Sunday, 19 May 2019

Is Gravity the Weakest Force? - Not Always!

Many people have suggested that because gravity is the weakest force compared to the other three; the strong nuclear force, the electromagnetic force and the weak nuclear force; it must be unsuitable as an aid to generating electricity through Bessler’s wheel.  But this is not the whole picture. This kind of fact is typical of such erroneous generalisations which permeate this subject.

If, for instance, you could take two protons and hold them very close together, they would exert several forces on each other. Because they both have mass, the two protons exert gravitational attraction on each other. Because they both have a positive electric charge, they both exert electromagnetic repulsion on each other. Also, they both exert attraction via the strong nuclear force. Because the strong nuclear force is the strongest at short distances, it dominates over the other forces and the two protons become bound, forming a helium nucleus (typically a neutron is also needed to keep the helium nucleus stable). Gravity is so weak at the atomic scale that scientists can typically ignore it without incurring significant errors in their calculations.

However, on an astronomical scale, gravity does dominate over the other forces. There are two reasons for this: 1) gravity has a long range, and 2) there is no such thing as negative mass. Each force dies off as the two objects experiencing the force become more separated. The rate at which the forces die off is different for each force. The strong and weak nuclear forces are very short ranged, meaning that outside of the tiny nuclei of atoms, these forces quickly drop to zero.  

The earth and sun are far too distant from each other for their nuclear forces to reach each other. In contrast to the nuclear forces, both the electromagnetic force and gravity have effectively infinite range and die off in strength as 1/r2.

So when we say that gravity is the weakest of the four forces it depends on where and how it is being compared.  We already use gravity in numerous ways via an intermediary such as water, and in the case of Bessler's wheel the intermediary is a system of weights.

If one of Bessler's four pound weights was dropped on your foot, you might not think gravity was a weak force.


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                                     my granddaughter's treatment for CRPS and FND
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JC

61 comments:

  1. Here Here!!! Sam Peppiatt

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  2. Hi John .. I think the pros and cons regarding gravity force being used to produce electricity has always been to do with efficiency. Or more precisely 'energy density'. As a capacitor can quickly take up and release large amounts of energy, compared to the best battery available today. But the capacitor cannot store much energy to be discharged over long periods of time, unlike a battery. So the argument about any energy technology efficiency is about output for volume, over time. A weight can be hoisted to a vertical height, and dropped. It takes so many Joules of Work to lift it. And it releases that same energy in the fall (less frictional dissipative losses). And if it can do this many times per minute/hour then we know its power function (rate of doing Work). A hydro dam can produce enough energy per hour to power cities. But takes an enormous volume of water stored, replenished, and continuously falling. Closer to home a small volume battery has probably got more energy/power than a Bessler wheel, but limited discharge time. The advantage is that the BW doesn't need to be recharged or have a known source of energy replenished, and other environmental advantages etc. Whether its large diameter (which is entirely necessary due to mechanical constraints imo) is efficient in terms of space taken to power output for an average household the consumer would ultimately decide, imo.

    -fletcher

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    1. Hi fletch, I understand your point and I agree that a Bessler Wheel would need to be pretty big to supply a household with all its energy requirements. Standby diesel generators doing the same job are pretty big themselves and expensive to buy too.

      But when I posted the above blog my intention was to point out that the argument that Bessler's wheel would not provide electricity because gravity was the weakest of the four main forces, was irrelevant to the argument because gravity is the dominant force when not used on a nano scale.

      JC

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    2. Assuming a house needed 6000 watt supply, I found a diesel electric generator for sale, measuring three foot long by two and half foot wide by three foot high, and weighing over 400 lbs. costing £2000. Of course you’d have to add the electric generator to the Bessler wheel as well.

      JC

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    3. We don't know if the wheel for a household will be very big or not, since we have no idea about its internal mechanism. We don't know if we can improve and miniaturized the design and obtain much more efficient wheel.

      I think by utilizing current materials and techniques, we will obtain much more powerful wheel. Please remember, we have nanotechnolgy, MEMS and other advanced mechanical techniques.

