John Worton's comment about Venus transiting the Sun on 6th JUne 2012 got me thinking about the date some more and I googled it.
It seems that there will indeed be a transit of Venus across the Sun on that day, a wednesday. This is when the planet Venus passes directly between the Sun and Earth. During a transit, Venus can be seen from Earth as a small black disk moving across the face of the Sun. The duration of such transits is usually measured in hours, the most recent one, in 2004,lasted six hours. Six previous such events have occurred since the invention of the telescope (1631, 1639, 1761, 1769, 1874 and 1882).
But there are people who view such events with alarm or excitement, I'm not sure which. There is one group which is gathering people together at well-known sacred sites around the world to celebrate this event. I note Glastonbury is one; another is Belukha Mountain? I'd never heard of it but apparently it is in the Katun Mountains, and is the highest peak of the Altay Mountains in Russia. It is part of the World Heritage Site entitled Golden Mountains of Altai.
Belukha is a twin-peaked mountain massif that rises along the border of Russia and Kazakhstan, just north of the point where these two borders meet those of China and Mongolia. There are several small glaciers on the mountain. Of the two peaks, the eastern peak (4,506 m, 14,784 ft.) is higher than the western peak (4,440 m, 14,567 ft.). I cannot imagine how or why hoards of people plan to gather there! I don't know which peak they plan to meet on but they'll need oxygen and some mighty warm clothing!
According to their blurb, 'in many cultures this Venus Transit is considered a very special occasion. In one of the early Mayan books, the Dresden Codex, the beginning of the Great Cycle in August, 3114 BC is referred to as the "Birth of Venus". The Year 2012 is the end of this Great Cycle. Many American Indians from North and South America call 2012 the Year Zero. The Hopi Indians refer to this time of the coming of the Fifth World, and many prophecies have heralded this time of transition. Also in the ancient Vedic and Egyptian trandition Venus has a major role in the historical events on planet Earth. It's not surprising then that the second Venus transit of this decade falls in June, 2012, just six months from the end of the Mayan calendar in December 2012.'
Apparently....on June 6th 2012; the Sun, Moon, Venus and Earth will stand in one line in the Universe. All prophecies are referring to this specific moment in time. Many people all over the world are aware of that and will decide to go to sacred places to connect with each other, in order to transform the world to a higher level of existence...and many Evangelicals across America are convinced the 'rapture' is coming and the date is June 6th 2012.They say that many were against naming an exact day for fear of looking foolish if nothing happens but Wednesday, 6th June 2012 is becoming the day nominated for cataclysmic events across the globe during which the 40 odd million "saved" in America will literally "rapture " into heaven... leaving the rest of us to burn in hell ... !
I'm more than a little sceptical about all this ancient history prediction stuff but it certainly looks like an extremely apposite time for the second coming of Bessler's wheel! Let's do it!
JC
I certainly hope that June 6th, 2012 is the "Second Coming" of Bessler's wheels. If not, then, assuming this blog is still up and running afterward, I'm wondering what the discussion will be about here on June 7th!?
ReplyDeleteIf it follows the pattern of other failed past prophecies, then we will see an outpouring of rationalizations as to why we don't yet have the secret of Bessler's wheels. The "believers" will be disheartened, but the few that don't abandon the "quest" will rededicate themselves to it. Some might proclaim that the "Second Coming" should be 300 years after the destruction of Bessler's LAST publically demonstrated wheel at Kassel. Of course, the skeptics will feel invigorated by the failed "Second Coming" and will continue on with their boring mantra of "If it was possible, it would have been done centuries ago. Bessler must have been a liar and his wheels clever hoaxes.!" So nice to have a position that does not require them to make any effort to verify it. But, then again that would get them out of their comfy armchairs and into the shop to actually BUILD something!
Regardless of which planet is between the Earth and Sun on any given day, I DO expect 2012 to be a rather hectic year for humanity. In fact, it could be the beginning of the GREATEST Depression ever which will sink all of humanity into an economic stagnation from which it will have great difficulty recovering.
I saw on the financial news just this morning that Moody's is getting ready to "downgrade" Great Britain's soveign debt! That will mean more cost for the Brits to borrow money to keep their debt ridden country afloat and more suffering for the British people dependent on various government services. We will eventually see a wave of such downgrades across the western world and conditions will continue to worsen in the USA.
The final result? What it always is...one hell of a world war and most likely a "limited" NUCLEAR one this time! One great way to eliminate the debt nations are drowning in is to destroy the nations that are their creditors!
What has any of this to do with Bessler's wheels? Damned if I know.
Hey, wait a minute. That upcoming Venusian solar transit on June 6th, 2012 will be the FIFTH such Earth visible transit since the death of Bessler! There's that blasted number again!!! Arrggghh!!!
I need to lay down in a darkened room for awhile until my head stops spinning....I feel an acute attack of "Pentamania" coming on! LOL!
