To my small but loyal band of readers and to the much larger number of anons who, according to my blog statistics, drop in, in their hundreds each week, to test the water ....
Have a great holiday and please accept my best wishes for a happy, healthy and prosperous new year.
As technoguy said in a comment,
I have a feeling of impending revelation growing stronger within me!
Thanks for that thought, technoguy, I share your anticipation, although I take the meaning of the word 'revelation' as ...the act of revealing or disclosing the internal workings of my finished Bessler's wheel to the whole world!
JC
Merry Christmas to you and the family, John, and to everyone here at the board.
ReplyDeleteThanks to everyone for all the great reading.
Hutch (a fellow builder and lurker)
Yes John have a blessed Christmas!,..And to all the gang as well!
ReplyDelete@ JC
ReplyDeleteHappiest of the holiday season to you and your family, John, as well as to everyone else who visits this blog or contributes.
My "revelation' just concerns Jacob's Ladder and its possible connection to the "invigorating" dream that Bessler alluded to (I'll have alot more to say about this later...still researching it).
Needless to say that We can all use as much invigoration as we can get as we struggle ever onward with the daunting quest to unlock the carefully hidden secrets of Bessler's wheels. This blog helps provide that invigoration.
Merry Christmas everyone!
Have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year,
ReplyDeleteto all of you.
And stop dreaming,start building.
Happy new year to all of us, small and a little bit crazy community of mobilists :)
ReplyDeleteMerry..happy for all.
ReplyDeleteIs Gravity=Energy? Predicted to exist by Albert Einstein in 1916 on the basis of his theory of general relativity,[1] gravitational waves theoretically transport energy as gravitational radiation.(wikipedia)
Anon,..You should not even be allowed on this blog to freely throw insults since you have not got the guts to sign your name.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way I don't take Bible out of contect.That quote,'God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise'is meant for the interlectuals who think they can use reason to discern what is being said.
It has to be done by revelation,spiritually.God's ways are not man's ways.
John,..There really needs to be a deterant for these anons who think they have free reign to post a lot trash.
ReplyDeleteI don't mind being challenged,but then the person should at least have the manners to sign their name.
Can they not be vetted in terms of their namelessness.
I sign my name because I have full confidence in what I say,and if I am proved wrong I am ready to admit it.
I continue to research into what Bessler's "invigorating" dream might have been and, more and more, it seems to me to most likely have a link to the Jacob's Ladder story in the Bible (which you can read about in Genesis 28:10-22).
ReplyDeleteThere have been many interpretations of the symbolic nature of Jacob's dream down through the centuries mainly due to numerological analysis of the Hebrew words used in that passage. Bessler, being both a numerologist and immersed in Judeo mysticism would have been well aware of these interpretations and, I believe, the dream Jacob had probably strongly influenced the dreams that Bessler had with regard to PM. How important was this OT story of Jacob to Bessler?
Consider that, according to the the Jewish historian Jophesus, ancient Jewish mystics had already determined that there had to be exactly 72 rungs (or steps if one translates the word for ladder as stairs) in this ladder that a group of "angels" constantly climbed and descended in Jacob's dream. Coincidentally, they also determined that there were also a total of 72 names for God.
Now also consider that both the Merseburg and Weissenstein wheels were 12 feet in diameter. That means that they were 6 feet in radius. Since there are 12 inches in a foot, that means their radii were both 6 ft x 12 in/ft = 72 inches! Bessler had incorporated the number of steps in Jacob's ladder into the dimensions of his wheels!
Coincidence? I don't think so.
And, of course, the diameter of these wheels was 144 inches and 144 is yet another mystical number found in the Bible (for example, in Revelation we learn that, at the end of the world only 144,000 people were supposed to be be saved!).
Technoguy where's your proof by passage that Bessler's number codes in his works had a numerlogical significance?
ReplyDeleteAnon 101.
John, was it true that Bessler's first wheel was just over three feet and 2 inches thick? Do you know how powerful it was? Did it do a load test?
ReplyDelete@ Anon 101
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to Bessler's use of various Biblical measurements in the construction of his wheels, one will find ZERO "proof by passage" in his writings. But, the real proof lies in the improbablity of certain measurements and ratio continuously reappearing in his inventions as noted by witnesses.
For example, his weissenstein wheel was 18 inches thick and its sides were covered with "oiled" cloth (most likely dyed cloth) which prevented witnesses from seeing the inner mechanics of the wheel. In a sense the cloth coverings on the faces of the wheel's drum acted like a curtain to obsure the view of what was inside of the wheel from those who had not paid Bessler's price to view it.
I find it rather interesting that when one considers another famous curtain in the Bible, he learns about the giant curtain inside the Temple in Jerusalem which blocked the contents and activities that took place inside of the "Sanctum Sactorum" (or "HOly of Holies") from view by those who were not part of the sacred priesthood that had the actual knowledge of what went on in there.
That curtain, BTW, was also 18 inches thick which is the same thickness as the Weissenstein wheel's drum!
Again I ask, could this just be another mere coincidence? No way!
