I've done some work on this and I thought it might be of interest. If you use the drawings or discuss it anywhere else I'd appreciate due acknowledgement and a link to this blog.
JC
A blog about Johann Bessler and the Orffyreus Code and my efforts to decipher it. I'll comment on things connected with it and anything I think might be of interest to anyone else.
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Tuesday 28 February 2017
Trading Width and Height, a Curiousity.
This subject regularly pops up on the besslerwheel forum but no progress has been made in finding a way to use the principle to advantage. A few years ago I found something I thought might have some mileage, but I've never seen it discussed so I decided to offer it here.
In the drawing below, the curved red arrow in fig 1 shows the path of a weight on the end of a lever, starting at the twelve o’clock position it falls to three o’clock. The green lines show that the width and the height measurements are the same. The letter 'C' is supposed to represent the centre of a wheel and is therefore at the point of rotation of a proposed wheel upon which the mechanism is mounted
In the second drawing below the upper portion of the red curved line, shows by the green lines that the weighted lever has fallen a shorter distance than it has moved horizontally. On the other hand the lower portion of the red curved line shows by means of the blue lines, that the horizontal distance is much shorter than the vertical distance.
Can we use this to design a mechanical advantage? Arranged on a revolving wheel it might perhaps be possible.
I've done some work on this and I thought it might be of interest. If you use the drawings or discuss it anywhere else I'd appreciate due acknowledgement and a link to this blog.
JC
I've done some work on this and I thought it might be of interest. If you use the drawings or discuss it anywhere else I'd appreciate due acknowledgement and a link to this blog.
JC
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Hi John
ReplyDeleteDo this concept acts as Your final "disain base", witch is under construction now?
Eastlander
No. I don't think I'd be posting info on it if it was.
DeleteJC
It's a little like gearing, the weight has moved further horizontally bit has created less torque on the wheel, but the opposite is true of the blue line.
ReplyDeleteTwo things come to mind,
ReplyDelete1, For a lighter weight to lift a heavier weight, with a lever, the lighter side has to be longer, so therefore has to move further.
2, On Edward Somerset's wheel, which supposedly ran for a long time, he used a long and a short chain to suspend the weights from two offset pegs, one nearer the rim than the other.
I don't know if either of these two thoughts can be adapted to this phenomenon, but it might be worth thinking about.
John, do you seriously still think of a possible scenario for any advantage by shifting weights in relation to their own drop? Isn't it already proven that no matter when and how you shift any weight in a certain angle, it doesn't change the output result? I hardly believe that the classical weight-shifter design has any chance.
ReplyDeleteIn your second drawing both lines are showing the same loss in summary for the wheel. The rules are always the same. If you want the weight to go away from the center shaft, it gains movement in wheel's turning direction. If you want it to come closer to the center it loses movement in wheel's turning direction. To have any advantage from that you need the opposite action. That's, at least, my understanding of what falling weights in a wheel are good for.
Every weight which drops in any wheel won't support continuous rotation. To shift a weight by another weight makes no difference. It simply has no useful effect.
Why people still looking for such designs?
The answer is no S.O.P.M. I gave up that scenario a long time ago. My current thinking is completely different and so far I haven't seen anyone describe it, not even close. However I cannot believe that there isn't someone studying the same principle as I am, and I suspect it's only a mattter of time before it becomes public.
DeleteAs for the above, I just thought it was an interesting feature, but a dead end on its own.
JC
Luckily - that's good! No doubt, you're not the only one. Unfortunately most people are wasting their time while studying all these moribund principles again and again, thinking they get the solution by tweaking it. Time is running...
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteBTW, Besslers secret key word could be 'wind' - but not from a clockmakers perspective!
ReplyDeleteLOL! As in windy rhetoric?
DeleteJX
My fault :-D
DeleteWhat was meant is to wind up something. If I think about what this can do in a wheel, then the solution is obvious. Isn't it?
Bessler was a mechanical wizard. He was also human which leads us to the point that after he was able to achieve working mechanism you just cannot keep that thought out of everything that you think. He did a phenomenal job of disguising those thoughts, but even the best effort cannot keep those thoughts out. Each one of the drawings in MT has some genetic line back to the principle. Our task is to determine which ones to overlook and which ones to grasp and hold dear
ReplyDeleteYou are quite right... Clues are strewn all over Bessler literature.... With discerning eyes one can make out something or the other...and, finally make out the movement...You really said it right...It is up to an individual whether to grasp or reject accordingly... Bessler did give away many things...But one thing is really baffling...How come, no one has been able to get at it so far?...Is there any curse behind the secret?...Did Bessler know the outcome in advance about the future failures of all would be inventors?...Why really we aren't anywhere closer to the truth?...Is greed an evil root?...
