Saturday, 4 May 2013

Bessler's use of the circumpunct in his pseudonym, Orffyreus.

Before you begin, let me say, this is largely speculative!



A circumpunct is a circle with a dot or point in its centre. Bessler used it in place of the letter 'O' in Orffyreus, in almost all of his abbreviated signatures as well as many of his full ones.  The above two are typical examples.  I used to think that it was his own invention and simply represented his wheel, however in the last couple of years I have begun to think there is more to its presence than I had originally thought.  It was, as is the case with every little personal addition of Bessler's, deliberate, planned and with a double meaning. 

The circumpunct symbol has a long history and has represented the sun,  and was the hieroglyphic for the the Egyptian God, Ra.  As a nazar it was believed to protect against the evil eye.  It was the Alchemical symbol for Gold.  Its use dates back to the Hebrews and Egypt and for all I know further back.  It was used by Dan Brown in his book, 'The Lost Symbol', and interestingly has links to Freemasonry, where it was used as the symbol of an Entered Apprentice. This title refers to a junior member of the Freemasons and might apply to Bessler, but for what purpose I do not know. He might have been pointing to some kind of code system used by the Freemasons.  However, I'm not convinced that he was an accredited member, even if he was familiar with much of their history and methods; although he seems to hint at the square and compass in his drawings and of course they are crudely represented on the plaque at Carlshafen, bearing his image. Two of the three famous Rosicrucian Manifestos were published in Kassel and it was always recognised as a centre of Freemasonry and I'm sure that Bessler learned quickly all he could about the subject, given his propensity for doing so in other areas of interest.  I note that in the Masonic Lodge, the emblem is associated with St. John the Baptist and St. John the Evangelist, whose feast days fall on the summer and winter solstices.

In Cabbalistic mysticism, it represented the archangel Michael, - and it is related to the monad, which is a whole new can of worms.

To the Pythagoreans, the point and circle represented eternity, whose “centre is everywhere and the circumference nowhere.” This symbol was used by the Greek philosophers to represent the point of the beginning of creation. From this symbol they evolved towards the additional rules of creation including the Golden Ratio. 

There is one other possible connection and that points straight to Francis Bacon and his bilateral cipher. This alphabet clearly shows the circumpunct and if Bessler was familar with Bacon's work as well as the symbol he would have thought it perfect for use in his signature, both as a link to his wheel but also, possibly, as a link, potentially, to his use of the bilateral code.



I guess it would look something like the above in print:-


and here, just for my own amusement is my name, suitably embellished;



JC

10a2c5d26e15f6g7h10ik12l3m6n14o14r5s17tu6v5w4y4-3,’.





148 comments:

  1. There is some reference in Freemasonry to " broken columns " meaning the dead but not forgotten , as in each member being part of the supporting structure and being missed I suppose . Also this since it slipped past the new blog entry :
    When I read AP I noticed four outstanding No-No's of basic Christian Taboo . The first was that Bessler declared himself free from sin ( the Bible strictly enforces that all have sinned ) which he later recants . The second is that he changed the wording of the Bible ( It is written that any man who adds or deletes a word from the text will be damned ) when he added 1717 to the Matthew quote . Third he implies that the infamous " End Times " are close at hand . Fourth he implies that when folks see the operation of his machine nakedly they will sing " Christ is Risen " thereby equating his device with the Second Coming of Christ , when ( again the Bible clearly states that no man knows when this will happen and if they say they do they are false ) . I am not saying that these things point to fraud but they are suspect IMO to anyone who knows about the Bible .
    CW

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He would have seen the end times by traveling into the future with his time travel machine.

      Delete
    2. The " Buyer Buys " could indeed be a failed attempt at predicting the sale of his machine .
      Let's rejoice in the fact that he did not say " The Buyer Buys , the Head Pays ... " rather , the( now useless work- ) horses must have got out of the broken fence .
      CW

      Delete
    3. With regards to being free of sin, I have a theory about that,
      the line "for greed is an evil plant", may be better translated as "greed is the root of all evil".
      Now why greed and not money?
      Greed is the third cardinal sin, what's significant about being third?
      The Earth is the third planet from the Sun.
      What is sinful/greedy about the Earth?
      Gravity! it wants to pull everything in, and hold on to it.
      Bessler was saying he was free of Earth's greedy gravity.
      I have linked nearly all of the first coded passages to astronomy/astrology.
      "The buyer buys" is there an astrological connection? yes!
      In Bessler's time, most things you bought were weighed on scales = Libra = balance, a hint at part of the mechanism?
      Lots more fit in like that, but most people would consider them the ramblings of an old man, but if anyone is interested in my take on a particular line, I'd be glad to give it.

      Delete
    4. Yes , I have thought that maybe Bessler's device was some kind of special scale . He seems to be saying this when he is talking about mathematicians "for you have granted to them above all others the ability to discover and demonstrate the true character of things, of your great and wondrous creations, according to their differing amounts, dimensions and weights, propensities and properties." - pg 206 DTPM
      CW

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    5. Thanks, CW, I'm glad you think my ramblings are not that mad!
      Another astrological take on a line from the previous posting.
      "An anvil receives many blows"
      Vulcan, the god of the forge, (starts with a V, = 5)
      depicted with a hammer and tongs.
      He forged the scales of the constellation Libra.
      Coincidence?

      Delete
    6. Chris, Bessler was getting his latest wheel ready and had until Easter 1717 to do it, which you would've realized if you knew as much as you keep boasting about.