You can turn on the lights, tg.
ReplyDeleteYou didn't count the one in 2004.
http://www.wepsite.de/The%20Day%20Nothing%20Happened(Monty%20Python).mp3
ReplyDelete@ Doug
ReplyDeletePhew! That's a relief. JC missed that 2004 one in his list of 1631, 1639, 1761, 1769, 1874 and 1882.
I can imagine that ancient people could get REALLY shook up when they saw strange "signs" in the heavens such as mysterious dark spots moving across the safely viewable face the of the setting Sun. They often considered it proof positive that their various gods / goddesses were becoming active for some awesome purpose involving humanity.
There's an interesting story involving Christopher Columbus.
After discovering the "New World" and later returning from Spain, he was involved in a shipwreck that stranded him and his crew on a small island in the Caribbean. With a long wait until a rescue ship found them, they all had to camp out near the beach so they could be ready to signal any passing ship if they spotted it.
The problem was that the island was also inhabited by natives who, although initially tolerant of the shipwreck survivors, began to grow increasingly hostile as they became convinced that the survivors were bad luck and responsible for the tribe's various problems. Soon it became evident to Columbus that it would not be long before he and his men were attacked and killed by the natives.
Columbus, however, had an interesting trick up his sleeve. He had an almanac that predicted that, quite coincidentally, there was a lunar ellipse of the Sun scheduled to take place in a few days. He then sent a messenger to the chief of the natives with a message that told him that his god (that is Columbus') was more powerful than the chief's and that he would deliver a terrible fate to the natives if they did not treat Columbus and his crew more hospitably. To prove this, Columbus' god would blot out the Sun for awhile in two days.
Sure enough, two days later the solar ellipse took place as predicted. The next day the native chief sent people to deliver all sorts of tasty fruits, fish, fresh water, etc. to Columbus and his crew. The chief made sure they were all well fed thereafter and treated them with the utmost respect.
Sometimes having advanced knowledge of the heavens can come in handy!
TG, John included 2004 in the sentence before the list.
ReplyDeleteScience has cleared up a lot of confusion about astronomical events, mainly how they have no significance as related to human events, history, or timekeeping.
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteRight you are. Somehow I missed that 2004 date. I think I'm going to demand a refund from that speed reading course I attended. (Speed reding school joke: I once read "War and Peace" in 15 minutes. It had something to do with Russia, I think! LOL!)
The heavens have nothing to do with earthly affairs? Don't tell that to an astrologer! Hasn't it been demonstrated that the number of admissions to mental hospitals tends to "spike" around the monthly time of a full moon. Don't most women ovulate around that time?
I remember there was something called the "Jupiter Effect" that was written about a few decades ago. Apparently, there was a significant correlation between the position of Jupiter in the sky and the frequency of earthquakes.
I try to keep an open mind on these issues, but it's always nice to see some science backing up any claims.
"
ReplyDeleteI try to keep an open mind on these issues, but it's always nice to see some science backing up any claims"
Ya. It's too bad you never show any science.
Every woman ovulates at a full moon? Don't tell my wife and two daughters! LOFL!
ReplyDeleteMy "theory" to explain correlations of human and astronomical events is simple (remember Occam's razor): it's a similar phenomenon to hypochondria. You think you should ovulate at a full moon, because the cycles are so close together , and some women actually do. Coincidence. You hear people get crazy at a full moon, and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Coincidence. Planets in alignment has always been a significant event for ancient people, how could it be insignificant?
The point being , if you think something is true, in your mind it becomes true. If anything happens by chance to reinforce that truth, then your thinking aligns with the event, and the "synchronicity" is complete.
We are not in control.
For everyone's countdown entertainment
ReplyDeletehttp://www.worldend.org/2012/clock-countdown.html
HoHoHo!
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteI just checked it out and most women ovulate during the NEW moon and then menstruate two weeks later during the FULL moon. I don't think its because they have been told they are supposed to either. Rather it's probably due to some genetic adaptation of some sort.
Perhaps millions of years ago, male proto humans would use the light of the full moon to go out and hunt nocturnal prey for food. This was a good time for the females to mensturate. However, during the new moon the males would, because of the absence of moon light, stay home (in a cave or village hut I suppose) and have nothing better to do than inseminate the females. Ovulating during this time would increase the chance of a pregnancy and thereby assure the survival of the still evolving human race.
Thanks for that link. Seems like everybody is posting all sorts of count up and count down clocks of late. After awhile it will all become a mind numbing whirl of numbers. What will really count is whether or not one is getting his / her 1500 calories per day. God help those in the Third World countries during the next decade or so. The "Grim Reaper" is already sharpening his scythe!
Doug wrote;
ReplyDelete"We are not in control."
Actually Doug, you think you are. Because you don't think planetary bodies are. Right?