I don't see any tasty nuts around here.
ReplyDeleteThese look a bit small; they aren't even nuts, really.
John, what units did bessler use to measure with, and how do they convert to feet and inches?
The Leipzig and ell.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ell
Thanks anon.
ReplyDeletehere is a page that lists the Leipzig ell as 68.88 cm.
http://pierre-marteau.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leipzig:Measures
68.88 cm is about 27 inches. their source is a book from 1716.
Here is a thread at besslerwheel that discusses the length of ells; John had some input:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=895&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=ell+drawing+scale&start=0
There might have been a hamlet in Germany that used an ell that converted to 24 inches, but Bessler's ell looks like it was around 22 inches.
Here is a shorter url:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=895&highlight=
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteActually, I only release a few nuts here that have been laying around for awhile and are starting to go rancid. I keep the really fresh, nutritious ones for my own exclusive use at this time (Mmmm...how VERY tasty they are!). But, take heart, ALL will eventually be revealed! LOL!
Yes, one can make himself nutty (pun intended) trying to figure out which of the many possible ells Bessler used. And, he had plenty of choices available to him ranging from about 22 to 27 British inches per ell. I am quite convinced that he ALWAYS used an ell that was equal to exactly 24 British inches. Here's why:
First, and most importantly, Bessler was a numerologist and student of Biblical prophecy. A 6 ell diameter wheel would, if he selected 1 ell = 24 British inches, have a diameter of 144 inches and a radius of 72 inches. As I mentioned above, these numbers, 72 and 144, would have had very special significance to Bessler. A wheel that is exactly 12 feet in diameter also contains the number 12 which is the original number of apostles that Jesus gathered together and as such is a particularly desirable number to use for an invention credited to divine inspiration. Such numbers are also whole numbers and numberologists tend to prefer to work with these simpler, "purer" numbers.
Second, one of Bessler's "rags to riches" fantasies involved selling his wheels to the Royal Society over in London. He knew that if he used equivalents that looked familiar to them such as a wheel exactly 12 British feet in diameter, this would tend to lower their suspicions about a "foreign" invention for which they were being asked to pay a huge sum of money.
So, each of us is free to select what measurement system we believe Bessler used for his wheels. However, if you do not select the correct one, you will make little if any progress in any numerological analysis of its design that you attempt. I am very confident that I have made the correct choice.
Trevor, sorry but what I mean with this quote of Einstein gravity wave is contradiction between "gravity is conservative force" and "Gravity wave is energy"
ReplyDeleteIf gravitywave is energy then perpetual wheel is still waiting antoher Bessler(Oryffere).
Anon 202
I'm even more certain the dimensions of any of the wheels was a minor concern.
ReplyDeleteMost likely,they could have been easier and cheaper to construct because those were stock sizes from the mill. Secondly, there isn't any indication from bessler that the dimensions were crucial to operation; he seems to go out of his way to never mention it.
Finally, If there was a perpetual principle of leverage, it would work with any combination of lengths, the lever law has been around for awhile.
Sorry Jacob, numerology is just another superstition to a real mobilist.
Doug wrote:
ReplyDelete"I'm even more certain the dimensions of any of the wheels was a minor concern."
I quite agree (how did that happen!). The external dimensions of the wheel are not critical to its operation, but they certainly do indicate Bessler's obsession with numbers and Bible prophecies.
Once one gets inside the wheel, however, angles and measurements DO become VERY critical. The "magic" levers Bessler used had to have a certain size and configuration (I avoid using the word "shape" here to prevent misunderstanding) and the interconnecting ropes between the levers had to attach to them at specific points IF the CoM of a wheel's eight driving weights was to always "dwell" on the drum's descending side during wheel rotation.
If you really think he had a magic combination of levers and weight, you really need to study leverage. It's one of the most basic laws of physics. Here is a link:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever#Law_of_the_lever
I asked you Tech, where did Bessler say he was a numerologist? And dont go saying, well he did this and said this, he MUST be this. He admited a lot of things, including using black magic. Not what you'r saying.
ReplyDeleteBy the way the Midrash says 70 and other sources say 7, or other numbers. And the bible lists none of them.
So, each of us is free to select what measurement system we believe Bessler used for his wheels
Sure, because accuracy doesn't matter when trying to fit a theory into fact. Bessler was a proud German and there was a specific unit of measurement back then.
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link, but I've already spent much time studying the dynamics of levers. If one studies MT carefully, he will note that Bessler uses two basic types of levers: those with rigid arms and those that use pulleys with wrap around ropes whose centers act as fulcrums to achieve the same effect.
Pulley type levers allow a descending weight to more smoothly and continuously lift an ascending weight, but are more difficult to install in a drum's narrow internal space and pose a problem in terms of keeping their ropes in place. It is for this reason that ALL of the levers in Bessler's wheels were 1st class type levers. By a VERY careful design of these levers, he was able to satisfactorily compensate for the uneven transfer of energy / mass associated with them as they shift through a large angle.
