It seems as though Johann Bessler had thought long and hard about his gravity-enabled perpetual motion wheel for many years.
He mentioned the bikes and toy spinning tops his father made him when he was four and a half which gave him the greatest joy.
Later as an adult, after returning to Germany, from his journey through England and Ireland, he, “read that a thing to be prized more than a ton of gold would be the invention of a Wheel which could turn of its own accord.”
Then he “visited a monastery where I happened to notice a spit turning, and immediately fell to wondering how it could carry on doing so, seemingly all by itself. It had the power continuously to rotate, like a clock that could wind itself up.”
Later he journeyed “to Prague, and “began as early as my first night there to think of the Primum Mobile. For the vision of the roasting-spit would not leave my mind. I thought it might be possible, on mechanical principles, to devise a better machine, and shut myself up to study the matter.”
He describes his conversations about perpetual motion with the Jesuit priest in Prague and I think that was probably the beginning of his serious search for the solution. He went from there, to visiting various businesses, trying to learn about all the different trades that were practised in those times, with a view to extending his considerable knowledge about how things worked.
It is clear that he had only one objective in mind and devoted himself solely to finding the solution to his perpetual motion machine. He had learned a great deal about codes and ciphers while in Prague and like ourselves, may have considered what to do if and when he had made a working perpetual motion device. Once he had a working model he used some of the codes he had learned, to hide information in his books.
Why hide information in his books? I think one reason was to show that he had found the solution by the date of publication, in case anyone else made a similar claim subsequent to his own. Of course he would need to explain all the clues found in the books, and this might require another book, but it’s more likely he would give some lectures, being something of an actor! He records his success in acting, which was strongly promoted and encouraged by the school’s rector, Christian Weise.
A second reason which he hinted at, was that it would provide a means to obtain acknowledgement and respect after he died. But the codes are so abstruse that it is hard to believe he thought anyone would solve them without additional help. This of course was the plan and no one was meant to solve it during his lifetime. But I don’t think he seriously believed that he wouldn’t sell his machine for the large sum of money he sought. His publications were dated 1715 and 1716, so he was ensuring his priority through the books, and the implied post-mortem recognition, was simply playing to the audience.
JC
Now I know where Johann got his inspiration from his father he was a man before his time he invented the bike
ReplyDeleteSorry Stephen, ‘rad’ is frequently translated as bike, but he means ‘wheel’.
DeleteJC
@SG
DeleteI found this online: "According to Bicycle History and History.com, the cycle was first invented by a German named Baron Karl von Drais in 1817. Without pedals and chain, the rider had to run to gather speed and then raise the legs to continue cruising until the momentum was lost."
Sounds like a two wheel scooter with a seat mounted between the wheels. Decades later someone got the idea to add pedals to the front wheel and then later a chain drive from pedals to the rear wheel.
Here's a painting that was done of someone using one of the baron's bicycles about 200 years ago. It was called the "laufmaschine" or "running machine". I wonder what the German word for "nutcracker" is! Lol!
Deletehttps://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.3112346!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/image.jpg
Mornin John .. I think it worth noting that B. discovered his PM Principle and his solution to a true mechanical PM machine at the age of 32, after 10 years working at it. Compared to some of us that seems a short gestation period. Whilst learning these practical skills he also learned more esoteric skills that may or may not have influenced his search for his practical solution to PM. The jury's out until it can be confirmed.
ReplyDeleteI have little doubt that he included some codes and ciphers in his works. One reason, as you say, to potentially encode his solution and protect his provenance. Personally I think he may have used some symbolism and codes to identify parts of his solution in his works, but not the whole. That would be difficult to arrange and execute, and risk someone deciphering it out and releasing his secret. I think codes etc would have greatest relevance as a marketing tool, to increase the mystique and interest in certain sectors of his society, which he might not reach to the same degree otherwise. And downstream increase the chances of a healthy sale.
The second reason, as I see it, to dilute the efforts of anyone finding his secrets who had latterly come across him (others were working on their own, much as today).
Today, thanks to B., we have two challenges in front of us. Find a PM Principle and mechanical solution to a PM machine (wheel), and simultaneously decipher his embedded codes in the belief that that will aid us with the first task. There are only so many hours in the day and days in the year. And our efforts are diluted as we are pulled between pillar and post trying to unravel both mysteries at the same time, as he intended imo.
It is obvious that he liked to play mind-games (just read AP and MT for example). You can decide whether you will swallow the hook and be reeled in. Or whether you step into the rabbit-hole.
Whichever way you lean it takes focus to stay the course, and not be easily sidetracked and distracted. Tho deciding which is which, and what are shiny glass beads, is not easy.
-f
As you suggested (I think), we actually have two obstacles to overcome. Deciding what is and what is not a clue. And, assuming we decide something actually is a clue, then determining what the correct interpretation of it is.
DeleteI can't even imagine anyone not actively building or simming wheels to have any real hope of doing those two things. I have no doubt that Bessler gave us an exact description of his wheels' parts in his published books, but he wanted to make sure we'd have to crawl through hell to find it!
Any newcomer thinking he will read a quick online description of Bessler's wheels and will then have them all figured out in a week or two is just another delusional fool chasing after a quick solution so he can get a quick ego trip. He might as well think he can flap his arms and fly to the moon! At a minimum figure on it taking maybe five years of intense study and active building or simming and even then the odds are stacked high against a person having success.
jason
It feels like a thorough exercise in Bessler social engineering, rather than mechanical engineering. To hide a simple solution. No doubt Bessler had a long an valuable apprenticeship as the blog title suggests. He made sure we do too.
ReplyDeleteOr, it takes only one good idea to sidestep the rhetoric and prove something is easy to understand and simple to build.
More Bessler BS, (BBS),
ReplyDeleteI see the clues as a snare. They were intended to keep people guessing and not to show the way. They should be avoided. Far better to try and figure out how a gravity wheel might work. Then the clues will become clear; once you get the wheel working-------------Sam
I agree with you Sam.