Here's another link:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.livescience.com/7899-moon-myths-truth-lunar-effects.html
Anon, no, neither is in control.
If you must have something in control, it would be gravity interestingly enough, wouldn't it?
Hmmm....who's ultimately in control?
ReplyDeleteThe astrologer says its the constellations and planets in our solar system. But he focuses on only 12 constellations out of the 40 in the night sky. As far as planets are concerned, Neptune and Pluto weren't discovered until relatively recently and are not part of ancient astrological charts.
The theologian says that there is a Supreme God in charge of the universe. But, he has difficulty explaining why this eternal, all powerful, all knowing, all loving god takes no action when the most senseless tragedies take place in life (I won't make a list here, but if I did it would include things like the Holocaust and that tidal wave the day after Christmas a few years back that drowned 100,000 children). If one is religious, he must simply assume these things were allowed to happen because they somehow served some "greater good".
The physicist tells us that the fundamental LAWS (capitalized so you won't dare question them!) of physics and chemistry are in control and, since we are made of chemicals, we are ultimately controlled by them. But, he admits that we don't yet know all of these laws and, even if we did, we would not have any idea of why they are what they are. Maybe with some super duper, advanced, grand unified, 28 dimensional string theory someday we will manage to boil it all down to a single equation from which all other possible equations can be derived by a super computer somewhere (they're making them in China now, right?). BUT, where did that ultimate physical law come from? Maybe, like God, it has to exist or you don't have a universe filled with energy / mass and, since we do have a universe filled with energy / mass it must exist. Perhaps it is both its own effect AND its own cause and thereby eternal.
If that is true, then, ultimately, all reality is like a dog chasing its own tail. Each effect is the result of a cause and each cause the result of some other effect. The entire cosmos is then, ultimately, just one giant perpetual motion machine with energy / mass in constant eternal circulation. When one thinks about it, Bessler's wheels are actually a metaphor for this vast process. His wheels were actually small models of the cosmos as a whole and the fact that he would NOT just easily reveal their secrets to others was the REAL reason that he was persecuted. His knowledge of their operation actually elevated him to the level of a god and his fellow humans (with the exception of Karl) just could not stand that and were the ones who were truly driven insane by it...insane with envy that is.
Want to know why you, dear lurker, are so obsessed with discovering Bessler's secret? Let me tell you why.
It has little if anything to do with scientific curiosity or fulfilling your rags to riches fantasies or helping to power the world with "alternative" energy. It has far more to do with achieving the SAME status as Bessler did before you die off and are eventually forgotten FOREVER. YOU want to have that secret he had, YOU want to feel like you've captured a tiny slice of the universal process and locked it up securely inside of your wheel's drum. And, YOU want to be remembered 300 years hence (actually forever!) on whatever will pass for the internet then.
Yes, your motives are certainly selfish in one sense, But, in another sense you want to be "justly" compensated for all of those lonely hours you spent toiling away on wheels that did not have a snowflake's chance in hell of working.
I hope that when (really IF!) you ever find the secret that you will share it with the rest of us and not let it, yet again, be lost to the world. We all want to join you up there at the top of Jacob's ladder. Being a solitary god can be lonely.
Doug you wrote;
ReplyDelete"Anon, no, neither is in control.
If you must have something in control, it would be gravity interestingly enough, wouldn't it?"
Anon 90217 writes, wouldn't you think your DNA has some level of control? It set your height, hair color, eye color, etc. etc. etc. In fact, I strongly argue science is all about finding the CONTROL mechanisms of nature. Astrology has absolutley nothing to do with us having control so your statement was in error. And I seriously doubt based on your comments that you know much of what these occult sciences are really all about.
That's the spirit John - 2012 would be a very good year for the re-discovery of the Bessler Wheel. It doesn't matter one bit whether Venus is transiting the Sun, or the Mayan "predictions" are correct or not, Nibiru is "hiding" behind the Sun or not, or even whether there's any planetary alignment. I have little doubt the world will simply keep revolving as it has been for quite some time, very reliably, and we humans will still be here, confronted with the same (and growing) problems as ever.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, in January I'll start construction of the full scale armature mechanism, as well as some other concepts -maybe not directly related to Bessler but interesting nevertheless- including a full-size test of my beloved 2 and 3 stage oscillators. I expect at least some 300 watts from the latter. It will be an interesting year for sure!
And I hope it will be a GREAT year for you all.
Hey Andre, good luck with your machines.
ReplyDelete90217, isn't science just the discovery of the geometry of the universe? The math that explains why things are the way they are, what the numerical relations are between different things? The offspring of the mathematics is mechanics, the practical application of the math.
DNA are strings of complex chemicals, like tg alluded to. The chemicals originated in the stars. DNA has no more control over things than the stars do, they just do what chemicals do.
I don't believe I said anything about astrology, I' m not sure what you mean.