DeleteWhen there is present one of next mental things, then this thing would not happen. Even there is working proof of it. Do not want, do not know, do not care.
DeleteThe lovely peacefulness seems to be holding. So much the better.
ReplyDeleteI notice that Suresh Kumar has posed more than a few questions of pertinent quality. Let me take a stab or two at them, if I might?
"How come, no one has been able to get at it so far?..."
Possibly because so many others that are in pursuit, are so very dissimilar to Bessler as an organ builder. The art of the organ building vocation teaches it's apprentices of very many separate construction disciplines, such a combination of which cannot be equaled by any other vocation. Of this I know because having BEEN ONE.
"Is there any curse behind the secret?..."
Heavens! Hopefully not.
"Did Bessler know the outcome in advance about the future failures of all would be inventors?..."
This one implies they you accept, Suresh, that possibly Bessler was possessed-of prognosticative powers. At this, then, I would refer any ponderers to that famous most wise advisement as Hamlet gave to his student fellow, Horatio: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." That should about cover it.
"Why really we aren't anywhere closer to the truth?..."
Basically because of such effects as are caused by Horatio's as-yet insufficient dreams, as is the very case with most all of the Bessler secret chasers?
And, the best saved for last:
Is greed an evil root?...
It would appear to be the case, this and it's wicked sister hypocrisy, contributing much to the aggregate of exceeding tragedy.
If pressed just-so, what might I humbly advise as a path-dextral headed for the sovereign truth that is our mystery?
Well, it would be this: resultantly work for one part energy IN in both cases; one half part OUT CCW; and one and one half parts OUT CW. Attain that, and most assuredly you will have it, all the rest being but buttoning-up and fancying.
As per usual whenever I post generally, I'll be expecting LEADEN SILENCE to be my sole reward. Such is the innate, sad smallness of my fellow Humanity. Not to fuss though, for after a while one becomes comfortably inured to it, expecting no more nor better.
This, from The Sermon on the Mount as reported said by Jesus, applies doubtless-so here:
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. . . ."
Yes, into pieces.
Well, thanks anyway... But your language being too high and formal little could I make out....
DeleteJames, I am glad to hear of your work on the replication of many, many parts out of wood just like he did. His skill level was unprecedented for his time. The pipe organ, in his time, was the most complex device to create and took enormous patience. The replication of all of those pieces required the discipline that only a master craftsman can create with his hands. All of this simulation stuff is interesting but there is no path that will allow you to actually build a wheel except with extremely skilled hands . I know a lot of folks that can do the sims but the skilled hands are another layer that most do not have a clue about. Thanks for your good post and stimulation
ReplyDeleteWhy don't we all just wait for Bessler to come back to life on earth and ask him then to show everyone how he did it?
ReplyDeleteI seriously doubt anyone on this forum will produce a working gravity wheel during 2017.
Let's just ask Bessler when he comes back.
Is that too much to ask?
You could be right... I personally believe this is what is going to happen finally... Clues are misinterpreted... People are misguided...All this only add to the much confusion already in existence... Sometimes, when someone comes up with a good suggestion it is downplayed... The Many years that have passed and countless discussions on the matter with no progress bears witness....We have to bring some change in our approach...Many have lost patience and gone silent... Despite living in a great communication filled era there is a lot of miscommunication... Perhaps as tightly pointed out by JM above..There exists insufficient dreams...
ReplyDeleteRead as RIGHTLY pointed out by...
ReplyDeleteWHAT......... you have to be kidding If you do believe, and you know that we have more technology available, supplies and phenomenal materials then we can do this. NO if and buts or maybe It's so simple a carpenters boy could replicate it. Come on This is like a personal challenge that Bessler has thrown down for the salvation of our planet. There is really a lot at stake here. So, put your thinking hats on and get on with it. It is going to happen this year.......I can feel it
ReplyDeleteWell spoken Gravittea!