@ Anon
Bessler does mention that he studied the letters or "hieroglyphics" of the Hebrew alphabet. As most students of Bible prophecy know, each letter of that alphabet had a numerical value associated with it (this was because there were no numeral symbols in ancient Hebrew) and for mystical encryption purposes names were selected so that the numerical sums of their letters would have a certain value. Bessler as a student of judeo mysticism would have been well aware of this system and this would have certainly qualified him as a "numerologist".
Here's a link to a site that discusses various aspects of judeo mysticism which you might find of interest and goes into the matter of how many steps were in Jacob's Ladder.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&gbv=2&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=869l22403l0l22637l73l53l3l22l0l0l749l5424l4-3.6.1l10l0&q=cache:_ANBF7a4DOsJ:http://www.atam.org/JacobsLadder.html+jewish+mysticism,+number+of+steps+in+jacob%27s+ladder&ct=clnk
Here is a shorter url if tg's doesn't open
ReplyDeletewww.atam.org/JacobsLadder.html
I guess because a wheel allows leverage through 360 degrees that it makes it seem magical. I'm just not that naive.
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteDon't think of Bessler's wheels in terms of 360° rotations. Rather, think of them in terms of nice little bite sized 45° increments of rotation.
Imagine that the eight weighted levers of a one directional wheel are, at the beginning of the 45° increment of wheel rotation, arranged "one against another" (thus, actually carefully counter balanced) so that their CoM is located on one side of the wheel's axle. The levers are actually in a state of equilibrium in this starting orientation and maintained in it by a system of interconnecting cords.
When the wheel is released, it will, of course, begin to rotate as the CoM of its weights attempts to swing down below the axle. Now for the "magical" part. As rotation occurs, the weighted levers will automatically shift about so as to maintain the CoM of their weights at its starting location. By the time that the wheel has rotated through a full 45° of rotation, the eight weighted levers will be back to having the exact same orientation that they had at the beginning of the 45° increment of rotation and the CoM of their weights will be at its starting position.
During the time that the wheel underwent the 45° increment of rotation, its ascending side weights followed a path that was slightly shorter than that followed by the descending side weights. This automatically caused the ascending side weights to rise vertically at a slightly slower rate than the descending side weights dropped vertically (this is required since there must always be four weights on each side of the wheel). Thus, during the 45° increment of wheel rotation, the descending side weights lost energy / mass at a slightly greater rate than the rate at which the ascending side weights regained it. That extra energy / mass lost by the wheel's descending side weights then became available to both accelerate the wheel as a whole and, if conditions permitted, to operate any outside devices attached to the wheel. This "free" energy that was outputted was not really free, however. It has to be paid for by an energy / mass loss (in the picogram range) of each weight after it had completed a full 360° trip around the wheel.
I'm sure that I make all of this sound so easy that one might wonder why no one after Bessler figured out how to do it. The daunting reality is that are probably tens of thousands of ways to interconnect a set of eight weighted levers within a drum, but only ONE of them will do what I describe above.
Are you up to the challenge of finding the Connected Principle that will result in a genuine WORKING PM gravity wheel? If so, then you'd better be prepared to try many, many, MANY different interconnection schemes before you find THE one that Bessler found. At least with the above, you know WHAT you want to achieve. HOW to achieve it will require patience, continuous effort, and, most importantly, the firm conviction that it CAN be done.
Yes, the same description of any pm wheel design that supposedly turns from weight being shifted by gravity to maintain overbalancing by forcing the weights into rim and axle paths. Been there, got the physics t-shirt.
ReplyDeleteBreaking it down into 45 degrees doesn't give 1st class levers magical properties.
Applying e=mc^2 to explain how it could work is amusing, as always, and your best technoism.
Well Techno, I asked you not to do something and you ended up doing it anyway. Stated statements as fact made from implication is poor reasoning.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to a pm wheel, there are other factors of force besides gravity as well. You state things as fact but show a lack of...research. Case in point, you said "CoM of its weights attempts to swing down below the axle", How do you know whether or not the COM is above the axle? You make statements with over confidence, which has made me make statements wondering what you're smoking.
Another example, "I'm sure that I make all of this sound so easy that one might wonder why no one after Bessler figured out how to do it."
Question, have you made a working wheel?
I haven't seen you comment on this yet.
"A great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards! Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall. If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself. But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain"
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteIt does truly sadden me to hear how you tried to maintain the overbalance of a wheel and did not find success. This, however, does not "prove" it is impossible, just that YOUR attempts did not find that one in perhaps tens of thousands of possible configurations that would work. I, too, have been there (and not just with gravity dependent machines) and have also paid a high price for the physics tee-shirt, the mug, the postcards, and the bumper sticker in the process! However, I don't let this deter me in the least because I KNOW it's possible. How? Master Bessler told me so and that's enough for me! He wasn't a liar or a hoaxer...just a very ingenious guy who went to hell and back to find a design that worked and then expected to be compensated for his sacrifice in one bold stroke. That, of course, was his fatal mistake and the one that caused his discovery to go to the grave with him (almost, that is) and his "rightful" place in history to be jeopardized.
@ Anon ("101"?)