TG said: "Each effect is the result of a cause and each cause the result of some other effect."
That's a good technoguyism.
What were the planets like on 6 Jun 1712 or thereabouts.
ReplyDelete@ Doug
ReplyDeleteLooks like this blog of JC's is a good opportunity to wax philosophical.
Yep, I have no problem with each cause producing one or more effects which them, themselves, each become the cause of one or more effects. Sort of like a causality chain reaction. I also have no problem imagining all of this continuously looping around upon itself to create an infinite cosmos. I mean this basic process would have had to be going on Bessler's wheels with each rotation.
The problem I struggle with is whether or not it is possible for an effect to be its OWN cause? If so, then logically it would be "independent" of the rest of the cosmos and have to be eternal.
I once took a philosophy course and the professor told us that at the end of the course, he would reveal the "ultimate" question that philosophers must deal with. I made damn sure I didn't miss THAT lecture!
The question is: "Why should there be ANYTHING at all?" In other words WHY do we have a cosmos. Why is it not just one infinite void without any energy / mass bouncing around in it? Seems like that would certainly make things a whole lot simpler. No need for galaxies, stars, planets, intelligent life, science, etc.
Well, maybe someday we'll have some answers that make sense.
TG , you said " and each cause the result of some other effect".
ReplyDeleteA cause can't be the result of an effect. Your philisophical wax is waning.
Doug wrote:
ReplyDelete"90217, isn't science just the discovery of the geometry of the universe?"
Only in part. Geomitry is what is fixed. The universe is in motion in all its parts. It's the study of both of these together, the control mechanisms. That's why science has a hard time with what they label pseudoscience, because they don't know what or if the control mechanisms are.
So Doug to further my point. DNA is an example of something that has control. It's a control mechanism. When you say control your thinking of free will. When I say control or control mechanisms I'm meaning guidance systems that lead to a destination or outcome.
ReplyDeleteDoug wrote:
ReplyDelete"TG , you said " and each cause the result of some other effect".
A cause can't be the result of an effect. Your philisophical wax is waning. "
Of course it can. ALL causes are ultimately the result of an effect when you think about it. Otherwise you would have causes arising out of nothing.
Consider. A fusion reaction inside of our Sun releases energy / mass that turns into various photons of electromagnetic energy. Some of them make their way to Earth. Some of those photons of radiation land on a blacktop road. The road heats up. The hot road heats the tires of a car driving over the road. The hot tires heat the air inside of them and its pressure rises. Because the tires are harder they transmit more bumps and vibrations to the interior of the car. As a result the driver's cup of coffee is knocked out of its cup holder and lands on his foot. The hot coffee burns his leg. He screams and loses control of the car. The car smashes into an apple tree and sends a shock wave through its branches. Some of its apples' stems break and their apples plunge to Earth. One of the apples hits a squirrel on top of his head and knocks him out cold.
Here we have an unbroken "chain" of causes each one of which creates an effect which then becomes another cause in the chain..
My philosophy continues to wax.
Astrology has absolutely no bearing on our lives.
ReplyDeleteThe only body that has any effect on nature is the moon's gravity and of course the earth's attitude to the sun which gives us our seasons.
I thought this blog was about the wheel and its mechanisms,not a general debate contest.
Now can we stay focused please?!
Also remember that Isaac Newton once rebuked one of his fellow scientists regarding astrology, saying "Sir, I have studied the subject, you have not!"
ReplyDeleteHear,hear!
ReplyDeleteSorry, Trevor. TG throws stuff up in here and somebody has to clean him up.
ReplyDeleteTG, the events between a cause and effect are called intermediate, or intervening factors (causes). Did you take the speed reading course at the same time as the philosophy course?
Physics considers the four fundamental forces to be the ultimate cause of every event.
anon, wouldn't you then agree that gravity controls the motion of the universe, and ultimately, everything in it?
Scientists know what the control mechanism is, but not how it operates. It has a name, a formula, but no detectable propagator. One of the great philosophical questions: Why does mass attract? For physicists, how does it attract? And you really have to wonder, if the universe began from all the matter in a dense, hot state, why did it expand in the first place, along with its own space? Was it a special case for a black hole? Was it from a force we can't even feel anymore?
Thats very interesting Doug,..I would like,if I may,answer your question concerning gravity,since you posed it.What is gravity?,..well I feel that seperate bodies of mass cause tension (electro-magnetic)on the aether(dark matter if you like),and it is the tendancy of matter to congrigate to seek equalibrium to relieve that tension.A little bit like bubbles on the surface of water.The surface tension brings them together to form one big bubble.
ReplyDeleteJust a pet theory,..what do you think? Sorry to drift off the subject of the wheel but it all has to do with gravity.
