I have taken a long hard look at sim software but I have reluctantly come to the conclusion I’m too old to start learning how to use a new piece of software just now when a solution is urgently required. I hope people don’t think I didn’t take the task seriously because I did and I read many of the comments about simming on Besslerwheel forum. I was initially determined to take the advice offered but in the end I realised it was going to take too much time to understand and learn to use it and trust what I was seeing. I think my time would be better spent building my new wheel. Despite the seeming setback that wubbly’s sim presented I am still feeling positive and optimistic that I can succeed in this venture.
Those of you who build will probably know how, at one or more points during a build, you may be considering two or more options about how to proceed. Which ever path is taken can sometimes prove wrong or not as efficient as the alternative one you dropped. Which ever path you take can lead to more choices to make. In my case I followed one path which led me via several branches, to the wrong conclusion literally, resulting in my faulty sim. My selfconfidence over-rode the analytical part of my brain and in hind sight I can see where I went wrong......I hope!
So hands-on building works for me, well I enjoy it, even if it hasn’t worked yet. Someone suggested it’s the journey I enjoy, but I’m not sure I agree, I look forward to reaching my goal and not having to work with pieces of metal and wood that have been used many times.
Back in mid 1990’s, having spent more than ten years researching his life, I was writing my first book, a biography of Johann Bessler called, “Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?” I wrote it on an early Amstrad, a nightmare of utter slowness but it was incredibly popular and I thought it was just amazing at the time. We played computer games on the ZX Spectrum which was basic compared to a calculator today, Jetset Willy I remember fondly.
My point is I had to teach myself about computers, publishing and subsequently self publishing, the internet, print on demand and arrange radio and magazine interviews at a time when all of the above was just beginning. Such information was hard to find, usually in the local library. All this, while holding down my job at Rolls Royce Aero-engines, but although I’m getting older, I still have all my faculties, and I’m sure that after I’ve finally solved or stopped trying to solve Bessler’s wheel, I’ll take a more leisurely look at the sim software, and learn all about it.
I would understand if many people think I’m deluding myself because I believe I can still solve this puzzle and that’s fine, I have a number of tricks up my sleeve that I shall explain later, but for now I must press on and finish this wheel. I’m also still writing my book detailing all of the clues I have actually deciphered. I accept that there may be some scepticism about my interpretation, but my previous post about the pentagon hidden within the Apologia Poetica wheel certainly seems to have gained acceptance for the logical explanation even if not my interpretation of its meaning.
I like to busy and ever since I began writing my bio of Bessler I used to get up at 5 am to write for an hour or so before getting ready for work. Unfortunately that habit of waking at 5am has never left me, so I still wake at 5 every morning, and have done so ever since. Plenty of time for thinking!
JC
During the '80's and '90's I was heavily into the American equivalent of your Amstrad computer system which was our Commodore 64 computer and was also an avid video game player with the original and later versions of the Nintendo systems. They were all great ways to pass time and a lot of fun. At least with the Commodore 64 I was able to learn some actual programming and wrote many of them for it. It used a simplified form of Basic and allowed you to use a regular color tv as a monitor. To save your programs though you had to buy a separate disc drive which wasn't cheap. Most just used the Commodore 64 and the disc drive to play those first crude early video games which you could buy for about $10 apiece. Now the latest video games on CD can cost up to $100 depending on the system which can cost up to $500.
ReplyDeleteI took to simming fairly easily, but one needs a lot of practice making sims to really become good at it. It's not for everyone although it does deliver fast and generally reliable results. Once you start simming you quickly realize how faulty your mechanical sense can be. Everything I thought had to work was really unworkable. That's how I learned that when it comes to pm wheels, if it looks too good to be true it most likely will be!
jason
I did learn enough to decide to try my hand at simming, but first I want to finish this wheel. I also need to buy a new computer or possibly a laptop for simming. I did some tests to see if my pc wax up to it, but I think it’s too old and too slow. Actually although it’s slow I did not realise how long I’d had it, June 2006!
DeleteJC
June 2006! OMG! That should have been replaced long ago. It probably only has a ram of maybe 512 megabytes on it. Today's laptops can have rams up to 16 gigabytes! WM2D is bigger than 512 megabytes and you can run it on that dinosaur of yours, but it will probably run very slow especially if you make a sim of a wheel with many moving parts in it and want to run accurate sims of it. Time to upgrade to a new Windows 10 laptop.
DeleteI copied this off an old advert for my PC.
Delete“ Intel Pentium D820 Dual Core Processor 2.8GHz
Two processor cores work within the same processor to increase the performance of your PC. Dual core technology means that several demanding applications can be run at the same time allowing your computer to think as fast as you can multitask.
200GB Hard Disk
Superfast 7,200rpm, Serial ATA interface.
1024MB Memory
DDR2 SDRAM/533MHz. Both memory slots occupied.”