Sorry if you found my reponse to be a bit "evasive". Yes, I wish that I could quote you chapter and verse where Bessler proudly proclaims that he is a numerologist and, because of that, purposely incorporated various mystical numbers, ratios, and angles into his wheels. Did you ever consider that maybe he PURPOSELY did NOT do this because he knew it might be offensive to some of his religious readers or potential invention buyers. He certainly knew that his "esoteric" interests could be perceived by many to be a form of sorcery and might therefore be used to further justify persecuting him. Even the great Newton had to keep his more bizarre studies secret and he had far more status than Bessler had.
PART II:
ReplyDeleteWell, you ask if I have a working wheel and the answer, sadly, is "No". However, I have had some impressive, though limited, success in getting a wheel to rotate through 45° while managing to keep the CoM of its eight weighted levers on the descending side throughout the entire rotation. And, yes, my levers do return to their starting orientations at the end of the rotation increment. I have plans to extend the design I've found to see if I can continue this process from one interval to the next, but I'm only beginning to do this and, as usual, will no doubt encounter a 1001 obstacles along the way. In short, I am still far from producing a fully operational wheel, but, like Bessler, have "high hopes" of eventual success. I am still hindered by not yet having all of the details of the Connectedness Principle and lever design that Bessler used. I feel, however, that I am getting closer with each passing month to finding them.
No, the CoM of Bessler's wheels was not "above the axle" on the drum's descending side, but, rather below it and only very slightly displaced onto the drum's descending side (for example, in the Weissenstein wheel, the CoM of its driving sub wheel was only displaced onto the descending side of the drum about ONE inch horizontally away from a vertical line passing through the center of the axle and was about four inches below a horizontal line passing through the center of the axle). This is the reason Bessler's wheel's had such low torques which could only really be increased by increasing the masses of their weights and the dimensions of their drums.
I have commented on Bessler's AP quote about "lightly" causing a heavy weight to fly up, etc. in a past comment. Basically, Bessler is telling mobilists that if they can figure out how to do this, then they will eventually be able to use that knowledge to achieve a working PM wheel. What was he refering to? Simple. Through careful counter balancing, it is easily possible to make a small weight drop a short distance while it causes a more massive weight to fly up a greater distance. Once you understand the principle involved, the next step is to apply it to causing the ascending side weighted levers in your rotating PM wheel to begin quickly rising toward their rim stops as other weighted levers in the design fall with respect to their rim stops. However, you will NOT achieve final success until you have the CORRECT Connectedness Principle AND the "magic" lever configuration that Bessler found (and don't forget that there are also SPRINGS involved in the use of this principle as well as weights).
Just like JC my ‘blogg stats’ tell me I have over 1,000 ‘hits’ a month on my website. Clearly people are looking at my work but nobody wants to talk to me?
ReplyDeleteI did receive a proper considered response from the folks at Arrache and then of course there is ‘Andre La Pierre’s Design’ on this site, but apart from these responses nothing! The silence is deafening! There are indeed a great many lurkers out there, presumably trying to get something for nothing whilst making no contribution.
I would like to add my voice to those who have expressed disapproval at all the ‘anons’ why can’t people use their real names? I would like to hear from the ‘anons’ why they do this?
Speaking as a squirrel who has put his nuts on the table (pun intended) I think it is a great shame that people don’t want to work cooperatively, Everyone it seems wants to ‘win’ and they keep all their best nuts hidden away. Clearly this is one of the reasons the secret has remained hidden for so long, everyone colludes in the hiding!
I didn’t want to be a squirrel, or a ‘lone wolf’ either for that matter.
Here are a few more nuts for the table.
The weights are arranged in sets of 3. Bearings are grouped in sets of 10 (not including the larger ones around the axle) There are 22 elements in one self-moving part of the wheel (one overbalancing beam) The connectedness principle works parallel to the axle as well as across it; basically it is a crank. (Sorry Technoguy there are no ropes pulleys or springs) Take a good look at MT27 which shows the correct position of some of the weights ‘at the heart of the matter’ and then look again at MT140 (which JC was right to include even though it is a drawing and not a woodcut) what a gem of a clue it is!! And finally please don’t forget the massive nut I already gave you, namely the armature that transports the small weight in and out from the axle to the ‘rim’.
JW
Don't be sad, Tguyness. Been there, got the physics tshirt was meant as a twist on been there, done that, got the t shirt. I haven't had any failures with your approach because I already know they won't work, so I don't build that way.
ReplyDeleteFor example, you said "through careful counterbalancing it's possible to make a small weight drop a short distance while it causes a more massive weight to fly up a greater distance". That's wrong, you need to study leverage more. You have it backwards.
The one inch vertical, four inch horizontal CoM analysis you gave is another example. If that was true, it wouldn't work. Whatever energy is keeping the CoM offset would have to keep it higher than the axle; that's coomon sense. Once more mass is in the lower half, it will keel.
John Worton wrote;
ReplyDelete" There are indeed a great many lurkers out there, presumably trying to get something for nothing whilst making no contribution."