Trevor, that's one way of looking at it. Two bodies with their mass a distance apart form an unstable system (tension); a difference of energy in the case of lifting weight, and the attraction seeks stability (equilibrium ). Dark matter hasn't been detected (yet), so the jury is still out on whether or not it could be the medium gravity operates in, or if it operates similar to electromagnetism.
ReplyDeleteTrevor wrote:
ReplyDelete"I thought this blog was about the wheel and its mechanisms, not a general debate contest.
Now can we stay focused please?!"
I, too, mistakenly thought that was the case. But with neither JC or others willing to share their ideas about wheel construction, the conversation has quickly degenerated to various tangential issues and pure DISTRACTIOJNS as well as occasional name calling and character assasinations. But, then again, the web is full of such nonsense. Why should this blog be any different?
@ Doug
Okay, you're right. No effect can ever be the cause of another effect. The next time the heat goes off in my house because the pilot light on the furnace went out, I'll just remember your "Dougism" and tell myself that that effect has nothing to do with my shivering limbs and chattering teeth! LOL!
You also wrote:
"Physics considers the four fundamental forces to be the ultimate cause of every event"
The only problem with this pronouncement is that they never explain WHAT causes these four "fundamental" forces. The truth is, despite the recent String Theory hype, that they haven't the faintest idea. And, of course, neither did Einstein or Newton for that matter.
So, you all want to get back to wheel mechanics again? Great, so do I. Here's a question to get us started:
What role do you think the springs played in Bessler's wheels. More specifically, do you think that they were CRITICAL to making his wheels run? (Obviously, if THE correct answer turns out to be "yes", then that means ALL of those OB PM gravity wheel mobilists out there who are NOT using springs in their designs haven't got a chance in hell of success! How truly sad that would be...)
I can answer that one Doug,..The springs were there to provide,in combination with mass enertia,a state of momentary
ReplyDeleteweightlessness,which provides a window for the mechanism to store it in the form of height.
The key factor being that the weights can maintain their oscilation for the next round.
@ Trevor
ReplyDeleteThat was me that raised the issue of the springs, not Doug.
In MT 17 Bessler seems to suggest that springs can NOT be used to lift ascending side weighted levers.
Yet, immediately after, in MT 18 he seems to suggest that, indeed, springs do play SOME role in lifting the weights. Actually in MT 18 the levers themselves ARE the springs!
Bessler generally avoids talking about springs, I believe, because he knew that if he even mentioned the word, people would automatically assume he was using the energy stored in a spiral type mainspring to run his wheels via a clockwork mechanism of some sort.
Trevor wrote:
ReplyDelete"Trevor said...
Astrology has absolutely no bearing on our lives.
The only body that has any effect on nature is the moon's gravity and of course the earth's attitude to the sun which gives us our seasons.
I thought this blog was about the wheel and its mechanisms,not a general debate contest.
Now can we stay focused please?! "
Then why are you commenting on a subject that you have absolutely no idea what it is really all about!? That is a retorical question Trev. I know why of course it is because for the very reason that you don't understand it, it offends you. My advice to you is, don't be a hypocrite. Don't bring up a point of debate in your one hand and with the other say stay on subject, least your glass house becometh smashed.
Stay on subject Trevor.
23 December 2011 05:50
Great Bear said...
"Also remember that Isaac Newton once rebuked one of his fellow scientists regarding astrology, saying "Sir, I have studied the subject, you have not!"
NO HE DID NOT! That comment was in Newton defending alchemy, which he wass a practitioner of. Way to bend the facts, your the epitome of why one should not go looking for facts on the internet.
"Physics considers the four fundamental forces to be the ultimate cause of every event.
ReplyDeleteanon, wouldn't you then agree that gravity controls the motion of the universe, and ultimately, everything in it? "
Considering the other 3 forces aren't gravity this is kind of a contradiction isn't it Doug? In order to circumvent you from snaking around it I'm going to be very blunt. You made a mistake. Now will you admit it?
Dooug you wrote;
ReplyDelete"And you really have to wonder, if the universe began from all the matter in a dense, hot state, why did it expand in the first place, along with its own space? Was it a special case for a black hole? Was it from a force we can't even feel anymore?"
Good last question.
Now I'm really confused,..Which anon is which?
ReplyDeleteI am really trying to stay on the subject but I find these arguments about physics irresistable.
Techno,..Did not Bessler say he did use springs but not in way they implied,which was to wind up the wheel.
Now Anon,.. to say that I don't know what I am talking about puts you on dangerous ground.
My categorical statement about astrology was based on a solid spiritual experience which confirmed to me that astrology and all the other heathen religions are futile and vain.
Now lets be truthfull,who on this blog has revealed more about the possible mechanics of the wheel.
I have virtually given away the secret but I am continually being ignored because you guys are so busy trying to upstage one another with your knowledge of physics.
Anyway have your cosy little debate,I think I can predict who is going to solve this wheel.
The winner is going to be John or myself.