DeleteThe only real clues we have regarding Bessler's wheel, are the written testimonies of witnesses.
To a certain degree, we also have Bessler's words, when he was answering questions and making comments about how the wheel functions, during the official expositions and discussions of any financial transaction. We can't take his words at face value, but i think we can consider them to be half truths, at least. We must acknowledge that had an agreement been reached, and the internal mechanism revealed, it would have become evident that he had been talking bollocks, if his words were in no way relatable to the internal workings.
I think Bessler was happy to make fools of his "enemies", but i don't think he would have willingly made a fool of himself.
RH46
Additionally, I think there was always the possibility that his wheel could have been seized by authorities, and had the wheel been found to be a fake, Bessler would surely have been executed, and that is why I don't think the wheel was a fake.
DeleteIf there were no hidden clues, then Bessler would have had no way of establishing his priority to having found a design that worked if someone else hit upon the same design during Bessler's life and, assuming someone makes a working wheel today, there will be no sure way of knowing if it is the same one Bessler had. If that is the case, why even bother reading any of Bessler's books? One might just as well as go it alone and hope for success as close to zero as that will be.
DeleteI believe there were clues and a lot of them. As someone above said, they are very hard to find and one must study Bessler's works for years to make any progress. If we don't have enough clues to make a copy of one of Bessler's wheels today, it's because we haven't looked hard enough. Everything he wrote or drew must be examined as carefully as possible for possible clues and each one tested with actual builds or reliable sims. It is a lot of work, but probably only a tiny fraction of what one might have to do to find success while going it alone.
Stan
it is contradictory, for what and for whom he would have left clues, knowing that he would not have supported in his lifetime that another discovers his or the principle, and if one supposes that he would have wanted to enter the history he would have left a simple sketch, all that lets suppose that it is necessary to manage alone... Sorry it is common sense.
DeleteJust my guess...thx4... maybe Bessler believed in the afterlife and left those clues for himself in his next incarnation....
Deletedo you think he has already returned? if so, does he live with you? :)
DeleteI must honestly admit... Sometimes, such thoughts do occur... But I could be terribly wrong... More research in this field is required...
DeleteOne thing I am damn sure is that one is always reborn again and again... In the case of Jesus Christ this is not applicable as he directly attained divine salvation...
Bessler's soul is definitely here somewhere in someone's body again trying to sell the wheel... His incompleted task...
Thanks for your curiosity, thx4
Suresh said:
Delete"...one is always reborn again and again..."
That is contrary to Christian beliefs. You cannot possibly be a Christian after making such an absurd comment.
Gautam Buddha was able to recollect about 500 of his pastlives... The highest ever... Through intense meditation... If you don't understand or believe or just dismiss this you are seriously missing something... Well, it is your choice...
DeleteThe fact is rebirth is inevitable unless and until one goes through process like Jesus and that is the rarest of the rare...
Bessler changed his name... He knew his luck was bad... He believed in the divine... He probably knew about being born again... Maybe, that is why he didn't reveal and finally took it to his grave...
We just can't dismiss everything... Possibility, if any, is lost...
His hard work just can't go to anyone else... 300 years is proof enough... No one could unravel his secret design...
Nonsense - Bessler took 10 years from whoa to go to produce his first PM wheel, with no excuses of "clues or pictures" hiding a blue print for him to find. So can we, as he did!
ReplyDeleteMaybe he just got very lucky. Fawk there could have been a million other guys who tried that approach before Bessler and spent their lives chasing unworkable designs. We never hear about them. Many of them probably ended their days drinking themselves to death like that Kendrick guy did. We only hear about the one guy who was successful. I think it's a big mistake for anyone to think he's the next Bessler waiting to soon happen. We need to use every little scrap of help that Bessler may have left behind.
Delete@anon 23:41
DeleteYou might want to read Ken B's book because he really dug deep to get those scraps you mentioned.
I must have been daydreaming. Where in KB's book or his sim does he use SB's???
Delete@Anon01:25
DeleteI have Ken's book and the only SB or stork's bill he discusses is that large one in the middle of the shop table in the second DT portrait. He claims when it is combined with the L square drafting tool it forms the number 4 and a X sign for multiplication. That is a clue from Bessler telling us to multiply the specs for the 3 foot diameter prototype wheel to get the specs for a 12 foot wheel. Those specs for the 3 foot diameter wheel are also carefully hidden in the second DT portrait and Ken points them all out for the reader.
Ken says that stork's bill a very important clue because if you drop a vertical line down from Bessler's left eye in the portrait, it will pass exactly through the center of the pivot joint of that stork's bill which is too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence. I agree. That was Bessler's way of telling us to keep an eye on that stork's bill or actually study it very carefully which Ken does. He's found several dozen little clues like this in the two portraits which were previously completely unknown.
Actually that instrument is a compass divider, similar to the one in Bessler's left hand, not a SB.
DeleteAnd his sim has nothing remotely like one.
Anon 01:49, I don't think that's a compass divider because there is no handle near its pivot to hold it like the one in his left hand or the one laying near the bottom of the portrait. That oversized stork's bill was probably intended to measure the angle of a joint made between two pieces of wood that were inserted between its arms. Maybe after getting the angle a carpenter would then put that D shaped protractor near it to read the angle?
Delete"Oversized stork's bill" lol. It is the mid sized pair of the 3 on show in the picture! I have a set of dividers in my workshop that also do not have a handle per se, which I set point to point to get a very accurate distance measure and then transfer to my ruler to read. They double as flexible and corner angle finders because they have no handle. They would not be described as SB's by any carpenter!
DeleteI don't know what carpenter's might call that tool, but I think it definitely resembles a stork's bill where the pivot is like an eye of the bird. Here's an image of an African Marabou stork. If he opened his bill farther it would look exactly like that tool in Bessler's second portrait!
Deletehttps://www.jamboreetours.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Marabou-stork.jpg
Yes, but what in the public arena is Bessler hearsay, and tainted? Wolff and Wagner were independent witnesses. Bessler left MT and the Toys Page.