There is a simple answer to this. Don't contribute. I find it highly suspect anyway why anyone wants to contribute but then complain. If your going to make a wheel go ahead and make a wheel, talk about it after you are done. But no, the truth is your wanting feedback so your intentions aren't honourably flawless. Your wanting something from it. My guess is most ( not all ) of the lurkers are laughing at you.
Tech, you still haven't explained why you like to pose and post as if you know all the answers.
For John Worton.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0l3QWUXVho&feature=fvsr
101
@ John Worton
ReplyDeleteIf people are not commenting on your design (I have not seen it or visited your website), then it's probably because they've taken a quick look and concluded that it is not workable for one reason or another. Most likely, whatever you have contains design elementst that others have already tried and discarded as unworkable.
You mention an "armature" in your last comment and if it involves anything attached to the interior portion of the wheel's axle, then it is NOT the design Bessler used. Remember that he wrote "In a true PM, nothing can be stationary on the axle". The driving mechanics of his wheels were located nearer to the drum's periphery than to its axle. He even allowed skeptical members of the viewing public to actually reach up through a hole in the covering of his earlier wheels to touch the hidden portions of their axles so they could verify there was nothing attached to them or even near them (aside from the drum's radial support members)..
@ Doug
Well, if YOU can not figure out how a light weight falling a short distance can send a heavier weight flying up a much farther distance, than, obviously, you won't be discovering the secret of PM anytime soon! I figured out how to do this "trick" with weights when I was only ten years old!
PART II:
ReplyDeleteNo! It does NOT require the expenditure of energy / mass to keep the CoM of a Bessler type OB wheel offset to one side of its axle. The CoM stays there because those shifted weighted levers surrounding the axle are in a state of STATIC equilibrium. If the wheel's drum was locked into position, the CoM of its eight driving weights would stay where it was on the potentially descending side of the drum for eternity. No energy / mass is expended to do this.
Yes, a wheel with one side being heavier than the other will "keel" after a sufficient amount of rotation (all of my past efforts did!). BUT, that did NOT happen in Bessler's wheels because one side of a wheel (the descending side) was ALWAYS heavier than the other (the ascending side) due to the continuous repositioning of the CoM of its driving weights that occurred as drum rotation took place. This repositioning process did NOT require the expenditure of energy / mass. It was completely automatic at all times.
The closest conventional analogy that I can give is for one to imagine a Ferris wheel with eight seats which each hold a heavy weight of the same mass. In this case, the CoM of the weights will be located directly below the center of the Ferris wheel's axle.. If an outside motor's torque is not applied to the Ferris wheel, it will remain motionless.
Next imagine someone comes along and, while standing on the ground near the lowest seat to the ground, begins to push on the frame of the Ferris wheel. If its various bearings are well lubricated enough, the Ferris wheel will begin to turn
slowly. However, no matter how much the person rotates the frame of the Ferris wheel, the CoM of the eight weights it carries in its seats will STILL remain located under the wheel's axle. No energy is required to keep the CoM in that position.
In a similar fashion, when one of Bessler's wheels began to rotate, the CoM of its weights also remained stationary. (However, with increasing rotation rate and CF affecting the ascending side weights, this situation would change and the CoM of its eight weights would slowly begin rotating under the axle as the drum approached its terminal rotation rate.) Bessler found a unique lever design and cord interconnection scheme that allowed this to happen. And, until today's active mobilist does the same, Bessler's secrets will remain "lost" to the world.
This following little rhyme occurred to me the other day and, basically, tells it all:
"If my eight weighted levers don't have springs, strings, and some swing, then my wheels will NEVER do a thing!"
It is my earnest hope that all of the "serious" Bessler researchers out there will write this rhyme in LARGE letters on a sheet of cardboard and then conspicuously position it over their work benches / computer monitors so that they can not avoid seeing it every day. It will help them minimize the chance of becoming distracted from what they should be looking for in their designs IF they truly want to have ANY hope of solving the Bessler mystery during their limited lifetime.
@ Anon
I post here because I have some spare time to spend online, I can provide some thought provoking content for others who have some time to visit, I want to encourage mobilists to seek a solution to the Bessler mystery, and my as well as others contributions takes some of the strain off of JC to more frequently make additional blogs entries to attract visitors. Following this and other sites also helps motivate me in my own quest to find Bessler's design.
I never claim to have ALL of the answers, BUT I do truly believe that I have reached the point where I have at least 90% of them. If anybody disagrees with me, then that is fine with me...they are free to do so as I with them.
John,..Please hearken to the complaints about the anons who throw insults at those who are merely enthusiastic about their contributions.
ReplyDeleteThey need to be accountable for their remarks which can only be attributed to professional jealousy or periods of innebriate indulgence not to mention bi-polar behaviour to be more kind.
Anons who throw insults should be vetted because they have not the guts to sign their name.
Can you not suggest a remedy.
Do not be so thin skinned ,Trevor.
ReplyDeleteThere is no secret to PM, tguyness. It's impossible. Your nuts are safe, they'll turn rancid as well, even the tricky ones that you don't understand from your youth.