      -Ed

      Delete
    7. Right , I see what ya mean . Not boasting though . Could you be more specific ?
      CW

      Delete
    8. Primemignonite6 May 2013 at 02:57

      No, NOT an old man's ramblings. Very nicely found and put.

      Every day, there is some thing to be learnt; first from John, then yourself.

      James

      Delete
    9. Thanks, James,
      just for that, here's another one,
      " A driver drives" no, not a driver as in a piece of machinery, but as in a car.
      Phaeton, driving his fiery chariot across the sky, the Sun!

      Delete
    10. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    11. James, just realized my bad phrasing, that's not a response to you, it was used used by myself to an annoying anonymous, sorry.

      Delete
  2. B and R are opposites as well as O and Y ... also there is no U just as Bessler omitted the use of the U in the Bible quote at the end of AP .
    CW

    ReplyDelete

  3. The self starting bessler wheel is at least 50 years ahead of the current level of technology which exists on this planet .

    ReplyDelete
  4. Short update on the verification/building-progress:
    Base of wheel and first complete mechanism with two weight was mounted today.
    The mechanism moved and performed as expected and calculated.

    Next step is to mount a second mechanism, together making up the first module.
    Then we start on the next module and lastly the "control-mechanism".

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Oystein,
      glad to hear your news, after your first announcement a lot of people turned on you, for what reason I don't know, you would think that they would be glad of some progress.
      Anyway just replied because your good news looks lost and lonely, in amongst all the ramblings (including mine!)

      Delete
    2. Thanks, lonely is better than attacked though.

      Even if we work slow (just a couple of hours a week) I think we got far by proving that the mechanism performed just as it was drawn and just as it had to. And all the 12 parts (from Besslers geometrical "blueprints") and a pair of weights where all needed there for the single mechanism to perform well and to be prepaired to work with the rest.

      The special "impress(force)and lock/unlock" function also worked as predicted.










      Delete
    3. TWO HOURS A WEEK !,
      that's about 1 hr. 58 min. more than the Mrs. would ever allow me.
      When you're running a business with your wife, there's always something on the "honeydew list", as the Americans say.

      Delete
  5. John, I'm surprised that when you were mentioning kiiking and parametric oscillation, none of our continental friends directed you to the youtube videos of the rhoenrad gymnasts.
    I've just discovered them, and if you could mechanically imitate some of the moves, we're in business, if there's nothing in it, the girls are not bad to look at anyway!
    If anyone wants to know how a moving weight can gain in a wheel, check them out.
    But a video that tops the lot is "The Columbia Wheel of Death-begining", once the four guys have got the wheel rolling, they jump from one side of their cage rings to the other, landing with a stomp, an action easily imitated by a spring loaded weight, it all looks very Bessler like.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Thanks for the suggestions, Stevo, amazing gymnasts!

    JC

    ReplyDelete
  7. The orffyrean time machine is like a glass jar filled with light, how it works is the light is imploded towards its centre, then the light quickly explodes with a spring like action into a larger space opening up an orffyrean stargate .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ealadha,
      a Stargate is used to travel from point to point in the universe, only when it is affected by a solar flare is it capable of time travel.

      Lt. Col. Samantha Carter, USAF.

      Delete
    2. Yes, quite,
      I have to watch out for those solar flares all the time while I'm on my travels,
      wouldn't do to have cross over television programmes now would it?

      The Doctor

      Delete
    3. The orffyrean stargate is more technologically advanced from the stargates' that the ancients built, the orffyrean stargate not only has time travel capabilities but can also create universes of energy space and time.
      Several dozen experimental universes were created.
      Offyrean devices were hidden in universes that were created by the orffyrean stargate.

      Delete
    4. Ealadha,
      please exercise extreme caution when operating a time machine of any description,
      we have been trying to retrieve Doug and Tony ever since they went into the Time Tunnel in 1968.

      Dr. Ann McGregor

      Delete
    5. Okay Ealadha,
      I'll admit, it was me having a bit of fun back there,
      I'm not sure of your religious persuasion, but have you heard of The Urantia Book, I tried to read it, but it's not my cup of tea.
      I am sure that it's something you will enjoy very much.

      Delete
    6. Hi Stevo, thanks I will look into that Urantia book , I have not heard of it before.
      I am a member of the Jedi church.

      Delete
    7. Ealadha, the book is in the public domain, you can read it online at,

      www.urantia.org/urantia-book/read-urantia-book-online

      Delete
  8. I think he used it because it is a symbol of a wheel and axle, a marketing ploy for him, for the same reason he added the two names to his own name, so he could manipulate the result for its impact as a graphical advertisement.

    The Bacon code also has a dot in the Q for some reason.

    IPad Doug

    ReplyDelete
  9. When John Dee was employed as a spy by Queen Elizabeth I, she designated him as 007, the original James Bond. His insignia was a 007 with two 'o's looking like eyes looking at you. I suspect that the letters 'O' and 'Q' were given eyes for similar purposes. I've added Dee's insignia to the end of the latest blog, to show you.

    JC

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. John, glad you liked the videos, when I saw the gymnasts move the wheel with very little effort, while in a Y shaped posture, I thought that may be what the Apologia Wheel was hinting at. Unfortunately, the wheel was only invented in the 1920's.
      One more take on the circumpunct, if you used your Masonic Compass' to draw a circle,you get a circle with dot (point hole) in the middle!