@ Trevor
ReplyDeleteYes, Bessler admitted to using springs, but does not elaborate upon the subject. It would have been nice if he had said that his wheels would not work without them which is what I HIGHLY suspect to be the case.
Maybe just having the magic lever design and the Connectedness Principle are not enough by themselves. Maybe that extra something that finally leads to a working wheel involves applying spring tension to the weights or to their levers in a special way. Why else would he have made that cryptic remark in MT 18's notes?
Well, I'm not an expert on astrology, but there ARE alot of people who swear by it and use its predictions in their daily lives. I say if it works for a person and gives them some peace of mind, then they should stick with it.
It's very easy and even tempting to sneer at things which are not immediately understandable. Just look at the way Bessler was treated for proof of that.
For example, perhaps the greatest physicist of the 19th century, Lord Kelvin, after being told about the discovery of X-rays, roared with laughter and immediately pronounced it as the GREATEST hoax he had ever heard of! He was, of course, dead wrong.
Maybe someday a physically acceptable basis will be found for the various New Age type subjects. It wouldn't surprise me in the least. In the meantime, I try to maintain an open mind and research these subjects as best I can. We certainly don't, as yet, have ALL of the answers about them. Or, as one of Shakespeare's characters said:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, then are dreamt of in your philosophy."
That's as true now as when those words were written.
Trevor wrote;
ReplyDelete"Now Anon,.. to say that I don't know what I am talking about puts you on dangerous ground.
My categorical statement about astrology was based on a solid spiritual experience which confirmed to me that astrology and all the other heathen religions are futile and vain.
Now lets be truthfull,who on this blog has revealed more about the possible mechanics of the wheel.
I have virtually given away the secret but I am continually being ignored because you guys are so busy trying to upstage one another with your knowledge of physics.
Anyway have your cosy little debate,I think I can predict who is going to solve this wheel.
The winner is going to be John or myself."
Trevor, if you even believe part of this, and I can only assume you do since you wrote it, then tenderly but firmly I want to tell you, consider yourself deluded. There is a term for it. It's called delusions of grandeur. I won't discount your mystical experience, because I can't, it is yours and without knowing what it was about I have no way to comment. But consider, there have been many that thought they have had some great revelation revealed to them, but are in fact nuttier than a fruitcake. There is always a single telling feature if one has had a true insite with the cosmos and one who's misunderstood what has happened to them. The one who misunderstands won't pause to consider that they very possibly dont have the full picture. The fact that you'v said that because I've questioned you it has put me on dangerous ground indicates, screams if you will, that your ego is dancing with the demons of dreams. We can test if if you will. I doubt your dangerous comment Trevor. I laugh in its face. Now what's going to happen?
Who among us has not read the Bessler literature and suddenly had a "revelation" after we noticed some little odd thing that caught our attention. Then we instantly thought we KNEW the secret of Bessler's wheels and had better keep quiet about it lest we be robbed of THE secret before we could test it out in our next build. It's happened to me so many times that I now consider it as a sort of "occupational hazard" of being a mobilist! In fact, I've know people that got so fired up with a design that they stumbled upon that they were even thinking of going ahead and spending thousands to patent it BEFORE they actually even built it and tested it! Now that's what I call a revelation!
ReplyDeleteWhat I would really like know is what that "invigorating" dream was that helped Bessler discover the secret of PM. For some reason, I can't get it out of my mind that it involved the "vision" that Jacob had in the Old Testament (the one involving the ladder to heaven and the angels). Hmmm...maybe I'll reread that again...I feel another "revelation" coming on. LOL!
Your TGness,
ReplyDeleteIf the pilot light goes out, that would be the cause of your blue lips. The heat not coming on, because the pilot went out, is an intervening cause, not an effect. The chain is a causal chain, your teeth are the effect.
The cause of the four fundamental forces is the dense ,superhot state of the universe right after the big bang. The forces were unified at that split second in time at incomprehensible energy and temperature. Immediately they formed into the 4 forces.
Anon , i was saying that gravity was responsible for the motion of the universe and could be considered to be the control mechanism because you made the point that the geometry of the universe was fixed and the universe was in motion in all of its parts. The other 3 forces are responsible for everything else in the universe ,except for its motion. Yes?
Springs in bessler's wheels were probably there for ignition, to prime the pump.
I seem to recall wolff saying after the wheel (meresburg) was on new supports he saw him reach in and push down on an iron spring and it made a loud noise as it expanded upwards. Springs are relatively slow compared to gravity, i'm not so sure they were part of the mechanisms. Speed , and timing of moving parts , would seem to be paramount in perpetual motion
This is just the response I expected from you since you threw the first insult.
ReplyDeleteRemember one thing,..God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise,comprende.
John,..I would like to re-assure you that you have nothing to fear concerning the rapture.It is a total mis-interpretation of scripture.