ReplyDelete@ Doug
ReplyDeleteIf one assumes in advance that PM is impossible, then he will have absolutely no motivation to look for it and might as well not even try. Bessler stated that the reason he found PM in "a place no different from where others looked" was because he tried more approaches than they did. He decided to work with designs like Leupold"s lever wheel and see if he could make them into "runners'. I believe that he succeeded.
The secret of his success was finding a lever design and interconnecting cord scheme that forced a one direction wheel's eight weighted levers to assume a state of static equilibrium with respect to each other that then placed the CoM of their weights onto the wheel's descending side. Designs that will do this are not difficult to find. What is difficult to find is a design that will ALSO continuously readjust the postion of its weights' CoM with drum rotation so as to always keep it in the same locations. But, with enough research effort that design can be found. No, it won't be easy to do or it would have been found a long time ago. But, fortunately, we have tools at our disposal that can greatly speed up the search.
As for the "trick" I learned as a ten year old, here it is:
One day I was playing with a paddle ball. I'm sure every adult reading this had one of these back then. It consisted of a wooden paddle which was attached to a sponge ball by a two foot long rubber band. One would smack the ball with the paddle and it would fly off, but then after it had stretched the rubber band a certain distance, the ball would reverse direction and fly back toward the paddle again. With skill one could smack the ball again and it would then fly away again only to again be pulled back to the paddle.
Well, as luck would have it, one day I was paddling the hell out of my sponge ball when, all of a sudden, the rubber band broke near the paddle. By this time I was growing bored with this toy anyway and began to play with just the ball and its attached two foot long rubber band.
With a friend's help I decided to attached the broken end of the rubber band to toy jetplane I had then drop this toy off of a high porch whlle I held onto the sponge ball. I had hoped that it would bounce up and down like a giant yo-yo. To my delight it did, but eventually stopped with the rubber band strecthed out to a lenght of about ten feet and the toy jet near the ground.
While my friend held the ball end of the rubber band, I went off of the porch and inspected the suspended toy jet. I found that by applying the lightest touch to the bottom of it, I could easily make the toy rapidly rise through a distance of over a foot!
I believe that this same process is the one Bessler was referring to in his cryptic AP quote about "lightly throwing a heavy weight upward", but, of course, Bessler was using counter weights and springs instead of rubber bands. If one was, say, to suspend the ascending side weighted levers on springs inside of an OB PM gravity wheel and then also attach those levers to other levers that were simultaneously descending as the wheel rotated, he just might find those ascending side weighted levers flying up rapidly and helping to keep the CoM of all of the wheel's weights on the wheel's descending side.
Keep the faith everyone...it CAN and eventually WILL be done!
Vincent,.. There has been complaints from more than one source.How can all of us be wrong?
ReplyDeleteIt does not matter how ingenius our posts are,we are judged by the anons as being wrong or unscientific.
ReplyDeleteRegretfully I have had to restrict the comments a little. No more anons, but I will change it back if the demand is there. There have been very few negative comments so far and I could just continue to delete the few instead of restricting anonymous commentators. I'll leave it for a dayor two to see what if any reaction I get.
ReplyDeleteJC
Thanks John,..I agree,this is not an exclusive club,while we love the people,we hate the attitude.
ReplyDeleteI like to think we are a team.
Tguyness, even if only 2 weights are connected to, and helping lift a rising weight, they can't lift together. The symmetrical nature of a wheel prevents it. The levers can't be configured to any "shape" to accomplish it.
ReplyDeleteMy advice to everyone is the same; look for energy sources to supplement gravity. Just because bessler said he found it where everyone else looked doesn't mean he was referring to gravity.
Happy New Year!
And a Happy and Blessed new year to you all aswell.
ReplyDeleteOnly 157 more days!
ReplyDeleteWhat an excellant way to qualify,..Just submit your name and photo.
ReplyDelete@ Doug
ReplyDeleteQuite possibly each rising weight had been lifted by three descending weights and a spring! The "symmetry" of the wheel had nothing to do with this because the shifting motions of the weighted levers within a wheel were not symmetrical. One has to find a design that allows the lifting of ascending side weights to become rapid and sequential. That is, after a weighted lever has descended and lifted another weighted lever it then becomes that descended lever's turn to be lifted. Since there are only eight levers in a one directional wheel and their pivots form an octagon around the axle, the shifting process they all go through must be repeated eight times per drum rotation with the result that their CoM always stays on the wheel's descending side.
I note that the question of whether or not the Weissenstein wheel could be heard through the sealed door of the castle during its two month duration test has, once again, arisen.
After thinking it over, I suspect that it could NOT be heard through the sealed door. The walls were feet thick and made of stone and that door was probably at least six inches thick and made of solid wood (oak?). Also, the only sounds reported for the wheel were "gentle" impacts on its descending side. Bessler had probably done his best at sound reduction on this, his greatest wheel ever.