It seemed like a good idea at the time!
JC
To tell you the truth, your vintage PC doesn't sound that bad. It has a nice big hard drive and over a gigabyte of ram as well as dual core processing. I think you could use it for wm2d without too much of a problem. Just make sure that's the only program you're running at the time on it. You got a long, cold, dark winter ahead of you and plenty of time to practice with wm2d. I'd give it a try if I was you.
DeleteSay, whatever happened to that closet your wife decided it was time for you to replace? Was the job completed? Did all go well with it? We have to be careful never to complete any job too quickly because then our partners might get the idea that doing those boring and back breaking jobs is so easy that we can do even more of them and they'll then be right there with a nice long list of them for us to get started on!
I’ll give WM2D a go on the old PC, for now. I’m contemplating getting something with bit more muscle, but I’ll see how I get on with current one for.
DeleteI removed the old wardrobe, a massive job, and bought a smaller one which she is very happy with as it’s made so much more room. I know in the US bedrooms are bigger but here they are generally too small, but as there are just the two of us we can use the other three rooms for storage etc.
She has decided that my workshop corner of the garage is too untidy and scruffy so I’ve been giving it a make over with some paint and general tidy up! Now back to the wheel!
JC
@JC
DeleteYou better be careful she doesn't decide that it's time for you to permanently quit your Bessler pm wheel chasing hobby and start a new full time hobby more to her liking...home repair and renovation! The first sign of that could be her thinking that your workshop needs to be tidied up which could be another way of saying gotten rid of!
John you released information as promised. Now take your time, have fun with it, and let the clues drive the journey. For the rest of us, this is our hangout spot, so don't ruin it by quitting or solving the puzzle too early!
ReplyDeleteThank you, anon 16.09 !
DeleteJC
JC wrote: "I would understand if many people think I’m deluding myself because I believe I can still solve this puzzle and that’s fine, I have a number of tricks up my sleeve that I shall explain later..."
DeleteYou may "understand" it, but I don't think you like it. Everyone secretly hopes their ideas will be instantly accepted and approved of by others. If that does not happen we can feel isolated and rejected, especially if those doing the rejecting are our own families and friends who we expect the most support from.
Anyway we are all eagerly looking forward to seeing those "tricks" you have up your sleeve. Bessler's wheels may have been "simple", but they couldn't possibly have worked unless he put some trick into them that no one's yet suspected. Maybe you have it up your sleeve right now and still don't realize it? Let's all hope so.
For those that think a Pendulum is part of the solution, do some simple tests or Google the "large angle pendulum period equation" and put in some numbers to see how long it takes for a pendulum to swing from one side to the other. Now consider a wheel turning at 20rpm (120 degrees per second).
ReplyDeleteIn the time it takes for the pendulum to swing to one side, the wheel would have turned almost half way.
Also consider the fact that the pivot point of the pendulum is moving in a circular movement and that will interfere with the swing of the pendulum. Make some type of pendulum where you can hold the pivot point of the shaft, hold the weight level (say at 3pm position) and drop the weight. As the weight drops, move the pivot point around in a rapid circular motion and see what happens to the weight. It gets totally messed up and will never regain its height.
DeleteWell, this one goes to explain why gravity does not yeild energy...
ReplyDeletePART:1
Since gravity is unlimited, can we use it as an infinite energy source?
No, gravity can not be used as an infinite energy source. In fact, strictly speaking, gravity itself can not be used as an energy source at all. You are confusing forces with energy, which are very different things. Energy is a property of objects, such as balls, atoms, light beams, or batteries. In contrast, forces describe the interaction between objects. Forces are the way that energy is transferred from one object to another when they interact, but forces are not the energy itself. Gravity is a force, so it just provides one way for objects to exchange and transform energy to different states.
The kinetic energy that water gains when it falls (and can therefore be converted into electricity by a hydroelectric plant) comes ultimately from sunlight and not from gravity. As a force, no energy can be extracted from gravity itself.
If I lift a bowling ball to the top of a hill and let it go, the ball falls, speeds up, and seems to gain energy. Isn't this a case of gravity giving energy to the bowling ball? No. Again, gravity is just a force, so it just describes how objects interact. The energy that the ball displays as a falling motion came from my muscles when I hefted the bowling ball to the top of the hill, and not from gravity. Gravity just provides a way to temporarily store energy in an object. We call the energy that an object gains when you lift it against a force "potential energy". The energy comes from the lifting agent and not from the force. The force just provides a way to transfer energy from one object (my muscles) to another object (potential energy in the lifted ball). When I let go of the ball, gravity converts the potential energy of the ball to the kinetic energy (motional energy) of the ball. But the ball can never gain more kinetic energy than the total potential energy that I put into it by lifting it.