ReplyDeleteI think you start with a working concept; a concept so simple that a working model is sure to follow.
ReplyDeleteWithin the (mechanical) steps of a working model ‘two’ things need to happen. You have to increase the quantity of momentum without the application of an outside force. And you need to increase the quantity of energy without the application of an outside force.
The increase in momentum is accomplished by an Atwood’s machine. When a string, weighted with one kilogram, is wrapped around the circumference of a 99 kg wheel; the one kilogram will accelerate the wheel to 2.426 m/sec after a drop of 30 meters. This is one hundred kilograms moving 2.426 m/sec for 242.6 kg m/sec of momentum.
To thrown one kilogram upwards 30 meters the one kilogram needs a velocity of 24.26 m/sec. This is one kilogram moving 24.26 m/sec for 24.26 units of momentum.
You have an increase in momentum of 242.6 – 24.26 = 218.33 kg m/sec.
The Atwood’s provides the increase in momentum; and the yo-yo despin (cylinder and spheres) provides the increase in energy.
All the motion of a spinning wheel can be transferred to a small mass on the end of a string. The massive wheel has little energy; but when its motion is given to the small mass; that mass has a huge amount of energy. We know that momentum is conserved because the small mass ‘can’ return the motion back to the large wheel.
The spinning wheel can give its 242.6 units of momentum to the small mass; for a velocity of 242.6 m/sec. This velocity would allow the one kilogram to rise 3000 meters.
I love it, you should address yourself first, I'm waiting I'm not hanging up. :)
DeleteI rarely comment here.
DeleteI would like to say this though, much respect to John Collins, you are an inspiration. To hold on to an ideal absent certainty for more than 60 years is in itself an achievement. Hats off to you JC
About Bessler, I'm kinda on the fence about him. I cant say if he was genuine or not but one thing I can say is that it would be unfair to give him credit if an eventual perpetual motion machine is built. I believe his clues were more to obscure not educate,
It would be unjust for someone else to toil and come up with a runner and then say "you are number two, bessler did it first" without considering that such a person might have never even come across the name Bessler before.
Also, if the solution were found, the Bessler enthusiasts would try as hard to fit the clue to the machine.
Bessler clues were vague at best, for example saying there 'The machine's power was directly proportional to its diameter'- duh, ofcourse it has to be. We all know the further an object is from the axis the more force it exerts.
Another example is saying as one weight give a downward movement there is another giving an upward movement/impetus. Have you ever seen an object rotate? Ofcourse one side goes down as the other side goes up. That's what rotation is.
I believe there is harm and good in following bessler clues, good because if he was genuine, then it helps people go closer to the right path, harm because if he was false, otherwise brilliant intelligent and innovative people would be running around in circles chasing a phantom instead of using their God given imagination.
It's one of the demerits I first noticed about the whole Bessler ish. Innovators become code-breakers instead of just being innovators, we spend all that time trying to decipher clues and codes and portraits and poems and others( why would Bessler even deliberately try to mislead people if he wanted genuine posthumous acknowledgement: that's not sincere)
And who's to say there is only one solution?
We are all familiar with history. Once something that was impossible becomes possible then everyone can do it, because they know it can be done. It's like the psychological barrier shatters. I wont be surprised if so many variations of a Perpetual motion wheel starts springing up here and there once one person successfully does it.
Imagine. Innovate .
Hold on to bessler clues but not to tight.
The reason I would like to believe that Bessler was genuine is because knowing it has been done before helps to make the task of doing it again less daunting.
Now the big question is
Are we all trying to solve bessler's clues or are we trying to build a perpetual motion wheel?
To those who belong in the former category, I think it's time to give Robert Langdon a call
To those who belong in the later category, I say Goodluck.
"And who's to say there is only one solution?"
DeleteIIRC, Bessler implied this when he said no finer wheel than his would ever be constructed. If so, then one has to have his design or he has no hope of success.
Personally, I think there are other designs that will work and Bessler only found one of them because he got very lucky. Consider, for example, the Asa Jackson wheel which we still have parts of down in a museum in Kentucky. But, no one has ever figured out how it worked.
jason
From AP, page 348:
Delete"Even according to the ideas my enemies express in their writings, my Wheel is the true device, and is indeed, per se, a genuine Perpetuum Mobile. None better will ever be found upon this earth, for without the principle that I alone possess, there can be no real perpetual motion. Whoever seeks another method is deceiving himself, for my device does not need winding; it runs according to 'preponderance', and turns everything else along with it; so long as its material shall endure, it will revolve of its own accord."
Bessler clearly tells us here that his wheel uses some critical principle which ONLY HE knows about. That seems to indicate that he believed that his pm wheel design was the only one that could be possible...unless someone else managed to find that critical principle and duplicated his wheel's design. It's some method for always keeping the center of gravity of a wheel's weights on the descending side of the axle. The Count Karl tells everyone it is simple and Bessler even said it was so simple that people would say he demanded way too much money to reveal it.
Thinking about this is enough to make a person crazy!
You all keep forgetting that Bessler is not God, he ain't the all knowing Alpha and Omega. He is just a man, like any of us.
DeleteThe quoted excerpt by Bessler in the comment above just reeks of narcissism and arrogance.
There are a gazillion possibilities and I doubt if bessler tried them all, Human mortality makes that impossible. So what gives him the right to say his way is the only way? Does he have monopoly of imagination and ingenuity and infinity?
Believing there is only one way to achieve this is tantamount to believing it's impossible.
I think Bessler is right... 300 years is proof enough...to get a mechanical wheel running automatically without any external stimulation and further draw energy from it is no easy task... There just can't be too many variations... Bessler himself tried so many combinations before finally arriving at this unique arrangement... It is a once in a lifetime achievement... Every person cannot comprehend it... Bessler was the chosen one... You need help from cosmos in the form of intuition... And the universe only favours those with genuine intentions... Bessler was full of compassion... and, he had all the qualities needed...