The major sources of sound produced inside of a two directional wheel would have been those caused by the descending side weights of its active sub wheel as they landed on their rim stops and those stops would have been covered with a thick layer of felt to cushion the impacts. The next sound that would have needed to be silenced would have been the "clatter" associated with the gravity activated latches used to lock a retrograde rotating subwheel's weights against their rim stops (this action would cause the CoM of the retrograde subwheel's weights to position itself at the center of the axle). Those latches could get rather noisy as they flopped back against the rim during part of a wheel's rotation. But, here again, generous use of felt would reduce these sounds to a minimum.
So, was it possible to know if the wheel was still turning after the door was closed and sealed (something Gartner would have claimed was not possible)? The answer is "Yes"!
Remember that window shown in the DT illustrations? Well, in the fortifed room that the wheel was located in, that window would not have faced out from the front of the castle, but rather inward toward an enclosed courtyard inside of the castle. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the count and Bessler would occasionally, during the two month test, have traveled to another room on the same floor as the wheel room and, through its window, employed a small telescope to take a peek inside of the wheel room to verify that the wheel was still turning.
Knowing that it was, I can imagine that both the count and Bessler might have raked in some serious thalers waging that the great wheel would still be turning after months while all of tthe mechanical "experts" bet against that happening.
It's nice to place a bet...especially when it's a sure thing! LOL!
@ Technoguy
ReplyDeleteYou should know that I am actually a bit of a Technoguy fan. I always enjoy reading your contributions to this blogg. IMO you have good ideas and you write well. Your finding of the Leupold drawing and the ensuing debate that generated; including the connectedness principle etc, was excellent work.
It seems we share a love of words, your pentagramicity and pentamania had me smiling. This is good news for both of us because etymology is a vital part of Bessler code breaking.
I find myself in agreement with many of your ideas/clue solutions and in complete disagreement with many others. My interpretation of the line you quote is very different "In a true PM, nothing can be stationary on the axle" simply means that everything in the mechanism is constantly on the move nothing is ever ‘parked up’ for a while on the axle. The idea of effectively (temporarily) loosing a weight during rotation by resting it directly on the axle was one that I explored in the early days of my experimentations. I believe Bessler is confirming that this not the case.
You say “The driving mechanics of his wheels were located nearer to the drum's periphery than to its axle” I say yes and no. Yes in the sense of the Leupold drawing, it is the small weight carried by an armature to the periphery that causes the overbalancing, and no, there are also “driving mechanics” lying a times very close to the axle: so close they are in fact hitting it! “ An Anvil receives many blows”
3 weights makes less sense, Tguyness. Cords, being flexible, would need to run through a pulley, mounted either on the rim or the axle, to provide lift from one side to the other. The pulleys would need room for 2 or 3 cords, like a block and tackle.
ReplyDeleteThis doesn't sound like a simple thing to build does it? And the friction, the counter torque...
No, this would never work. I'll bet 10000 thalers.
@ John Worton
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for the praise and I am happy to read you find my various ramblings here of interest. I just hope that JC is not getting jealous in the process. This is, afterall, HIS blog and not mine!
With respect to the quote:
"In a true Perpetuum Mobile everything must, necessarily, go round together. There can be nothing involved in it which remains stationary on the axle." - pg 361
It is obvious to me that Bessler is trying to say that there is nothing "riding" (and thus remaining stationary with respect to the environment outside of a wheel's drum) on a rotating axle such as a massive pendulum as depicted in MT 13 or the clockwork mechanism cooked up my Wagner. I must dismiss the possibility of a wheel's axle being actually involved in the operation of a drum's "perpetual motion structures" because Bessler allowed skeptical members of the public to insert their hands into a hole in the slat casings of the earlier one directional wheel drums near the axle and to then physically grasp the axle and feel around it. If there was anything, cords, rods, or weights, that passed through or even near the axle, then this would have been immediately obvious to them.
@ Doug
I'll see your 10,000 thalers and raise you 20,000 thalers! LOL!
No, Bessler did not need to use pulleys inside of his wheel drums to shift the weighted levers about. The Connectedness Principle would have used direct cord connections between the specially designed levers. However, during each 45° increment of drum rotation, only some of the cords would have been used and thus taut while others would be waiting their turn to be used and therefore slack (Bessler mentions this somewhere, but I can't find the reference now).
Again, a Bessler type OB PM wheel works because the eccentric path that its weigths are obliged to follow during drum rotation forces descending side weights to lose a bit more energy / mass than is regained by the ascending side weights. The problem we have is to find the EXACT magic lever design and the cord interconnection scheme Bessler used, And don't forget about those blasted springs. As indicated in MT 18, they are not to be "disdained or entirely disregarded". They are, I suspect, VERY important and most likely were CRITICAL to successful operation of his wheels!
Oh, some of you lurkers out there in PM land say that you don't believe that since, like gravity, spring tension is also a "conservative" force? Trust me...a decade from now you WILL believe it!
@ Technoguy
ReplyDeleteI cannot recall and today could not locate that passage which you say states that people reached through the inspection hole, felt their way along the axle and could then have confirmed that there was nothing “passing through or even near it” Please could you direct me to that passage?