ReplyDeleteActually the reverse is true.
God says I will utterly remove the wicked from the earth and the righteous who remain will inherit their wealth.
So in a nutshell the saved will remain on the earth to rule as it is in heaven but you must be sure you are in right standing with God.
Jesus said I am the way and no man cometh to the Father but by me.
Doug wrote:
ReplyDelete"If the pilot light goes out, that would be the cause of your blue lips. The heat not coming on, because the pilot went out, is an intervening cause, not an effect."
But the heat not coming on was an effect of the pilot blowing out and that effect (the heat not coming one) was then one of the prior causes in the chain of causes leading up to my chilliness.
That incident with the spring snapping when the lever slipped out of Bessler's hand as he reinstalled the weights in the Merseberg wheel is a VERY important one. It demonstrates that the levers were indeed under some sort of constant spring tension. This seems to agree with the "principle" which Bessler said should not be "scorned" in MT 18. It tends to make me think that EACH lever within a wheel had to have its own spring attached to it which was also then attached to part of the drum. IF this is the case, then the mobilist attempting to duplicate Bessler's design will have to try many different spring tensions / locations until he finds the one that turns a non-running OB PM gravity wheel into a runner. Sadly, most inventors are not comfortable working with springs and probably won't even try including them in their designs. If they are critical to making a working wheel, then those who do no use them have automatically excluded themselves from EVER achieving success.
I still haven't checked out Jacob's vision, but I vaguely remember it having something to do with angels ascending and descending a ladder. Hmmm...maybe there's a connection with the wheels which contained ascending and descending weights?!
That feeling of impending revelation is growing stronger within me!
Yes Doug I agree,..actually if springs are used correctly they can provide an extreemly free oscilation which lasts long.
ReplyDeleteIf you think of it springs are composed of millions of friction free molecular magnets.What better way is there to privide for a friction free movement.
@Anonymous said
ReplyDelete"NO HE DID NOT! That comment was in Newton defending alchemy"
Please qualify your statement with a reference. I've studied many books where this is attributed him - rebuking Halley, the astronomer. If you'd discovered some other reference where he also says this about alchemy, I'd be interested to know where.
Your TGness,
ReplyDeleteThe heat not coming doesn't remain an effect in the chain of events after your experience becomes the effect. The last event in a chain is the effect. If you weren't in the house when the heat didn't come on, then the heat not blowing in the house would be the last event, and the effect. When you got back home, and began to feel how cold the house was, the heat not having turned on becomes the (intermediate) cause; your experience becomes the effect link in the chain.
Flowchart
Cause -> intermediate cause(s)-> effect
Now do you understand? Everyone else seems to understand.
There isn't any indication from wolff's statement that bessler was pushing down a lever that slipped out of his hand. Actually, the quote is
"When he put the wheel onto another support and reinstalled the weights in their previous positions, he pushed down on an iron spring that gave a loud noise as it expanded upwards. I therefore presume that there is no doubt that the wheel is moved by an internal source of power, but we cannot necessarily assume that it is perpetual."
So he pushed down on the spring after the weights were installed.
If each lever had a spring, he would have had to push down 5 or 8 springs, not one. The fact that he did push one is what led wolff, I think, to write the next sentence, 'but we cannot necessarily assume that it is perpetual'.
Given that the long term demos up to that point were only 30 minutes, it's a valid criticism, and taken together, prompted the 54 day test.
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteI think you're using the wrong flow chart. Here's the one you should be using:
cause > effect = cause > effect = cause > effect = cause > effect = etc.
The nice thing about this correct flow chart is that it allows one to connect the ends of a chain so as to form a loop. These loops can be either self reinforcing (if energy / mass flows into the system) or self extinquishing (if energy / mass flows out of the system).
You quote Wagner, thusly:
"When he put the wheel onto another support and reinstalled the weights in their previous positions, he pushed down on an iron spring that gave a loud noise as it expanded upwards. I therefore presume that there is no doubt that the wheel is moved by an internal source of power,"
The two questions one reading this should immediately ask himself are: "Did Wagner actually SEE the spring in question?" and "Did Bessler DIRECTLY handle the spring?". The most likely answers to both questions are "No" because Bessler worked on the side of the wheel hidden from the witnesses. Wagner is ASSUMING that, because some visible portion of Bessler's arm was moving downward just prior to the noise, that that must have meant that his hand was pushing down on a spring. As far as the second question is concerned, in reality, one hardly ever pushes down on or pulls on a spring directly. Rather, they push or pull some PART attached to the spring. In the case of Bessler's wheels those parts were the levers inside of the drums. Wagner ASSUMES that the spring was located BELOW the end of the lever that Bessler was trying to attach the weight to and thus the spring was being compressed. However, the spring could just have well have been located ABOVE the lever and was thus being stretched as Bessler pulled down upon the lever to which it was attached.