ReplyDeleteMany genius persons like leonardo and Bhaskara too tried their best... This only goes to say that this pursuit must be authentic... If enough attempt is made by the right kind of person then success has to happen ultimately...
The problem these days is people on this quest don't have the necessary tolerance and discretion... They just don't know whom to believe and what to rule out...
For example, a simple suggestion like if you say that in Bessler wheel research building or simming is not that important... Just mental workout is sufficient there are no takers...
There is instant stiff opposition... No amount of reasoning would help...
But it is a fact that since the design is so much unique and quiet simple at the same time there is some sort of enlightenment... The inventor will be too sure that this is the one that Bessler described in the poem... Things start falling into place like the jigsaw... Then building the same is secondary...
Call it what you may... monopoly or ingenuity... This is reality...
@ Mr Suresh. I asked you a question in the previous topic, apparently you didn't see it. You are someone I so much admire and respect. I hope you ll check the previous thread and answer the question.
DeleteThe whole talk of cosmos and universe deviates from science into the metaphysical. Thats another different and dicey domain entirely.
I agree with you about the thought experiments, it's a more efficient way to go about it as it trains the mind and building too many prototype and aims just exhausts one physicality, mentally and emotionally. If your imagination is good enough you should be able to tell if an idea is gonna work or not before actually building it, but still there are things the mind cant quite analize precisely hence why physical validation of a principle is needed from time to time. You dont have to build the whole thing, you just have to build a simple or not so simple mechanism to test any particular principle of your idea in which your imagination cannot capture precisely. Emphasis on precisely.
About Bessler being compassionate, I doubt that, I highly doubt that. If he was that compassionate then he would have given the world his idea before he died regardless whether any material benefit was going to accrue to him or not. That's not compassion, that's the opposite of compassion. And to further state how not so compassionate Bessler was, he was willing to die in penury rather than give the world his wheel.
And his book and poems and portraits and clues is not his way of trying to give it to the world. If the universe chose Bessler, if he was divinely chosen(which he believed) then he wouldn't have failed, especially after discovering the principle.
Heck you could be the chosen one too, who is to say you are not.
And the fact that we've not been able to so it for three hundred years since Bessler doesn't mean anything. It only means we haven't tried hard enough.
Heavier than air flight was impossible for tens of thousands of years before the 19th century, should the people in 1100 AD have given up trying because it hadn't been done for thousands of years,? No.
Take the case of internal combustion engine or the electric motor mechanism for that matter...
ReplyDeleteConsidering how popular they have been and also their efficiency... How many variations are there in the market...
Does a car uses gasoline in a different way to produce the motive power?
Don't you think the engine mechanism is very unique in its own way?...
Why there are no questions over its monopoly?...
How efficient the humble electric motor technology has been over the years?...
Why there is no variations in this regard?...
Every authentic, genuine and groundbreaking technology has its own importance in the world...
There may be upgradation or more efficient designs available from time to time but the basic or fundamental design retains its own position in most cases...
We use forks and spoons and knives on the dining table... How much have they changed?...
Take for instance the ubiquitous wheel...
The basic concept remains the same, isn't it?...
Okay now I see your point, but i still dont agree complete though, that we haven't come up with other variations to the motor or internal combustion engine doesn't mean there arent ways to do it. The world hasn't ended yet, what? It's only been a few hundred years since this technological discovery but the world still has thousands or millions of more years to exist.
ReplyDeleteSorry, I wrongly used the word 'compassion'... Please read it as 'Passion'...
ReplyDeleteThree hundred years atleast goes to prove the monopoly of BW to a great extent... Thousands of variations must have been tried out already...
Take my word, if a variation is found say after a thousand years it will not carry that charm or the sensation of BW... Original is original... There is no limit for speculation... BW has stood its ground for 300 years and that is good enough... It has surpassed the flight impossibility theory by 200 years margin....
You only need to test your idea practically in circumstances where possibilities of doubts exist... To learn how fast it would rotate for a given size...etc., but, what I meant is about the core idea... When you are sure it gels with Bessler's basic hints in the poem then testing is only a formality...
Let me explain it for you in an other way...
When he shouted Eureka, Eureka Archimedes was very sure about the great discovery he had made, isn't it?... How much excited he was... It is said that he ran out naked in the street...
BW secret realisation is like that Eureka moment...
I am grateful to you for your trust in me... You don't know how pleased I am...
Others here lack your understanding... You seem to be reasonable... But the only problem is you get easily carried away by Ken's words...
I somehow don't really understand why you prefer to call yourself as 'rolling'... You could be easily mistaken for ken... He manifests in so many unpredictable ways and has defamed the already perplexing subject... I have a feeling that by withholding your real identity you are not being very fair in bessler's case...
Incase, you had been closer to my place I would have definitely met you and shared the secret...you would be more convinced that way...
If I have succeeded in convincing you in any way so far I feel that is good enough... Bessler offered his head but still many couldn't get convinced...
To understand why Bessler behaved that way you need to take into account his temperament... Even after he vouched his life people were still sceptical... He would naturally lose his temper...
Your argument about the monopoly claim is reasonable...
But, again, there is no limit for speculation... Ordinary bulb gave way to tubelight, cfl and now to LED lighting...
BW may have different manifestations in future but those may be superior ones and not like the BW...
Firearm has seen sea-changes... I am not sure if I am able to convince you...
The way Bessler designed his wheel is very unique... The way Karl described it... And, there is only one way to do it but there may be different ways of achieving PM...
A day will come and the metaphysical matter would be incorporated in science syllabus...
Coming to the question of why I haven't built...
You don't really seem to have followed all my comments since more than ten years...
I am lazy...
I don't have resources...
I lack technical skills...
I don't have supporters...
My luck or fate is not favouring...
I am very paranoid...
I feel insecure about safeguarding the secret after it is built...
Since one glance inside by anyone is enough to give everything away...
I feel there are too many sceptics around...
They may insist on seeing inside before buying...
I am not very sure how to handle the case further after the build...