DeleteJC
Every mechanical action has a counterpart in nature. They occur in nature, we can observe them, understand them. But where is Bessler's PM action in nature? I can only think one thing; This will be very very very speculative but Bessler may have found the classical mechanical model of the atom...
ReplyDeleteBS
I think the internal mechanism resembles the solar system...
DeleteGood point Suresh, that's also possible.
DeleteBS
To John comment:
ReplyDelete"My current thinking is completely different and so far I haven't seen anyone describe it, not even close. However I cannot believe that there isn't someone studying the same principle as I am..."
I know that here is some type of cat and mouse game, at the moment in the air, between different claim makers. But let me try to describe here shortly your possible setup, that I have visualized in my mind.
One wheel consist of 5 pendulum like mechanisms. One pendulum mechanism have build up from nine (lever like) pieces and they are loaded with two weights - weight 1 and weight 2. So in your wheel setup is totally 10 weights in 5 so called pendulums. Weights arranged to one pendulum this way, where they form together visually unified entirety mass. So one pendulum total visible mass to wheel axle is - weight 1 + weight 2.
Those weights heaviness ratio can describe as - weight 1 = a, weight 2 = a x 10 (approx). Coming from one pendulum mechanism virtue, weight 2 can with his mass, arrange easily weight 1. This all depend on each pendulum weight 2 position to axle and ground. Where weight 1 can be moved from one end positon x - outermost, to other weight 1 position y - innermost.
There may compare two pendulum vis-a-vis setup this way, that weights 1 acts always as levers, weights 2 acts like roberval balance. As weights 2 acts always as roberval balance, there is no any side effect from them, to affect wheel balance, even they are much heavier then weight 1.
Wheel turning effect achieved ONLY by weights 1 movements. Exactly from pendulums 2:3 allocation ratio in wheel and from weight 1 connection angle, or here may call it work angle, to wheel axle.
Each pendulum is connected also with one spring, to wheel mechanism, at one special point.
Only thing that I do not know now from your setup John. That is, for what purpose there need cords in your setup? I understand from your little verbal fight with KB, that there is no used any ropes in Bessler wheels. But seems that there is some cords instead of ropes anyway, in your setup. :(
Of course, your final setup may be something else, then here described one. I just try to bring out some little different point of view here.
PLMKRN
Interesting post PLMKRN. I can't comment other than to say, cords or ropes, it doesn't matter, either will do. I appreciate that you are using English which is probably not your first language, so I must read your post several times to understand your explanation. Good job.
DeleteJC
Hi PLMKRN,
DeleteVery good for first attempt, your not that far away, the cords or ropes are connected between 10no of weights, with 2 weights connected onto one arm (mechanism) so as one set of weights drop they are both on the outside of the wheel (acting in pairs), but has they rise one is on the outer rim and one's on a inner rim.
Thanks John!
Delete"Good job" - means I get some type of hit here, regarding how I describe your wheel setup?! Even it´s hard to read. Sorry, I try my best.
There is lot more to say about your possible setup. Example about nine pieces you plan to use in your one pendulum. 9 pieces sounds good choice, but this on paper only or in 2D environment.
In real world or 3D setup, I suggest to put some pieces more to one pendulum. Witch idea is to make all pendulum setup more stable in their work action. One main Bessler clue is playing big role here.
Actually, this description that I have written here previously is taken from my own working simulation setup. And I do not use any ropes/cords there. There is no need of them.
I know that even our setups may be with almost similar work principle, there is hundreds of different variations to put them together or build up this correctly, as lot of those kind of setups do not work.
PLMKRN
One may find it very hard to believe but it is a fact that soul lives in body and when body dies soul migrates to another body.. Bessler's soul has done the same thing by all means... Right now it must be in some body... Gautam Buddha has looked back into his 500 previous lives through meditation...If one wants to know if Bessler's soul is within him he just has to approach a good past life regression isn't and get himself check...This way he can also get a glimpse into the wheel interior if he was Bessler.... Unbelievable?.... Believe it...
DeleteRead as past life regressionist...
DeleteRead as checked.. Sorry about typo..
DeleteThe problem here is trying to go from 12:00 to 3:00, why not 2:00 to 5:00? Moving from 2:00 to 5:00 is the same distance from center to 12:00! The difference is the speed of both movements. You can lift the distance of the radius and drop the distance of the radius.
ReplyDelete