      Delete
    2. The O and Q are meant to be eyes looking at me?
      The 007 doesn't have the dots indicating pupils for eyes. But the 7 going across the top makes it look like a pair of folded up opera glasses from back then.

      iPad Doug

      Delete
  10. CW Said ...
    "When I read AP I noticed four outstanding No-No's of basic Christian Taboo...I am not saying that these things point to fraud but they are suspect IMO to anyone who knows about the Bible"

    Chris,
    Maybe I missed something, but you were so sure about Bessler's integrity. Is this a hint that your design (Bessler's design) is not working?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I was just mentioning my first impressions from reading AP ( several years ago ) , pointing out some discrepancies . Almost from the beginning Bessler claimed he was free from sin and later recanted as I said . Seems to be a given that if there is one there are many . I am on my own as far as design ... just like everyone else except for maybe John who seems to be able to tie his design to Bessler for sure .
      CW

      Delete
    2. I'll tell all of you what I finally had to tell my daughter : Perpetual motion , if not impossible is improbable by human hands . Chances are no one will discover it . But I'm trying really hard to understand ... and what's more I FEEL like I am getting somewhere .
      CW

      Delete
    3. Words of defeated and broken man...what a shame...seems just like yesterday you were 100% sure you had a runner. Well it's finally over. Don't feel bad, you gave it a good shot. There must be some BWA group out there for all you guys to commiserate. Say hey to John, John, Trevor, Mike, TG, Ken B, Suresh, and all the others when you get there.

      Delete
    4. Take solace in these words CW.

      He's a real nowhere man, sitting in his nowhere land, making all his nowhere plans
      for nobody ... he's as blind as he can be ... he sees only what he wants to see ... for he will always be, just a simple Bessler wanna be ...

      Delete
    5. And you are UOF : Unidentified Objectionable Fool . You probably are not even trying to build anything or think of anything . Just think that whatever you say I am you are underneath even that .
      CW

      Delete
    6. You mean lower than a snake's belly in a wagon rut?

      Delete
  11. First John, then Trevor, and now it looks like Chris.

    Looks like all hopes for a working wheel from these guys is over. The fat lady is a singing.

    ...TURN OUT THE LIGHTS...THE PARTYS OVER...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hey!,..don't write me of just yet, I'm still on to something good.

      Delete
    2. Sorry mate, the facts just don't look good.

      Delete
    3. When the night seems darkest after then comes the dawn.

      Delete
    4. Sorry, I'm the Party Pooper, and you're all pooped out.

      Don't wait too long to announce failure, otherwise it will only further taint your next announcement of certain success. Shades of CW ...

      Delete
    5. Yep, looks like you dropped a bomb all right.

      Delete
    6. Hooooey...thats a real stinker by the sounds of it Trev old boy.

      Delete
  12. Primemignonite6 May 2013 at 02:37

    John,

    An interesting topic and, as always, very nicely done.

    While going through it, one is pleasantly struck by just how much can be learned from seemingly simple subjects. Always, either traces the Lord or the devil is to be found in the details of matters-general.

    Also, for our benefit, we not might bear in mind the detailly fact that, the most infamous Bavarian Illuminati of Weisshapt's used as well, the circumpunct as their symbol but . . . as drawn IN RED BLOOD of their supplicant members ?!?

    And also, that only a generation later, this hidden Red Terror WAS SPAWNED right in Carl's successors' Landgraviate!

    (There IS no simple 'theorizing to be found here for it is documented fact. Throw-in also the fact of the uniform very dark presence of 'The Rothschids' themselves, and matters truly DO morph-to-ugly.)

    As a result of the long chain of effects and their preceding causations, and nearly every bit on account of that very festering scurrilousness, we had long ago captured legislatures voting into law, all manner of most mad, wild statutes. These seeking mostly to compel compliance by prohibitions, according to wild imaginings of dreams of Heaven as might be forced down upon earth by various of lofty ruminants' "minds", these spasms-peculiar being set free finally from males' opinionated control, and logical "tyranny"! This being now all given-over to corporal power for full implementation and, my-oh-my, how they DO implement!

    (By division this: one half of males WITH deadly weaponry, as poised-against the rest WITHOUT! How efficient.)

    THIS would be THAT inheritance brought us (our less-than-half actually) by those RED atheistical circumpunctualists!

    Do you LIKE it, chaps? The modern plan? If so, then do nothing and ignore-away for "Ignorance is bliss." Verily, they of yellowed jaundiced blood need not apply; back into belly-crawling positions fellows, for your Masters' footsteps fast approach, and beckon as only those shrill Sirens can do. Such creatures the Gods made to drive men mad by their sound alone! (Does it work still?)

    This topic is one of the better of the uniformly excellent ones to be found here.

    This one of present has inspired this writer to new but doubtless unwise heights of dangerous boldness. (It is truth that the truly wise do not speak truths to power, however diaphanous and seeming-remote that may be. Call me 'fool', if you dare.)

    CHEERS!

    James

    ReplyDelete
  13. I woudn't dare James! Besides you write in the language of a sage and I've never heard of a foolish sage.

    And as for Anonymous's fears that the party's over - no way! My latest build has opened my eyes anew and I have seen something that has been staring me in the face for the best part of 35 years and didn't notice! I'm away for a few days but I'll get back to work as soon as I return. I'll leave everything here ticking over and sort out any problems on my return.

    JC

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. John,
      I hope it was an ah-hah moment while watching one of the suggested videos!
      I'm already off musing about the "Columbia Wheel".
      The 007 insignia looks like a hand shielding a pair of eyes while trying to see something in the distance, or more spy like, while trying to peer through a window.