I am looking for someone like Karl with whom I can safely confide...
Bessler's failure still haunts me...
I am not sure if I may be paid accordingly...
I am simply waiting for that auspicious moment to reveal...
Okay. Now I understand you a little more.
DeleteHey, you ve been on this for so many years, and you know time isn't always a luxury. If you lack technical skills,acquire it. If you are lazy then do it bit by bit, you can devote 10-15 minutes a day to building it and you will be surprised how far you come within a month. You can write comments here right, so you are not so lazy that you are immobile.
You might just be Besslers reincarnation, doesn't mean you have to make the same mistakes he did, shouldn't you at least learn from your past lives , how many lifetimes will it take you to get it right?
About me choosing to remain anonymous, it wouldn't even matter if I said my real name, I'm just a boy from Africa, you wouldn't be able to even differentiate if my name was my moniker.
About you been paranoid, hey we all are.get over it. There are patent laws now and the internet.
If you lack resources, you could start with what you have. You have a phone or at least a laptop and if you sell it you could have money to build the first prototype. If Bessler could do it with wood and iron then you know the cost is not so expensive that it would be costlier than your gadgets. You could start by setting up a small business which is energy intensive and use the wheel to power your business, since you dont have to pay for energy that would bring your cost of production down thereby maximally increasing your profit margin. You grow from there to the point where you dont need supporters. You would be able to support yourself. Heck you practically have access to unlimited energy. What more do you want? Or you want to be in Elon Musks position and still the idea that you have? That would just be life giving you an unfair advantage. You use what you have to get what you want. Nobody said it was going to be easy.
I just dont understand how you could be so passionate about this things and still allow that passion cripple you.
I heard india is experiencing blackouts due to power shortage, dont you feel the need to at least help your people. This is a game changing world changing history making invention. Come on, would you let you stand in the way of that?
Nah, I think you shouldn't
Thanks for so much of guidance... You really are a genuine besslerite...
ReplyDeleteI will try to take your advice seriously and when I make some progress I will let you know...
By resources I meant workshop, ability to handle metal work., Etc...
Many times I cut my fingers while chopping vegetables... while trying to split coconut...
You actually didn't understand my real problem... There is so much quantity of fruits and eatables lying in my bedroom to feed 20 people at any given time... But as they rot I keep throwing them away in lots... But that doesn't prevent me from buying again... I just keep buying but too lazy to wash, cut and eat them... I find that it is easier to dispose them off when they start rotting... I starve many times despite excess food at home...
Please note that when commenting here I never misguide or speak lies...
About three years back I visited a factory and placed orders for levers and weights and also paid heavily in advance... But that guy asked me to visit multiple times for about a year till I became fed up and stopped going... He was too clever... He also wanted to know the complete design... He didn't return my money... I thought it was safer to avoid him...
Many times I don't even drink sufficient water... Too lazy to reach out for that glass... You know one more thing... I have been drinking water from the same old plastic tumbler for the last 15 years and haven't washed it once... That is the state of my activity...I still hold several years garbage at my home... Too lazy to dispose... Many times I avoid brushing or bathing... too lazy to rise from bed ..
But, as far as bw is concerned, I am mentally very active... I am still basking in the glory of BW design realization...
I hope I have not bored you much with my miseries... I had to tell you why I haven't yet built the BW...
I have a feeling you still aren't fully aware how much lazy I am...
I don't wash my spoons after the meal... I just wipe them off with tissue... To lazy to approach the wash area... I have all amenities at home in excess but still starve... Food items daily start to spoil... I am too engrossed with Bessler thoughts...
You talked about patenting the invention but what if it gets leaked during patent process... You always seem to forget... Just one glance can give it all away...
This is the biggest problem in handling bw...
Suresh, I think we all suffer from most of the same problems you have identified, but we try to get over them, sometimes it takes weeks, but we get there in the end. You don’t seem to see the irony of your position - you want fame and fortune without giving your secret away, but you have no secret if you haven’t made the working model. Build it, prove it, then worry! Or be like me, if I succeed I’ll give it away. If you succeed, then you will not worry about the secret any more. 🙂
DeleteJC
JC
Wow, and I thought I was lazy. Yours sir is on another level completely.
DeleteStill, it’s not an excuse. You aren’t incapacitated by health issues or deformity, it’s only in your mind.
I for example run my experiments with things like cardboard paper instead of wood, coins instead of weighted materials cause at least I know all coins weigh the same, scissors, superglue, styrofoam, toothpicks (I kid you not), etc. the conditions doesn’t have to be perfect, only the idea has to be.
That spoon and cup you refuse to wash was once someone’s idea, it started as that and ended up as tangible objects in your hand. If they didn’t make the effort then you wouldn’t enjoy those things.
Life has a way of balancing things, you have the idea but lack sufficient will, others have an abundance of will but lack the idea. You know the saying “some have shoes but have no legs, some have legs but have no shoes”
The only obstacle I see here is you. So Mr Suresh, can you conquer yourself? It is life hardest battle, to gain victory in her ones self. You cannot hope to conquer the world if you cannot conquer yourself. Because bringing this innovation to life would essentially be going against the world.
So...... what are you waiting for?
Get off your ass and go do this thing.
You are not going to live forever you know, unless you ve somehow found the secret to immortality.
About patenting. It’s a risk you are going to have to take. You could file for patents simultaneously in different countries on the same day although you would need resources to do that. Resources and finances you can steadily acquire using your perpetual motion wheel to run business that would yield you huge profit. But hey, there are no certainties, nothing in life ever is, only death. Also nobody has to look inside your prototype, filing for patents in itself proves priority, anyone that looks inside would have to somehow go back in time and file the patent before you in order to claim it, that’s why it’s good to file for patents as early as possible, also why filing it in different countries would help your case
DeleteThe secret to immortality is the knowledge of reincarnation...you know we actually never perish... Bessler's efforts may pay him off in this lifetime...
DeleteI think you have not understood bw thoroughly... You shouldn't forget that you are dealing with gravity...