I did find the following references to ‘the hole’
“Oh, by the way, I'll tell you with great pride that my timbers are all solid. There's also no trickery going on behind that hole - it's just for inspection purposes” AP p289
In my mind “solid timbers” rather supports my contention that the mechanism is composed of solid levers and rather undermines your theory of chords.
“I'd also like to mention in this regard that very recently friends of mine have expressed a wish to be allowed, for a consideration, to look through the hole into the innards of the machine. And so, for the benefit of all those, here and there, who have the wit to want to know the plain truth about the matter, I say:- “I can find the way to cure your longing!” Anyone who gives me a few ducats, and is prepared to swear on oath which I shall lay before him - I, wishing to hide nothing away in dark corners, shall reveal freely everything to him” AP p292
Bessler does not say here that he actually allowed his friends to make an inspection, (having sworn an oath) nor does he say what his friends felt and then concluded.
I also found this passage which might possibly be the one to which you refer? “Now look, Wagner, just listen carefully if you want some information from me. People say that, in your writings, you claim to have devised a Wheel which has a divided axle, held together in the middle only by a peg. Am I reporting you correctly? But people will continue to laugh until you actually produce such a machine! You further claim that my wheel is the same, but you're lying through your teeth! Ask any of those who have groped inside my Wheel and grasped its axle - and you will be assured, in no uncertain terms, that my axle is not like that. Rather, it has many compartments, and is pierced all over with various holes. Anyone with a bit of understanding will see that my machine works in quite a different manner” AP p325&6
This is the only quote I could find that clearly says that people had “groped inside (the) wheel and grasped the axle” Bessler says here that those who did would confirm that the axle is not divided and that it does have several compartments pierced with holes. I do not see how this passage establishes that the axle is clear of rods or weights “passing anywhere near it” as you say, is there another that does?
It might be of interest to consider for a moment another passage. “A wheel appears on the scene - is it really a wheel, for it does not have the normal type of rim. It revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind, or springs” AP p295. From this quote we can clearly deduce that there are definitely no weights or springs involved in the construction of the wheel, so we can all stop wasting our time looking for or using them – Yes? Additionally with the clear statement that the wheel revolves “without other wheels inside” it I’m not sure where that leaves your theory of the sub-wheel?
I would reiterate points made several times before on this blogg that we are all probably guilty of making the clues fit our own precious theory and are all at the mercy of the interpretation/translation skills of the translator from Old German to English.
@ John Worton
ReplyDeleteYes, Bessler was willing to reveal all to his friends in exchange for "a few ducats" and a confidentiality oath. However, as Count Carl found out, those "few ducats" could amount to 4,000 thalers! That is about what a full professor at a university of the time would have earned in several YEARS!
Yes, all of Bessler's timbers were "solid". This refers mainly to the wheel's axle and upright support pieces. It is Bessler's way of saying that there are no hidden mechanisms in these that were used to propel his wheels. The levers inside of the drums were also made of wood with lead weights mounted on their ends. These levers were all interconnected together in a special way (via the Connectedness Principle) so that their shifting was carefully coordinated during drum rotation.
You seem to think that the following line applies to the drum's axle:
"...it has many compartments, and is pierced all over with various holes."
NO! The word "it" in this line does not refer to the axle, but rather to the DRUM itself.
If one could view the drum without its cloth covering, then he would see that each side consisted of eight radial members that attached the axle to the outer rim. Each of the two parallel sides was then made rigid by cross pieces that connected opposite points on the radial members. This cylindrical framework would then appear to be divided into eight 45° sectors or "compartments" of equal volume. Most likely the pivots for the "perpetual motion structures" (the magic levers Bessler used) would have been placed near to the ends of the radial members and actually embedded into the radial members..
As for being "pierced all over with holes" is concerned, this refers to the cloth covering that was stretched across the two sides of the drum. Bessler had cut out eight small holes on one side of the drum between the radial support members so that, in the event of a part failure inside of the drum, he could quickly locate it and then reach into the drum through the hole to make a repair or replace a failed part entirely (which most likely would have been a broken cord or spring). These holes were not left open, but rather covered with a larger piece of cloth that was pinned into position. He also would have had at least one small hole located near the axle for those that wanted to reach in there and grasp the axle.
Perhaps for "a few ducats" and the oath, Bessler would have let a friend take a peek through one of the nearer the rim holes to view a wheel's various levers and the system of interconnecting cords. With a brief look and no drawings made of the levers and interconnecting cords there would have been little chance of the viewer being able to duplicate the machine. Bessler probably would have excluded anyone that exhibited any artistic or mechanical abilities because such a person might be able to duplicate the wheel after only a brief glimpse inside its drum.
However, you can be sure that after paying 4,000 thalers, Count Carl would have been allowed to view a completely uncloaked drum and to slowly rotate it with his own hands so that he could see the ascending side levers first "gravitating" toward the axle and then "climbing" away again toward the rim on their way to the zenith as the wheel's drum was rotated. He would have had absolutely NO doubt that he was, indeed, viewing a genuine WORKING PM gravity wheel.