      Delete
    2. I would think the 007 reference is right up your alley guys. Should be an easy clue to solve.

      Delete
  14. This blogs topic is the same as the one that tg's first comment appeared on (see Aug 30 2011)! I think it was concluded back then that Bessler's 'circumpunct symbol' with reverse side R's was his way of saying he had built a wheel able to turn in two directions. He considered this a 'proof positive' that his wheels were not powered by windup clockworks mechanisms. But its not really proof because Wagner explained how a windup wheel could also be made to turn in both directions. Notice that Bessler's 'circumpunct symbol' with the two reversed R's does not appear until after he comes out with the Merseburg wheel because before that all he had was one way wheels.

    mike

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How strange you should think the two topics the same, mike/TG. This topic discusses the alternative use of the circumpunct symbol, a word I never used. The previous one did not.

      JC

      Delete
    2. Mike does make an interesting point. If the use of the double R's did not take place until after the Merseburg wheel was introduced, then I would say there is a very good chance it's use designates a bi-directional wheel and not some internal lever mechanism. After seeing the double R's, I was sure it represented a feature of the mechanism, but now after hearing what mike said, that makes much more sense, especially because of the timing of both.

      Delete
    3. Continuing on with the astronomy/astrology theme,
      as John said the circumpunct is the symbol for the Sun,
      the back to back R's the sign for Leo.
      A lion guarding the wheel's secret.
      In winter, indicated by the line "snow falls", Leo appears at the 5-6 O'clock position on the northern hemisphere star chart.
      Right where John places the kiiking action on his wheel design,
      along with,
      Cancer (= crab = sideways movement)
      Canis Major & Minor (= a tail wagging dog)
      Gemini the twins (= pairs )
      Coincidences ?

      Delete
    4. Nearly forgot, my notes are a bit muddled!
      Sign for Cancer, 69 sideways, move the symbols apart sideways, like a crab = two balanced weight arms!
      Sign for Gemini, II, two (broken) columns!
      Coincidences?

      Delete
    5. I don't know whether the back-to-back 'R's only came after the Merseberg wheel, but I would point out that two 'R's are the result of the application of the simple substitution cipher which originated from the Hebrew alphabet.

      Bessler added an additional letter 'E' which stands for Ernst, to his existing initial letter 'E', right at the beginning of his career as the inventor of a PM machine. The letter 'E's were then able to be substituted for the letter 'R's, so he already had the two letter 'R's right from the beginning.

      It is possible that the idea of reversing one of them came after the invention of the bi-directional Mersberg wheel.

      JC

      Delete
    6. The german word for wheel begins with the letter R so two R's facing in opposite directions means a two way wheel contained two wheels that were set up to naturally want to turn in opposite directions. That is a two way wheel contained two one way wheels that exactly balanced each other out when the whole two directional wheel was stationary. When a two way wheel was given a push this changed. One of the wheels was disabled while the other was allowed to run the entire wheel. This situation was automatically reversed when a two way wheel was stopped and then given a push in the opposite direction. A mechanism like this suggests that each one way wheel by itself was just a simple overbalanced type of wheel. If so then this means it is possible to make such a wheel and Bessler did it. Study tg's comments. They will get you moving in the right direction.

      mike

      Delete
    7. I wonder how tg is doing now? I guess he's stuck too like everyone else or we would have heard from him somewhere.
      The two R's could have represented the two way wheels or a code or a logo with the circumpunct, but we'll never know for sure since he didn't say what they meant. We'll also never know for sure if the two way wheels were one way wheels back-to-back, since he didn't say.

      Delete
    8. Hmmm, well lets ask. How you doing mike, I mean TG, I mean Ken?

      Delete
    9. You have it all wrong. Mike doesn't know he is TG. I think he's suffering from some type of split personality disorder or something. He is split at least 3 ways that we know of. When you want to talk to TG, you have to ask Mike real nice like to let TG come out and play.

      Delete
  15. " The Riddle " and the essence of our endeavor is to discover how a single weight can cause a driving force in a 360 degree rotation . Of course it can't by itself but " by WHAT (?) wonderful deeds this heaviness returns to the center and that is driven the height " .
    CW

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. CW,
      it's funny you should mention one weight, I did wonder if the circumpunct was a pointer to the fact that it was the action/movement of one weight that turns the wheel.
      The dot representing the one weight inside.
      In my musing on the "Columbia Wheel" I was thinking that one weight provided the movement, the others balance each other out, so that it only needs a very slight action on the wheel to move it, this also points to the idea that an odd number of weights are used.
      I do not subscribe to all the astrology mumbo-jumbo, it's just that I found a lot of connections to it.
      The passages also point to what kind of movements are taking place i.e.
      A shotgun shoots = a perfect example of action/reaction.
      A crab = sideways movement.
      Rain/snow falls one falls gently, the other hard.
      Anvil blows = percussion.
      Lazy horses, horses do the work, the word inertia comes from the Latin word, iners, which means lazy, so heavy weights that would usually laze about, resisting movement, are what carry out the work. etc. etc.

      Delete
    2. The circumpunct is the point from which the excess force flows. This will only make sense when you come to understand the principle, unfortunately, studying this material will not lead you in the direction you need to go.

      Delete
    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    4. Well I don't know where over there is, but over here we say bongalongadingdong ...

      Delete
    5. Chris,
      to see how one single weight can rotate 360 degrees, see
      http://www.robert-doerner.de/en/driven_pendulum/driven_pendulum.html
      and select as attractor from UPOd onwards.
      However, I think our task is somewhat different, easier most likely: if you look at the Apologia wheel, 3 weights offset at 120 degrees drive the wheel, i.e. you only need a 120 degree swing until the next weight takes over.