Gravity has more effect on heavy objects... You say you experiment with coins and card boards... This does not gel well...
The weights have to be significant...
Both the condition and the idea have to be perfect... Take my word here...
Thanks a lot for everything today... I am already inspired by your kind words... You are different from others...
Since how many years you are involved in this?... How did it all start?... How old are you and what is your profession?...
Suresh sounds like he's suffering from severe depression. If so, then he needs to take medication to treat it. If he's already on antidepressant medication, then maybe it's time to try a different one that is more effective. One of the problems with any medication is that it can suddenly just stop working, especially when the problem it is treating suddenly gets worse. Unless he does that, he could continue to do as he's done for a decade so far and just float along getting nothing done except constantly hinting about how he knows Bessler's secret but can't reveal it because "the time is not right yet".
DeleteWithout an actual working model or sim his secret is most likely just another delusion like millions of other pm chasers have had over the centuries. Another reason, aside from depression, that he produces nothing except words is that people often get comfortable with their delusions and really don't want to risk seeing them destroyed by harsh reality. They may not even realize that they are actually going out of their ways to avoid having to do anything that might destroy their delusions and that is the reason for their never ending procrastinations. If that was to happen, then they would suddenly have nothing. They would suddenly be empty which can make their depressions even worse. Then to relieve those even deeper depressions, they have to scramble to find some new delusions to replace the old ones they lost. That takes a lot of work which is even more difficult for them to do because of their deeper depression which can paralyze the mind and body.
Nice,
DeleteAm glad to hear that @ Mr Suresh, even though i hope its gonna be me who discovers it, i wish you good luck all the same. Success from any quarter would me success for all of us. I really hope i can say it's going to make the world a better place but i cant say that for certain because you know we humans, we have a way of screwing good things up.
I am 29 years old, an african. I am a graduate of political science but I possess an infinitely curious mind. I cant remember how exactly I stumbled upon perpetual motion machine concept but I couldn't let go ever since. It all started with a quest to make my country a better place and after lots of thinking and reflection and I concluded that Energy is at the core of the problems of my country and the world, it could be the silver bullet that solves most of our problems. This was in the year 2014. So it's been 7 years and counting.
Let me also state that I figured that the idea was so simple that it could take an individual a day, a week or a year to come up with it. Doesn't have to take years, it could just be a peculiar mind that figures it out.
About not understanding how gravity works, that's a subjective concept. No one can fully and truly grasp how gravity works. Only God knows that. We can only observe its effect on things and then speculate.
With regard to heaviness, it doesn't matter. It's the ratio that matters.
A weight of 10g would have two times preponderance over a weight of 5g. As would a weight of 100kg have two times preponderance over a weight of 50kg. You see the weight increases but the ratio remains the same. If you were to build a frictionless wheel and pluck two strands of hair from you head and put it on one side then pluck another single hair and put it on the other side, you know which side would turn right? This experiment would have the same effect if you were to put two anvils on one side and a single anvil on the other. So I think the weight doesn't matter in the sense that it doesn't have to be heavy. Just reasonably heavy enough to overcome the friction of whatever bearing you are using
@ suresh. You wouldn't believe how many times I ve had Euraka moments, ideas i would have bet my life on that it would work only to run experiments and see it fail. When you get that a lot then you would realise that imagination is not perfect. The domain of thought differs from the real world. And since you are trying to bring your idea from the realm of the mind into the real world, it has to work in the real world for you to be absolutely sure.
DeleteI always tell myself that nature cannot betray itself. It cannot but comply with it's own rules. That's the only way to beat it
Rolling thanks... How I wish I was with you there... We could have cracked this thing long back... It would have been fun all the way...two brains are better...
DeleteAll successful ideas cannot be called as eurekha moments... See, we are fortunate to have hints from Bessler and other observers...
Our ideas have to match with all that...
I still feel that ratio alone would not suffice... To get gravity effects noticeably the weights need to have a certain mass... Bessler started with a good sized weight with enough mass...
You could also be right... But the tinier it gets the accuracy factor becomes critical...
You drop a paper sheet and an iron object from a height... It is easy to notice the path of the iron object's fall but not of the other... Air molecules affects it's falling motion...
I agree with you about how gravity works... But the mystery has to be solved somehow... You still didn't hear my version on this yet... See, once I explained what the clue children playing among column or pillars meant but I was ridiculed... Ken would be the first to dismiss my theory... So let's first listen to what JC sir has to say on this... I could only understand bw energy source with help of JC sir's statement that gravity is an enabler... That set me into thinking vigorously... similarly, I am going to take your inputs seriously and soon start gathering material to assemble a small model...
I again agree with you on gravity... But it is important that someone soon explains how it works... I want JC sir to create an amicable and favourable situation here... Ken is a killer... A spoiler... He says bw gets energy from the mass of the weights but he fails to fully convince us here...
When you go to explain something one should make sure that even a child should be able to grasp it easily...
I find you are a reasonable man with a sound mind... Should be fun to work on such mysteries of the world...
I think sir isac Newton and Einstein especially have contributed a lot... Maybe Bessler would have got inspired by Newton sir but We are in a better world now... We have both Newton and Einstein's help in understanding gravity's effects better...
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DeleteYou are right sir... I think I have learnt good things today... Now my priority is to start making a tiny replica of BW... Small enough for easy handling... I am too pleased with rolling today... I had to speak my heart out to someone...
ReplyDeleteI want to tell you that I have never been lazy to think about Bessler...
I think I have a good understanding of three things... Your blog has also been quite inspiring... I like the way you bring new topics now and then... It keeps us fresh in life... I am able to forget so much of my miseries when I see your blog daily... I never visit any other blog...
The three things are;...
BW mechanism,
BW energy source,
How Gravity works,
I am not too sure about the second and third but am thrilled with the understanding...
When I joined your blog more than ten years back I was sure about the first one but didn't have an inkling about the second or the third...
Are you interested to know my version about the Bessler wheel energy source?...
