using as a substitute for membership in a religous group?

    ReplyDelete
  36. Actually it has occurred to me too, that we are a kind of disciple, TG. But my faith lies only in the thought that he was not a fake - and even in that there is a shadow of doubt as to whether it was gravity-only or if there was some additional force employed. Certainly there are aspects to the subject which are reminiscent of religion, but I hope I am open-minded to anything - even to proof that he was a liar!

    JC

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I, too, am "open" to the possibility (extremely remote as it is) that Bessler was a fraud and his wheels hoaxes. But, SO FAR, I have seen ZERO evidence that would convince me of this possibility while I have seen MUCH evidence that convinces me he and his wheels were genuine.

      Yes, I know that the scientific orthodoxy has pronounced Bessler's achievements as physically IMPOSSIBLE, but one must remember that these are the same people who once confidently proclaimed that the Sun orbited around a stationary Earth, the Sun's light and heat were due to combustion, that diseases were caused by the inhalation of swamp vapors, that bleeding sick people could actually make them feel better, that the newly discovered X-rays were merely a hoax, and that heavier than air aircraft were impossible. They had even proved that bumble bees could NOT fly! I predict that we will all be quite astounded when we see how quickly they change their negative tune AFTER the secret of Bessler's OB PM gravity wheels is finally found and the first replicas start to be constructed.

      I also think that the search for PM has a lot more involved in it than just the satisfaction of finally showing it IS physically possible. There is much symbolism to the "quest" and its final goal. Maybe achieving PM is, in our unconscious minds, equated with achieving immortality or mastery over the primal forces of the universe, uniting with "the infinite" or even with God Himself! Maybe it also has something to do with achieving "godhood" or possessing some of the alledged powers of God such as the ability to imbue eternal life, represented by unending motion, into ordinarily "lifeless" matter which does not move by itself!

      I note that a working PM machine has been referred to as "The Holy Grail of Mechanics" and it is interesting that this particular description was used. The Arthurian legends also speak of a quest for a "Holy grail". It was supposed to be the cup that Jesus used at the last supper (apparently a small handleless cup hewn from a solid block of greenish agate stone) that was eventually used by Joseph of Arimathea to catch some of the drops of Jesus' blood as he hung dying on the cross.

      The knights of King Arthur's round table were obsessed with finding this cup because, by celebrating Mass with it, they hoped to achieve some sort of unity with the divine that would grant them moral perfection, immortality, and invincibility in combat...just the qualities that a gallant knight would want to have. IIRC, one of the knights finally did find the grail and did experience some sort of transformation with it.

      Currently, there is a basilica in Spain that claims that it DOES, indeed, have THE grail and I even think that the Roman Catholic Church accepts this particular relic as being genuine. I vaguely recall seeing a photo of it once when it was removed from the massive reliquery that houses it. I wonder if anybody has tested its inner surface to see if there might be any traces of blood in it. If so, then it would be interesting to see if it matched the blood type found on the Shroud of Turin, another famous relic involved with the Jesus story.

      Delete
    2. For those who might be interested in seeing THE Holy Grail that Jesus used at the Last Supper, here is a photo of it.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/images/hg_santocaliz_7.jpg

      Note that the grail is only the small cup on top of the elaborate gold base and was bolted to the top of the base to secure it in place. The banding in the cup is a pattern naturally found in agate which is a form of quartz.

      The closest thing we "Besslerites" have to a Holy Grail are the two DT portraits!

      Delete
  37. They, also found a Holy Grail:-

    the Grail was in Basilica of San Lorenzo Fuori le Mura in Rome.
    The Grail’s resting place in the Hagia Sophia.
    The Grail is in the Louvre.
    It was also found in the loft above an old shop in Rugby, and doubtless many others elsewhere.

    Take your choice.

    JC

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Take your choice."

      Okay, I'll go with the one in the photo of the Valencia, Spain grail whose link I posted. It is the ONLY one of the several you list which is considered legitimate by the Roman Catholic Church, so they must have done a LOT of research before reaching that conclusion.

      Sadly, there were many phoney religious relics that emerged in the Middle Ages after two centuries of Crusades which, ultimately, failed to remove the "holy" lands from the grip of the Muslims. I think that these fake relics were produced to make the Europeans who had financially backed the Crusades feel like they at least got something tangible for the gold they had invested.

      Right now, I only consider three of the Jesus relics to be genuine: the Holy Grail at Valencia, the Shroud of Turin, and Veronica's Veil. Everything else is a fake, IMO.

      However, although I do accept these items as genuine and proof that Jesus really existed (as opposed to some historians who doubt his very historicity!), that does NOT mean that I accept him as being who he claimed to be, as having performed ANY genuine miracles, or as having "risen" from the dead and ascended into Heaven. I remain convinced that all of these details were merely exaggerations by either Jesus or his followers that eventually worked their way into the Jesus story and, eventually, the Gospel accounts.

      I believe that Jesus was just a very religious itinerant rabbi who traveled around preaching against the hypocrisy of the entrenched priesthood of his time, dispensing health advice to the sick which occasionally did help someone recover from a serious illness, and, after being executed for interfering with the cash flow to the High Priests, died and STAYED dead just like anybody else! His body was then removed from his borrowed tomb, unbeknownst to his original 12 Apostles, and hidden in another tomb (which, indeed, I am convinced WAS found in 1980 south of Jerusalem!). The rest of the story and the "organized" religion that arose from it over the centuries are SOLELY the product of wishful thinking and, occasionally, pious fraud.

      Despite my pessimistic view of the entire matter, however, I DO still think Jesus is worthy of praise for the moral portions of the message he delivered about brotherly love, generosity, etc. This took real courage to preach because it was a message diametrically opposed to the one that the Jews of his day wanted to hear. They were mostly looking for another Kind David type who would finally eject the Roman invaders from Judea and, thereby, prove that God was with the Jewish people. That never happened and, as a result, most of the Jews rejected Jesus as the "Messiah" that they were waiting for. When that happened, it was time to "open up" this new sect of Judaism to the surrounding non-jews in order for it to spread beyond a VERY small region of the globe.

      Delete

The Real Johann Bessler Codes part one

I’ve decided to include in my blogs some of the evidence I have found and deciphered which contain  the real information Bessler intended us...