      Delete
    6. Mimi,
      did you see my posting under "the musing on pairs" article?
      Dated 4 May 00:46.
      Maybe the completely wrong idea, but you may be able to give it a tweak.

      Delete
    7. The AP wheel is a symbolic representation of the trefoil and nothing else ... connecting God to wheel .
      CW

      Delete
    8. Or I could be wrong about that .
      CW

      Delete
    9. I think CW is relly right cause hes really smart an I remember Mester Bessler telling me he says this connectitlyness thing with the weigts. I want to tell all you to lesten to CW he says he has a Bessler wheel so he is smartere to me and you.

      Delete
    10. Lol... it's all funny business to some of you guys ... drink a beer , build a wheel , tell a joke , build a wheel . No wonder you can't figure it out ... you're inconsistent !
      CW

      Delete
    11. CW,
      Lupus et Agnus.

      Delete
    12. Inconsistent as in "Hey eveyone, I've got the solution ... oops I was wrong. You guys suck, I'm the best. By the way, I've really found the solution this time ... oh maybe not. F you guys. You are losers I'm leaving and I'm never coming back. I'm back and Bessler was great because he found the solution. Guess what guys, I found the solution, you know what that means, and I am sure this time ... hmmm, Bessler may have been a fraud!"

      Delete
    13. Inconsistent is not advancing in your thoughts about how this thing works . You , and people like you act like someone owes you something . As if you can criticize someone who doesn't put their ideas out there for your drooling critique . And you don't even have the balls to put a name to your comments . You can think " that was me " or " I told him " but after all no one knows who you are . You are a coward .
      CW

      Delete
    14. BTW , as far as me saying Bessler could have been a fraud ...didn't happen . I was just pointing out my impression of some things that were in the AP that seemed suspect to me .
      CW

      Delete
    15. CW said "When I read AP I noticed four outstanding No-No's of basic Christian Taboo...I am not saying that these things point to fraud but they are suspect IMO to anyone who knows about the Bible".

      You are correct. You didn't say Bessler was a fraud. You said his actions were suspect. Hints of fraud shall based on the evidence. Apparently enough for you to tell your daughter that "Perpetual motion , if not impossible is improbable by human hands . Chances are no one will discover it".


      Delete
    16. CW said "Inconsistent is not advancing in your thoughts about how this thing works . You , and people like you act like someone owes you something . As if you can criticize someone who doesn't put their ideas out there for your drooling critique . And you don't even have the balls to put a name to your comments . You can think " that was me " or " I told him " but after all no one knows who you are . You are a coward ."

      Wrong O, this is all about payback for your childish behavior here and at BW. We want nothing other than to point out the errors of your ways. We are your past, present, and future conscious.

      Delete
    17. You sound like the ghosts from a famous Charles Dickens story ... and Austin Powers all rolled into one . Are you wearing chains AND bell-bottoms by chance ?
      CW

      Delete
    18. Bell bottoms. That was an embarrassing time in my life that I would rather not think about. I do like the Austin Powers reference though. Well, I'm off to do some shagging baby.

      Delete
    19. Well it was a bust.

      Delete
    20. Maybe you should shave your chest hair.

      Delete
  16. A sea-ship could be made into a time travel machine.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Ealadha,
      I posted a website address where you can read the Urantia Book online,
      it's above this, dated 7 May 22:50,
      hope you enjoy.

      Delete
    2. Hi again Ealadha,
      I just remembered, they tried that in 1943, using the warship USS Eldridge.
      It was called the Philadelphia Experiment, it didn't end too well.
      Maybe with today's technology, and using a nuclear submarine's reactors for extra power, along with it's already reinforced hull, they may get lucky this time.
      Check out the experiment to see what I'm on about.
      The Nazi's had another experiment called Die Glocke (The Bell).
      No-one knows how that turned out, but the demise of Adolf Hitler is still surrounded by mystery.
      Check Die Glocke out as well.

      Delete
    3. Ealadha, you may want to check out this link.

      http://www.gotoquiz.com/what_mental_disorder_do_you_have

      Delete
    4. I was doing research into the possibility of time travel years and years ago when I used to live in germany.
      I remember there were time travelers from the future trying to steal my inventions, however they did not succeed.

      Delete
  17. Anyone know what text/book this statement came from?

    "The internal structure of the machine is of a nature according to the laws of mechanical perpetual motion, so arranged that certain disposed weights, once in rotation, gain force from their own swinging, and must continue this movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement."
    - Johann E. E. Bessler
    , 1717

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    Replies
    1. After more searching I found references that this came from DT, but when I search JC's DT book, I don't find this. Maybe it's in the translation. I did find this.

      "The internal structure of the wheel is designed in such a way
      that weights (page 20) applied in accordance with the laws of
      Perpetual Motion, work, once a small impressed force has
      caused the commencement of movement, to perpetuate the
      said movement and cause the rotation to continue indefinitely –
      that is, as long as the device retains its structural integrity"

      I will keep searching, but any help would be appreciated.

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    2. Sorry, bad wording on my part. The second statement is what i found in my purchased version of DT (from JC). The first statement is what I am searching for. I'm guessing the first is a different interpretation since it is similar in wording an meaning, but I'm only guessing.

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    3. I've found enough information on BW to say that the two statements are different interpretations. The first being a Henry Dirks/Goez and Beauchamp translation. The second being a John Collins/Mike Senior translation.