Of course SK, we'd like to know your thoughts on where the extra energy comes from.
ReplyDeleteLol! If he even answers you, expect him to just say that the energy somehow comes from gravity. He might as well just tell you its provided by invisible spirits. Like JC, he doesn't have the faintest idea of where the energy comes from and probably doesn't even understand what energy is. He may think he has a wheel design that will work, but don't ever expect any drawings from him or even an explanation clear and detailed enough for anyone else to make a drawing for him. He's not here to do that. He only comes here when he occasionally needs to strengthen his fading belief that he's actually found the solution to Bessler's wheels. So let him enjoy his delusion and don't waste your time pestering him for any real information. You won't be getting any as he's demonstrated to many others here in the last ten years!
DeleteKen is back with his old tricks... He is a show spoiler... Every bit matters to solve world's darkest mysteries... If JC sir wishes I would like to place my views on the bw energy source...
ReplyDeleteThis is debatable not meant to be condemned... or criticized...
It's "debatable"...just so long as we don't criticize it? Lol!
Delete@ SK. So what if people criticize and condemn your idea? It doesn't matter. You need to have a very thick skin. Like you said earlier, two heads are better than one. Critics help provide another perspective which one hasn't seen before. Yes they may be vicious and cruel but they may also be right.
DeleteRemove the negativity and take the criticism with grace. No one wants to associate with people that can't take criticisms.
It's not going to be all sunshine and lollipops. It takes a strong and wise man to embrace all the criticisms and separate the wheat from the chaff.
Dont be afraid of being criticised. The truth about life is there would always be critics, even if you say 2+2=4, people would still criticise. Its important to note that the people criticising you are not perfect themselves, they are humans prone to errors hence their criticisms might be wrong. I'm sure even you too would have criticized something before. Dont expect people to just agree with everything you say same way you wouldn't agree with everything someone else's say.
I agree with you...ok...
ReplyDeleteTo achieve success or attain goal I learnt that there are six criterias... or requirements...
EFFORT, ENERGY, SKILL, PROVIDENCE (luck), WILLINGNESS & TIME...
What do you think Bessler lacked?...
I think I lack all of it...
Has anybody else noticed that SK still hasn't given us his version of where the energy in Bessler's wheels came from?
DeleteWhenever it comes time for him to deliver something he promised to do he will just go off in some other direction as he's doing right now hoping that no one will notice. He knows that John will eventually post a new blog and the one in which he promised to reveal something to prove that he really does know the secret of Bessler's wheels will then be quickly forgotten. Then watch as he plays that same little game of his in that next blog. It's really fascinating to watch and many probably come here regularly to be entertained by it!
rolling
ReplyDeleteThe rule that can not betray itself is the Law of Conservation of Momentum: that is Newtonian Momentum mv. This is the only Law of Motion that is conserved without excuses and/or imaginary friends.
All the motion of 100 kilograms can be transferred to one kilogram. NASA did it in the Dawn Mission yo-yo despin device. It is also done in $50 experiments (cylinder and spheres). It is proven that Newtonian Momentum is conserved; because the motion can be returned to the larger object. Ballistic pendulums prove that only Newtonian Momentum is conserved when small masses give their motion to large objects.
Repeat the cylinder and spheres experiments and you will not have a failure. It will produce a massive amount of energy. If Bessler had a working model then this is the Law he used. But Bessler had no significant rise; so he used only a fraction of the energy that was available.
The energy increases are something like this: 100 kg moving 1 m/sec has 50 joules of energy; 1 kg moving 100 m/sec has 5000 joules of energy. The significant rise is the difference between having a running and having a power plant.
The problem will be how to convert or channel that energy/momentum without loss. Fast or slow, the energy used in achieving any state of momentum is the same.
DeleteTo be honest I dont fully comprehend where you are headed with your analogy. It would be nice if you could expantiate further
I will refer to the experiments done by others so you do not think I am pulling this out of my hat.
ReplyDeleteThe Dawn Mission satellite had its spin stopped by unwinding weighted tethers that were positioned 180° across a diameter of the circle of the satellite. Less than 3 kilograms stopped the spinning of the 1420 kg satellite. ‘Practical Engineering; yo-yo despin’ is a similar experiment done on the Earth.
These experiments (as well as my own) prove that 100 kg can give all of its motion to 1 kg.
Now we know (from ballistic pendulums) that, when one kilogram give its motion to 100 kg, only Newtonian Momentum is conserved (mv). We also know that the 1 kilogram that has received all the motion will return all the motion if it is left attached to the satellite. So we know that the 1 kilogram received all the Newtonian Momentum from the satellite because that is the only type of motion that can be given back to the satellite.
I will put this in numbers: 100 kg moving 1 m/sec will become 1 kg moving 100 m/sec. This is Newton’s Law of Conservation of Momentum.
½ 100 kg * 1 m/sec * 1 m/sec = 50 joules
½ 1 kg * 100 m/sec * 100 m/sec = 5000 joules
The fact that the motion comes back to the satellite when the weights are left attached proves that Newton is correct. The 1 kg must be moving 100 m/sec.
The 1 kg can rise; 509.68 m
Wrap a string around a 99 kg wheel and let one kilogram accelerate it for 509.68 meters. It will be moving 10 m/sec and it will have 100 kg * 10 m/sec = 1000 units of momentum. And you started with 100 units.
These numbers are big but a 30 meter rise is reasonable.
I agree that linear momentum is always conserved and also that a 100 kg weight moving at 1 m/sec has 50 joules of kinetic energy while a 1 kg weight moving at 100 m/sec has 5000 joules of kinetic energy.
DeleteBut, you seem to think that conserving linear momentum can somehow result in kinetic energy not being conserved whenever energy is transferred from one object to another. The 100 kg weight here can only supply a maximum of 50 joules of kinetic energy to the 1 kg weight and that won't accelerate it to 100 m/sec. It will only accelerate it to 10 m/sec assuming a 100% transfer of kinetic energy. In order for that 1 kg weight to have a final velocity of 100 m/sec, you would have to have 4950 joules of kinetic energy magically appear out of nowhere.