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  4. "We have overlooked fundamentals, and have been steered away from different approaches of the effect of gravity on - compound lever systems - because it seemed intuitive that no - gain mechanically - could have been achieved."

    google compound levers - "The compound lever is a simple machine operating on the premise that the resistance from one lever in a system of levers will act as power for the next, and thus the applied force will be amplified from one lever to the next (as long as the mechanical advantage for each lever is greater than one)."

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    1. We eagerly await your divine revelations, SG. Hopefully, JC will not become too envious of your far superior knowledge of the subject!

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    2. I'll second that, Anon.

      "I will reveal . . ."

      Please!

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  6. That is generous and thorough of you Stephen. The truth is that just about every gravity wheel design uses compound levers in one form or another. The devil will be in the detail, as usual.

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  9. The wheel is setup to be in a temporary condition of being out of balance. Where a force is applied and then disappears from the weight inventory that the wheel itself feels.....

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  10. "geometry plays an important part and gives dimensional perspective"

    Stephen I am intrigued by the above statement it seems like we maybe looking in a very similar area, which is connected directly to geometry, I have been following a ratio that Bessler shows in many of his drawings which is directly connected to a geometric shape. the clue of half empty and half full had always confused me but recently it makes much more sense, anyway as always good luck to everyone on this quest :-)

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  11. It's interesting how new clues keep popping up. If you find out the mathematical/geometric difference between half full and half empty, you will almost certainly reach your goal.

    ovaron

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  12. Well, fortunately in two weeks we will be fourteen days further.

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  13. John I urge you to not disclose purely for disclosure reasons. Focus on finishing your wheel based on your current thoughts. Maybe if that fails, then think of disclosure, but don't stop working just to make a date. Please you owe yourself that.

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    1. A wise suggestion. Don't publish anything hastily. John is sure that he has known the solution for many years. It is more than logical that he should present a functioning wheel to the public. Only theories will at best interest those who have their own ideas on how it could work and who are themselves working on the solution.
      Without a functioning wheel, any theory, no matter how good it may be, is of no interest to the general public. Only the one who can present a functioning wheel has the chance to harvest the fame of the rediscovery of the Bessler wheel.

      By the way, the name of the rediscoverer will quickly disappear anyway. The real discoverer is and remains Johann Ernst Elias Bessler.

      ovaron

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    2. Anon, why-oh-why do you encourage John to not disclose? He has made very clear why he wants to. From his standpoint it is good reasoning, I believe. I cannot imagine the angst that would be produced within all, if he were to CLAIM SUCCESS and not disclose. Can't you?

      For my own part, if I were he having an operating wheel aturning before me, I would offer the knowledge of the operative motus to crowd funding for some fine amount - such being as just repayment for the consideration, effort, decades of time and talent as expended.

      That once attained as pounds, dollars or thalers, then ALL humans would be allowed the precious knowledge for doing-with as they might.

      (Dealing with an individual, or worse a naturally wicked corporation, for a like equivalent amount, I believe would be writing and signing and waving one's own death warrant, for investments MUST be protected at all costs and/or buried, and that implies the Awful Necessity's Implementation itself. No?)

      And, as for the ovaron's suggestion that ". . . the name of the rediscoverer will quickly disappear anyway. . . ." I cheekily assert that that is utter nonsense. Sorry.

      True. Bessler was the progenitor but, the redisoverer will be feted and celebrated or, reviled and hunted to his death by the massive, negatively effected, which we all know to be 'the usual suspects' but, certainly NOT ignored, nor soon-forgotten.

      John would choose to go the voluntary disclosure route, and collect the leavings by publishing, lectures or whatnot. (And, of course, a nice OBE for him.) For myself, being not so very well-off as he, otherwise options would present themselves as absolute imperatives. Just the way that cookie crumbles.

      Will alacrity unbridled, we await the events of grandeur of the coming June 6 . . .

      James

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  14. Yes the patent trolls and other parasites that make up much of the membership here and on bw.com are only looking to steel your idea. Agree, just finish your wheel.