      The first interpretation with the phrase "gain force from their own swinging" really is the most critical part in my view. The fact that BW forum members keep bringing it up and relying on it to make points suggest they believe this interpretation is the correct one.

      However, after reading 0ystein's recent post above where he used the phrase "impress(force)" suggests he may be relying on the JC translation. The use of "impress (force)" could be a coincidence I guess. Maybe 0ystein can weigh in on this.





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    4. Primemignonite9 May 2013 at 06:08

      Zoelra has posted well and sincerely here three times. Might anyone like to respond with some pertinent reflection or, an idea or two? (I myself have not much to offer regarding it.)

      J.

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    5. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    6. Hello, I have gone through the opriginal text and translated some of the vital lines.

      Bessler does write both "des schwunges" and "imprimiert"
      But des schwunges does not have to mean "the swing" http://de.thefreedictionary.com/schwunges
      It could mean: the inner force, the work-force, the momentum, or the swing, or a general curved movement..

      Here are the reault I got:
      (The PM principle....)work in such a way that disposed weights (themself) after recieving a single rotation or after once a "imprimiert" force "the movement/inner force,curved motion, swing etc" repeatedly drives, and the revolution have to continue. As long as the internal structure........My principle of overweight...

      (The first part may describe how to start the bi-directional wheels by hand, or it could be a description of what the mechanisms inside need to do before working.. we can not know.)

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    7. I think that is one of Bessler's most important non-cryptic clues. A while ago I made my own translation from the Latin version of what he wrote, as follows:—

      "The interior of the tympanum or structure of the wheel is constructed so that weights, disposed according to the à priori scientifically demonstrable laws of mechanical perpetual motion, and given a single impulse, impel rotation of the wheel without cessation, and effect perpetual motion certainly for as long as the ability of its structure to remain unaltered and well arranged is not relinquished; without any further assistance and also without any other prime mover that requires replenishment.

      Certainly, in all kinds of self-moving machines that may be found such as clocks, springs of one kind or another unwind and require rewinding, or else weights hang, which when fallen down have to be pulled back up.

      On the contrary my machine, to which no exterior prime mover is added, with no external mechanism to be seen, or any similar moving things where the force of the weights lasts only as long as the chains impelling motion, on the contrary its own prime mover is perpetual yet in motion, or in any event they [ejusdem — the weights] constitute essential and intrinsic parts, in that in themselves they maintain and exercise force and effort giving forth universal motion received unceasingly (certainly for as long as they remain out of the center of gravity), thus in this machine they are enclosed and well ordered with each other so that they never attain equilibrium or a punctum quietus, [“resting point”] but in themselves and at the same time search for perpetuity; with wonderful rapidity proportional to their magnitude and that of the machine in which they are enclosed, and so other weights, attached [+ vorticis verticalis] to the exterior axle, must accordingly be driven into motion."

      It's a fairly literal translation. I'm not sure how to interpret that phrase "vorticis verticalis" near the end. (Literally it would refer to the weights being attached in a vertical vortex. Maybe it refers to the old idea of motion of an object inducing or entraining motion in another? But that's just a guess).

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    8. Using Latin from the time we can find that vorticis verticalis could translate to:

      "highest turning-point, overhead"

      Vorticis <--> Vertex <--> Vortex <--> highest turningpoint in a curve.
      http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=vertex

      Verticalis: Overhead (also comes from Vertex) Later in the 1700s it also started to mean straight up/down.

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    9. Great from the latin translation by 'Arktos': '...thus in this machine they (the weights) are enclosed and well ordered with each other so that they never attain equilibrium or a punctum quietus, [“resting point”] but in themselves and at the same time search for perpetuity; with wonderful rapidity proportional to their magnitude...' Bessler directly tells us here that the center of gravity of the weights is kept away from the punctum quietus which is a point directly below the axle as the wheel takes off with 'wonderful rapidity'. There can be no dobut here that he is describing an overbalanced type wheel. Now all you have to do is figure out how to make your wheel's weights 'well ordered with each other' so they do the same thing. Tg kept emphacising that cords and springs were how it was done.

      mike

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    10. Øystein, That could be right. Bessler did drive stampers, i.e. weighted objects which move straight up and down, using cams on the wheel's external axle.

      My suspicion is that there are differences in what Bessler wrote in DT in Latin and what he wrote in German; there may even be some important clues in one language omitted from the other. (Unfortunately my Latin is mediocre, and my German very poor!)

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    11. One possebilety is that Bessler is saying that the weights pass their highest vertical turning-point on the descending side of the wheel. It is unclear if by Verticalis he meant straight up/down because that was not the traditional meaning of the word at the time. It started to be used as we know vertical today some time through the 1700s. First time ever recorded in 1704.

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    12. Thanks Primemignonite and everyone else for the replies.

      The phrase "gain force from their own swinging" is so different in meaning than the other interpretations. Weights traveling in a circular path gain momentum and kinetic energy, but I would not refer to those as forces. The only gain in force is centrifugal force. If "gain force from their own swinging" is an accurate interpretation, then this is a very important clue as it could suggest CF plays a role in operation of the wheel.