I think if something like this was possible, it would have been discovered a long time ago and we wouldn't have the first law of thermodynamics now.
jason
Okay.Say 100kg moving at 1 m/sec transfers momentum to 1kg thereby making it accelerate at 100 m/sec. The issues now how to harness the energy is there is a surplus. From my understanding, it will take the energy from 1kg × 100m/sec to make 100kg × 1m/sec.
ReplyDeleteHow do you get 100kg to move at 1m/sec in the first place.
Whatever energy it would take is equal or less to whatever energy the moving mass can give
By giving it a push like Bessler did in the two-way wheel...
ReplyDeleteRolling... you missed reading Delburt's previous comment... An initial manual push is required...
I think Delburt has a point but he is not able to put it in a way we can easily understand...
The initial push as you put it is required to get the wheel going. Fine, you give the wheel a push, it starts spinning, say there is no friction, it spins forever, if there is friction it keeps slowing down until eventually it stops. Let's even assume there is no friction, the moment you try to harness energy from the spinning it slows down until it stops.
DeleteThen you will need to give it another initial push to get it going again. That initial push is gonna cost you energy. Where do you get it from? From the spinning? No, the spinning wont put out more energy than was spent to get it going.
Delburt gave an example of how momentum can be transferred. Agreed 100kg moving at 1m/sec can transfer momentum/energy to 1kg thereby making it move at 100m/sec. As far as I can tell,the energy just changed form. It hasn't increased. If the 1kg weight moving at 100m/sec were to impact or transfer momentum to the 100kg weight, it cant accelerate it faster than that.
Wrapping a 1kg weight around a 99kg wheel to accelerate it would only yield the force of 1kg accelerating, not 100kg. My reasoning is thus- the 99kg wheel isn't really 99kg. You divide the wheel vertically into two equal parts,the line should run down the centre/axis,now you have the left part and the right part and gravity acting on both sides, so therefore it is 49.5kg on the right side acting against 49.5kg on the left side. Equilibrium is attained. No motion.
Then you add a 1kg weight anyhow to one side to accelerate it, it moves cause now it more like 49.5kg + 1kg acting on one side versus 49.5 kg only on the other side. The wheel will not spin with a force of 100kg. It's the net force that counts.
Acceleration due to gravity will be spent trying to lift the same weight back up,no matter the pace.
Again, I'm no expert in this matters. I just give opinion based on my own understanding of this whole phenomena
Involving too many calculations is only going to spin my head perpetually... I am quite illiterate when it comes mathematics and formulas...
ReplyDeleteFrankly speaking, I was the dullest in school...I am more confused now than before...
Perhaps, JC sir may try and explain this to us in simple English...
In a way, you are also right... but, I think Delburt too has a point...
Thing is we are not able to grasp what he is trying to make out...
Why I am saying this is because I feel Bessler wheel is making use of somewhat a similar principle...
One pound is able to raise four pounds...
The initial push he means it in a different way... It is only to enable the system...it is a starter... Now, you need that secret mechanism to take over... there is a boost in every cycle of rotation... this goes on and on... Delburt is actually not aware of that secret mechanism which makes it possible for the wheel to rotate... There is a booster shot delivered automatically at every turn...then only BW is possible...
If by chance you happened to travel abroad try meeting me dear... I will clarify every thing...
Many of us are still eagerly waiting for you to "clarify" where you think the energy that B's wheels put out came from. Do we have to "travel abroad" to get the explanation from you? Why not just give it here and save us all a lot of time and traveling expenses?
Delete@anon19:32
DeleteDon't you understand that SK cannot reveal the secret energy source of Bessler's wheels because JC didn't ask him to so it's really all JC's fault that we will not be able to learn about that source! Shame on JC for not asking SK! But if JC was to do that it might be interpreted as him not knowing the source himself. That could then be interpreted as JC having less knowledge about Bessler's wheels than SK does. No wonder JC has decided not to play SK's game!
Maybe JC sir is averse to it as he didn't accept my offer to reveal, Ken...
ReplyDeleteIt is very important that everyone is in a positive and receptive mood when something important is being discussed... otherwise, it may get trolled and land into oblivion as it happened earlier in the children playing clue revelation...
rolling
ReplyDelete50.5 kg on one side and 49.5 on the other side will accelerate at; 9.81 m/sec/sec/100 = .0981 m/sec/sec for 509.68 m. for a velocity of 10 m/sec. and 1000 kg m/sec of momentum.
This gives ten times the momentum and 100 times the energy. Let the wheel throw the one kg up and put it in an Atwood's A rim mass wheel accelerate just like a Atwood's machine.
Kumar
Are you sure he did not use four to lift (throw) one? four kg moving 1 m/sec is less energy than 1 kg moving 4 m/sec. 2 J and 8 J
Wrong. Your misconception is that you still regard the weight as 100kg. It is just 1kg. Try doing your calculations again this time taking into cognisance the net effect
DeleteYou could be right Delburt... I am not good at calculations...so I am confused... But I think you do have a point to make... thanks...
ReplyDeleteLet’s look at the MIT Atwood’s on the internet; 550 g on one side and 560 grams on the other side
ReplyDeleteAfter a drop of one meter for the 10 grams; the 1110 grams is moving .4204 m/sec.
This MIT Atwood’s produces 1.110 kg * .4204 m/sec = .4667 units of momentum.
You can transfer all this momentum to the small 10 gram mass. So that would be .01 kg * X = .4667 units of momentum. = 46.67 m/sec for the 10 grams
At 46.67 m/sec the 10 grams can be thrown upwards 111 m: and it was only dropped one meter.
The transfer of motion from an Atwood’s to a small mass was done by a student in Ohio and a professor in Germany; among many others I am sure. These two are on the internet.
What if the 10 gram was instead; 1 metric ton raised 111 times the distance it was dropped? Only one meter is needed to reload and the remaining 110 meters is free energy.