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  15. look like new kind of excuse comng for john to show nothing on sixth of june. fans don't wnat to see it so thiefs can steal his idea! this could be best yet excuse. like i said you not see anything this time or any time. he might asked fans to urge him with posts here to make no show so it will look like he does to make all them happy. lol! keep watch to see nothig on sixth ofjune just like i predict! lol! leopard dont change the spots! in place of reveal will be drip drip drip of more clues he think he find. lol!

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    1. from AP chapter 55:

      "But softly!...speak softly of all these marvels,
      lest the enemy grows wise! He will drench me with his spittle
      so that I will lose my temper and in a sudden fit,
      cast aside the mantle that conceals my wheel.
      But he shall be thwarted in his desires. "

      looks like the spittle is starting to drip off of john! to remove it he needs to reveal and risk being robbed. if he continues to conceal then it will only get thicker and drip more until he's standing in a puddle!

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    3. Thank you for the messages of support. I really appreciate it and I will do my utmost to finish my wheel in time for the 6th June 2019. As I have said many times, I will publish all that I know whether the wheel works or not, because the information is valuable, in my opinion.

      JC

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  17. Bessler tried, failed, tried, failed, failed and failed and failed and failed and failed..At least 100 times... Just stop and think silently... At least 100 wheels!
    Each trial must have taken days sometimes may be weeks...One after another, 10 years filled with epic fails...

    just unbelievable how he got there. just unbelievable...

    If John fails this time again, good for him, he is a step closer that is just it.

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  18. looks like the parasites are coming out of the woodwork crying they won't get the secret. If for no other reason I would hold off now.

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  19. John, this is your legacy. You owe no one. Work on your own wheel and finish it. The beggars will still be here waiting for hand outs.

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  21. Stephen, I presume you are directing your comment to an Anonymous post. Please identify the date/time of the post you are referring to.

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  23. I am Inquisitor. What is your question?

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    1. Stephen, first let me say I have a login here but don't regularly sign in because I usually access the site on my cell while on the run. My userid is zoelra here and on bw.com. I am an IT manager for a regional bank in the US. I began building wheels about 15 years ago. For the last 5 or so years I have focused mainly on designing and testing a mechanism I believe will function as the prime mover. This mechanism is a simplified variation of the Milkovic Two Stage Oscillator (2SO). I have a complete mathematical model of the prime mover as I see it, and it shows overunity. The secret to OU lies within one of the movements of the 2SO. I don't know if this is how Bessler's wheel worked, but based on the mathematics and my hands on testing over the years, I believe it is a viable solution, at least until I prove mechanically that it is not. I hope I answered some of your questions.

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    3. When I mention the 2SO, everyone thinks I am implying there is a swinging pendulum in the wheel. My design utilizes a weight hanging from a lever (just like a pendulum bob), and it is allowed to drop, but it stops when it reaches the opposite side of the swing. What the Milkovic 2SO and my design have in common is the CF from the moving weight pulls the pivot point down and thus you have extra force that you can use to raise additional weight.

      I see the wheel consisting of two parts, a typical OB wheel like MT13, and a set of prime movers that do the lifting of the weights in the OB wheel.

      Some day we may learn the actual design, but it will only come thru decoding AP or another Bessler work. My design fits all the clues (I think) but just because if fits the clues is no guarantee that it is a Bessler Wheel. Adding to the uncertainty is Bessler himself, who said there were different designs or principles (not sure of the exact wording).

      Years ago I made a model of the Milkovic 2SO, pretty much what you see on YouTube and spent hours just playing with it, feeling the effect of the swinging weight on the main lever (not the pendulum bob lever). I even created a feedback linkage but never got it to self run. Then one day on a business trip, I saw and experienced the principle. After that, the mathematics worked out and I was able to predict OU. It is so simple and that is why no one has thought of it before. I have spent years thinking about the final piece of the design that forces the special movement. I feel I am close but due to so many things going on in my life I have not pushed myself enough to complete it. I feel a renewed push as of late so who knows.

      I will be adding a coded message to the bottom of my posts that will include the design and the operation. If someone beats me to the punch, and it is the same design as mine, at least I can say, and prove it, that I knew the design and I am not just saying it after the fact.

      zoelra

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  25. Stephen, stop fighting anonymous, you fool!