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    13. Mike ,
      Is it not likely a mistake to assume that Bessler is describing a machine that runs on over-balance in which a single pair of weights are dependent each on the other for their very movement , or some multiplication of this principle , since , from the beginning has been sought in likewise fashion and to no avail ? I say , for the sake of progress , no , there has to be a better arrangement available to us whereby the burden of s strictly binary orbit can be relieved from the falling weights and perhaps placed upon some other more capable dynamic constituent .
      CW

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  18. "The AP wheel is a symbolic representation of the trefoil and nothing else ... connecting God to wheel ." - CW
    "Or I could be wrong about that ." - CW

    You are correct, you're wrong about that.

    It is not a religious symbol.
    It is not a mechanical drawing of a device. It's not something to build.
    It's not a "decoder wheel". One doesn't figure out the solution from the diagram by applying overlays of Bessler's other drawings, or geometric shapes.
    The "AP Wheel" is a diagrammatic representation of the interaction between the rudimentary "prime mover" that Bessler illustrated in Maschinen Tractate and an overbalanced wheel.
    It serves to verify that the correct method has been found. That one can now answer the question "and do you still not understand?", with "Yes, I do!"

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    Replies
    1. Hah, could it be someone sees. Do you understand the following?

      2:1 (I understand)
      4:2
      8:4
      ...

      Or more appropriately

      6:2 (for a real bang)

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    2. Who says ? You sound like Doug ... who actually has a working wheel and is hiding it from all of us .
      CW

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    3. Wait a minute... wouldn't the desired answer to "and do you still not understand?" be "No, I actually DO understand!" ??

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    4. I think way too much has been made of the AP 'wheel'. If it had anthing to do with his secret pm mechanism then he would not have shown it! To me it looks like a drawing of an iris on an eyeball. Its probably Besslers way of saying that you must study his work intensely to get any valuable info from it.

      mike

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    5. Ok, I DO understand.

      Well I don't have a working wheel, but I do have a working prime mover, and in it's simplest form, it resembles a 3 pointed star. Upon seeing this, a religious man could interpret this as a sign from God, possibly the trinity symbol, trefoil as CW suggests, or some other religious symbol. When I look at the sky, all I see is a bunch of dots, but when astronomers look, they see the constellations. We see either what we want to see or what we were trained to see. Regarding the 3 point shape, this version is the minimum configuration required to operate.

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    6. Says the man who likes to lanternise.

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    7. Well if by that you mean I am not forthcoming or are withholding details of the working prime mover, then yes, yes I am lanternising.

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    8. Zoelra, the comment is a reply to anon, 23:12, sorry it came out under your posting.

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    9. I see, well that wasn't me, but I guess the statement still holds true for me.

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    10. Lanternise, spending one's time in learned trifles, darkening counsel by words, mystifying the more by trying to unravel mysteries.

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    11. You left the following off the end of the definition.

      "... putting truths into a lantern through which, at best, we see but darkly."

      When I first read the definition I thought it meant to shed light, but not fully, as if to hide something. Now I'm not sure at all. I'm in the fog on this one.

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    12. I meant it in the way I posted the part definition, but it seems like I'm guilty of it myself! Let's call it quits, after all, it came about over an understandable mistake on my part.
      By the way, glad you checked out the info on YAHWEH/ L-O-R-D, they don't teach that in Bible School, would the "not teaching" be considered a definition of the last part of Lanternises definition?

      lol

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    13. 8 May 2013 23:12, I wrote -
      "... the rudimentary "prime mover" that Bessler illustrated in Maschinen Tractate ..."

      9 May 2013 18:38, someone wrote -
      "Says the man who likes to lanternise."

      Lanternise? No, merely a reflection a statement made 300 years ago.

      "... no illustration by itself contains a description of the motion; however,
      taking various illustrations together and combining them with a
      discerning mind, it will indeed be possible to look for a movement
      and, finally to find one in them." - note at the beginning of MT

      If you were referring to the implication at the end of my post... have I discerned it? Time will tell.

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  19. John (JC),

    I find it curious that the circumpunct that Bessler printed used a dot in the middle of some and circle for others. For example, the 'monogram' in AP has a circle. (I think it's AP, the one with the crown over it and D.M.M.P.M. under it.)

    Do you have any thoughts on dot vs. circle?

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    1. I think I should clarify that... I had it typed up and then edited it to make it 'clearer', and mucked it up. Sorry.

      Do you think that there's any significance to the difference between circumpuncts as a dot-within-a-circle and as a circle-within-a-circle, relevant to Bessler?

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    2. Hey, John, I didn't have a connection to that German library's on-line copy of AP the other day. I see now that the circle-within-a-circle 'monogram' that I'm referring to is NOT in AP. The image of the page that's in my other computer show it to be on a page number 136. I don't know which book it's in.
      :-/
      It's times like this that I wish I had all your books, not just MT...

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    3. The "circle-within-a-circle" monogram is on (original) page 136 of "Das Triumphirende..." (Page 143 of John's republication of it).

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    4. Thank you, Arktos. Yes, that's the image that I'm referring to.
      Utrecht University (Netherlands) has a copy of Das triumphirende available for on-line viewing. The page in question is here:
      http://objects.library.uu.nl/reader/index.php?obj=1874-206158&lan=en#page//66/97/18/66971890351288016757680622177258626039.jpg/mode/1up

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  20. TG and mike, you may like this as it seems along the lines of your research. If not, maybe something can be learned from it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uolz18oSseE

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    Replies
    1. 100th comment:
      For the user that posted the video zoelra linked to, note the other video he posted is the same wheel with rubber bands instead of springs. Cords amount to the same thing, Kentgmike.
      And the guy still went to the trouble of substituting the two linkages to see if it made a difference.