Imagine the following scenario:
The Merseburg wheel that then contained NO weights had just been moved to its new set of upright supports which were located at one end of the room. The witnesses were located at the other end of the room and could only view one side of the wheel. Bessler then went behind the wheel and worked on its hidden side. He had to install 16 weights (total weight = 16 wts x 4 lb / wt = 64 lb) back into the drum's TWO sub wheels from that location. To complete this task in only 30 minutes, he had to be able to reinstall weights at the average rate of one every 1.875 minutes. This can readily be done if he had the weights in a box on a table next to him and the weights were held onto the ends of the levers via some sort of easily worked mechanism.
PART II:
ReplyDeleteHe needed to insert two weights at a time at each of the eight locations around the drum and began by attaching a weight onto the end of the front side subwheel's 9 o'clock lever (thus Bessler was located on the left side of the drum as viewed from the location of the witnesses on the other side of the wheel) which was located just above his head (perhaps a blindfolded assistant held the other side of the drum to prevent its rotation while Bessler did this). Bessler, being right handed, reached through the various interconnecting cords in the way and pulled this lever down and away from its rim stop with his right hand so that he would have some space around the lever's end to work in. This action then stretched the spring out that was located ABOVE the lever and which attached it to the drum (this spring normally held the unweighted lever against a stop inside the drum). It is this arm motion which Wagner saw at the time from his location on the other side of the drum.
While he held the end of the lever down with his right hand, Bessler then leaned to his left side in order to reach one of the sixteen 4 lb cylindrical weights which he had inside of a wooden box that sat on a table behind the wheel and was hidden from the view of the witnesses. It is at this point that he developed what is commonly known as a case of "butter fingers".
From handling the lubricated levers and axle pivots during the removal of the drum from the first set of uprights, his hands were coated with a thin layer of grease / oil and he lost his grip on the lever that he was holding in his right hand. That lever was then pulled violently upward by the contracting spring attached to it and its end slammed into some stop within the drum. The sound from that then passed through the thin fabric covering of the front face of the drum and startled the witnesses.
Yes, this is probably exactly what happened.
Wagner's presumption that this incident indicated that the wheels were powered by the springs (there would have been 16 of them inside the Merseburg wheel's drum!, one for each lever) was NOT justified. Like most, just the hint of a spring being used had falsely convinced him that Bessler's wheels were merely windup toys. They most certainly were not!
Happy holidays everyone...
Trevor wrote;
ReplyDelete"Trevor said...
This is just the response I expected from you since you threw the first insult.
Remember one thing,..God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise,comprende"
LOL, then what's that say for the idiots Trevor? And yes I'm talking to you.
When you can learn to reason instead of misquoting the bible I'm all ears.
Great Bear, since you took the statement out of context you are. the one who needs to back it up. Why should I do your work for you? I'll say this much. I research. I know where that quote comes from and I have NEVER seen it applied in the way you used it. You need to know a few things. 1. Newtomn spent more time in Alchemy pursuits than anything else. This is a fact even though it typically wasn't taught in school. Because it is not understood in its proper context it is seen as a bit of an embarressment. 2. astrology plays a very heavy role in alchemy. He would never have ridiculed astrology, even though, like alchemy, he never talked of it. This is a quote from wikipedia. Whether or not you accept it is up to you, whether or not you want to do the research into his alchemy studies and alchemy in general, is up to you.
ReplyDelete"I have studied these things — you have not.
Reported as Newton's response, whenever Edmond Halley would say anything disrespectful of religion, by Sir David Brewster in The Life of Sir Isaac Newton (1831). This has often been quoted in recent years as having been a statement specifically defending Astrology. Newton wrote extensively on the importance of Prophecy, and studied Alchemy, but there is little evidence that he took favourable notice of Astrology. Brewster attributes the anecdote to the astronomer Nevil Maskelyne who passed it on to Oxford professor Stephen Peter Rigaud."
NOW, before you go twisting this quote out of context, note that it does not say he spoke disfavorably of astrology. I'll make the 2 points again. Newton put more time into alchemy than anything else-fact. Astrology plays a great role in alchemy.
By the Way Trevor,
ReplyDelete"And the wise shall shine like stars in the firmament".
And lest we forget, Newton was also a theologian and, like Bessler, a very religious man.
ReplyDeleteIn his article "Famous Scientists Who Believed in God" Rich Deem wrote:
"In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding from the Bible God's plan for history. He did a lot of work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology very important. In his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."
In my Dec. 24th two part comment above, I mistakenly attributed the quote about the spring noise Bessler's Merseburg wheel made to Wagner. Of course, it should have been attributed to Christian Wolff instead. Sorry about that. I had been thinking about some of Wagner's criticisms of Bessler at the time and that influenced my comment.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way Anon,..The wisedom he was refferring to was God's wisdom not Man's.
ReplyDelete