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  26. It is a simple effort to put your design down in writing, have the outside of the envelope notarized and sealed, place it in a safety deposit box, so that when the truth is known, then you can show that your design was correct on a given date... you do not have to trust anybody and yet the truth will be sitting in a closed vessel. All of the talk that you have the design cannot be proven until you have a working model... Period No working model..... just hot air, is that right John?

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    1. if several sims of john's bessler wheel design by others show it works and the sims are precisely made and not hoaxed, then his design should be considered as sufficient proof that he has found 'the' solution to bessler's wheel even if he is personally unable to construct a physical wheel from it that actually works.

      remember bessler's example of the two spheres, one of iron and one of wax. both are equally spherical even though the wax one could not endure like the one of iron in a fire. any physical wheel john comes up with now based on his design could be analogous to the wax sphere in that it is just too poorly made to work properly. it would certainly be nice if he produces a wheel that is analogous to the iron sphere, which represents a wheel that is precisely made enough to work. but his nonworking, crudely made wheel will, in principle, be just as much a bessler type perpetual motion wheel as a more precisely made one that does work. this is because, in the future, when physical wheels using his design for bessler's wheels are more precisely made by others with better facilities and skills, they will work!

      i do not require him to have a working wheel at this time to prove he has found 'the' secret of bessler's wheels. but, i do require that i eventually see several independently made, unhoaxed sims that show the design he has works. no matter what he reveals in june, assuming he reveals anything at all, it will take, at a minimum, several months afterward to see what the independently made sims are showing. if the majority show a working design, then that will be sufficient to verify his claim. the next step is for others to step in to attempt physical builds using the design he has found. let's hope he really finally has found 'the' solution to bessler's wheels and he has not just been chasing yet another erroneous design as have so many others before him have over the centuries.

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    1. You can't reveal anything because you know it will be quickly dismissed as nonsense. So you must continue to conceal, stay mysterious, and get what little attention and ego gratification you can from that. We've seen your type before. After they get bored playing their little games, they disappear for a while and then reappear with different usernames to start all over again.

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  30. Here's one for you anonymous what's the difference between seer Sear one is to see with your eyes and one is the mechanism of a shotgun trigger system

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    1. A seer is also an eye. The text was in 18th C German and there are potentially other meanings.

      JC

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  32. John, maybe it is time to disable the Anonymous login.

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    1. I’m often tempted, but when I did s few years ago several people complained so I thought I’d just leave it until I’d had enough. 🙂

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  33. In response to the long comment by anonymous at 09.12 today, I believe that once anyone sees the solution they won’t need a sim to understand that it works.

    JC

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    1. If that's true, then I'm convinced you actually have the solution. Hats off.

      ovaron

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    3. Just because your wheel looks like it has to work means nothing. The marquis of worchester's pm wheel also looks like it has to work...until you build one and find out it's another nonrunner!

      https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alejandro_Jenkins/publication/51942050/figure/fig5/AS:632234293858306@1527747810851/Overbalanced-wheel-conceived-by-Edward-Somerset-2nd-Marquess-of-Worcester-circa-1640.png

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  34. "If you had studied the picture of Bessler in his Workshop you will notice what hangs on his walls and if you're real patient and study them you will find they have a relationship to his riddles" (Stephen Glorioso)

    You'll have to think of something better. With this hint you can explain all possible mechanisms in retrospect. Absolutely ridiculous to believe you can later prove with such hints that you knew the mechanism earlier.



    "True. Bessler was the progenitor but, the redisoverer will be feted and celebrated or, reviled and hunted to his death by the massive, negatively effected, which we all know to be 'the usual suspects' but, certainly NOT ignored, nor soon-forgotten." (James)

    Maybe. I believe however, that the wheel forever will be called "Bessler wheel" and not e.g. "Bessler-Collins wheel".
    It looks different if the rediscoverer has the wheel patented and deliberately does not refer to Bessler. But that would be the theft of intellectual property, in my opinion. Otherwise the rediscoverer will be forgotten in one generation at the latest and will not find his place in history like Bessler did for centuries.

    ovaron

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