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  21. Three,
    Pythagoras calls three the perfect number, expressive of "beginning, middle and end".
    Wherefore he makes it a symbol of Deity. The world was supposed to be under the rule of three gods, viz, Jupiter (Heaven), Neptune (sea) Pluto (Hades).
    Jove is represented with three forked lightening, Neptune with a trident, and Pluto with a three headed dog.
    Be careful of which religion you claim three represents!

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    1. I think it is safe to assume that when we are discussing Bessler and his religious thoughts, we are referring to his religion.

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    2. With Bessler, yes I totally agree, it's when other people try to impose their religious views on things I get irked, just showing that the idea of three {The Trinity},is not exclusive to Christianity.

      To C.W. nearly all Bibles have their wording changed, check out how many times the name of YAHWEH has been substituted by the word L-O-R-D, THOUSANDS.
      The Savior's name is not J-E-S-U-S, it's Yahshua, the same as the Hebrew Bible hero of tumbling wall fame, better known to you as Joshua, there's no J in the Hebrew alphabet.

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    3. Very informative. I won't be debating biblical facts with you that's for sure.

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    4. Correction, in the Hebrew Bible they use Yehoshua, and for Joshua they use the Aramaic name Yeshua. The name is the same but they use different spellings so as to avoid confusion. Yahshua has been used since the 1950's, and is a point of debate among linguists.

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  22. If nothing else , I have learned a new word , circumpunct.
    It joins my other favorite words like dirigible and serendipity.
    Doug

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  23. It is easier , when lifting a heavy weight , to swing it out and up , that to lift it staight up, lifting it staight up can really put a stain on your back .


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    1. Are you all yet without understanding.
      I have been leaving clues for centuries now.

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    2. What, that you are mental? We already fully understand that, no clues necessary!

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    3. My apologies for my absence, guys. I'm soaking up the sun.....and certain beverages...in Spain. I'll be back next week. Be good!

      JC

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    4. To us Americans, traveling around to all those European countries sounds so cool, but really it's just the same for us when we go to another state like Illinois or Kansas right? Ok, wishful thinking ...

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  24. I've always been impressed by Bessler's Christian religiosity which would seem to make it less likely that he would be hoaxing his wheels. But, I am puzzled as to exactly what denomination he belonged. Was he Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, or some new sect floating around Europe at the time?

    mike

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    1. Good point. After reading back thru the recent posts discussing his religion I was thinking the same thing. He spent time with monks and at least one Rabbi so who knows.

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    2. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion it made it less likely he was pulling a fast one. He had some serious issues.

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    3. If Ealadha is right, Bessler was a time traveler and possibly a galactic explorer. Who knows, maybe is Xenu the great and powerful Emperor of the Scientology Empire.

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    4. Scientology was made up by a science fiction writer and is not true.
      That Joahnn Bessler invented time travel machines and perpetual motion machines is true, that is not fictional .

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  25. The Trinity teaches us that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all equal and ONE.

    Just conjecture here, but the 3 rays of the AP wheel represent the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all pointing inwards toward the ONE. Interestingly, the angle of each ray is 30 degrees and not some other measurement as shown in the multitude of Trinity symbols. This leaves each blackened section with an angle measurement of 90 degrees. A 3:1 ratio. 3 being the 1. Is this ratio significant in the design of the wheel or possibly the prime mover?

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    1. I measure the angles as 20-100, not as 30-90.

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    2. Thanks Mimi, not sure how I missed that. So we are at a 5:1 ratio. Well there's that 5 again. I still believe the AP wheel represents the basic design of the prime mover (a 2:1 ratio). I'm not implying 2 dropping while 1 rises, but something different. A 5:1 ratio prime mover has more components. I will continue to investigate.

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    3. Hi, good to be back! Mimi, take a look at thisd page from one of my websites. It gives my findings reference thew AP wheel. http://www.theorffyreuscode.com/html/apologia_wheel.html

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  26. Oh good grief,..we're being invaded by pedlers!
    John,..please bring back the password!

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    Replies
    1. Agreed, anyone that wanted to post with their account could and did.

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  27. Welcome back John. I vote for a new topic tomorrow. The circumpunct has sputtered out.

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  28. The Apologia wheel also has a total of six segments. Would that mean it represents the fallen man, too?

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  29. Maybe if I keep posting, this guy will give up.

    Vertical motion and horizontal motion have no effect on each other in a body in motion; they are independent motions.

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  30. After studying theology for a while Bessler probably thought he had all of the answers as to what 'real' Christianity meant and how it should be practiced. Of course after announcing his 'revelations' he would have immediately turned himself into a heretic and a persona non grata as far as his local Christian congregations were concerned. He probably was a devout Chistian but an outcast forced to practice his own brand of the faith by himself. I'm even surprised that he did not go off and start his own church rather than going into medicine and mechanics. But if he had we would not be here now!

    I'm not convinced the AP 'wheel' is a mechanical wheel at all but I do agree that it might have something to do with a 'triune' god that some Christians (like Catholics) believe in. Others see the Bible verses suggesting 'that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all equal and ONE' as only meaning that there are three separate divine beings with equal powers that are in agreement on their mission on Earth and working together as a team to accomplish it. If Bessler believed in a 'triune' god then he probably started out as a Catholic and was one through adolesence until he began his own study of religion. I don't doubt his sincerity or honesty as far as religion was concerned.

    mike

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Bessler’s Clues Here and on Besslerwheel forum

I’ve decided to go back to my original plan which was to share everything I’ve discovered and know, or believe about Bessler’s wheel.  It ha...