This concept is true of all forces, and not just gravity. Two magnets attract each other and fly together, speeding up and seeming to gain energy. You may think that the energy has come from the magnetic force. In truth, the energy comes from your hand pulling the two magnets apart against the magnetic force. The magnetic force just provides a way for potential energy to be stored in the magnet (by virtue of you pulling them apart, not just by virtue of them being magnets), and then converted from potential energy to kinetic energy. Any time you push an object to a new location against a force, you are giving it potential energy.
PART:2
ReplyDeleteIt is true that gravity is "unlimited" in the sense that it never turns off. Earth's gravity will never go away as long as it has mass. But since this is just a force and not an energy, the never-ending nature of gravity cannot be used to extract infinite energy, or any energy at all, for that matter. Think of gravity loosely like a rubber band. Stretch the rubber band and let go and it snaps back into place. You can therefore store potential energy in a rubber band by stretching it, and this potential energy becomes kinetic energy when you let go. But an unstretched rubber band just sitting there won't move at all, and can't create any energy. The energy you see in the rubber band snapping comes from you stretching it and not from the rubber band itself. Neglecting heat losses, the kinetic energy that comes out of the rubber band (how much it snaps) is exactly equal to the potential energy that you put into it using your muscles (how much you stretch it). Lifting an object against gravity is just like stretching the rubber band.
Confusing energy and forces leads to non-sensical ideas such as free energy (perpetual motion) machines. Such machines always fail precisely because forces are not energy, and you can't extract one single bit of energy from a force itself. For instance, a "free energy" machine could consist of a ball that rolls down a hill and hits a paddle, which turns a wheel. The problem with this machine is that the ball has to be returned to the top of the hill for the process to continue, and the amount of energy you have to put into your machine to put the ball back at the top of the hill equals the energy you get out of your machine from the spinning wheel. Actually, the amount of energy you get out of your machines is always less than the energy you put into it because some of the inputted energy is wasted to heat energy through friction. Free energy proponents devise ever cleverer ways to get the ball back to the top of the hill (or the magnets separated again, or the rubber band stretched again, etc.), hoping that just one more extra gear or wheel will somehow magically create energy out of nothing. But they can never get around the fact that forces are not energy and you can never get more energy out of a system than you put in.
What about hydroelectric plants that extract energy from the falling water in rivers? Don't they extract energy from gravity for free? No. The water in the river is no different from the ball that you have to haul up the hill. The water got its energy not from gravity but from some external agent that placed it high up in the mountains against gravity, so it could fall down the river bed. The external agent in this case is sunlight. Sunlight warms the ocean, causing the water to evaporate and float into the sky. The energy contained in the photons of sunlight is converted to the potential energy of the water molecules that are lifted high in the sky. These water molecules then rain down to the ground, form rivers, and flow back down to the ocean, converting their potential energy to kinetic energy, heat, and (in a hydroeletric plant) electricity. Ultimately, therefore, hydroelectric plants extract solar energy from water.
Thank you for that explanation Suresh, should I now give up and destroy my books and consign Bessler and his claims to the fraud section? No! No way! Your explanation is the standard official response which I’ve read too many times to count and it is absolutely right.....as far as it goes.
DeleteJC
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DeleteStephen, you wrote, “ John your last topic not this one of what you called a wheel lack the full description of the page it was on and the understanding of what was implied. Can you also answer the question who did Bessler get the design from?”
DeleteYou’ll have to explain a bit more, about the wheel, I don’t know what you want. And the answer to your question about who Bessler got the design from is obviously “himself”.
JC
SG... I agree with you... Over a period of time with gravity's help the dust and gas particles come together to ultimately become a star or galaxy...
DeleteBut who or what action displaced or scattered those particles in the first place?...
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DeleteSuresh just copied and pasted those two parts he posted above from a link to a website someone else gave here months ago. Maybe he doesn't mention that because he wants everyone to think they are his words and ideas? They are not. His posts were taken word for word from:
Deletehttps://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2014/01/08/since-gravity-is-unlimited-can-we-use-it-as-an-infinite-energy-source/
I do however agree that gravity was not the source of the energy Bessler's wheels put out. But gravity did supply the constant force on the weights in his wheels so they could then release energy. That energy, imo, could only have come from the weights themselves. Also we have to remember that one of Bessler's wheels could also have worked just fine if it was placed in a spinning centrifuge where there is no gravity. But, like Earth's gravity, the centrifuge does supply the centrifugal force which then allows the weights to release the energy inside of them. It might also be possible to get the energy out of the weights by using other kinds of forces like magnetic or from stretched springs.
Bessler Curious
How can I evaluate your exchange of views? I think you are right John because yours is there, but Suresh is partly right because his is also there. This reminds me of Bessler's conversation with Wagner.
DeleteIt's a good sign.
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DeleteBessler got the wheel secret from God through his dream...
ReplyDeleteJC sir... please don't dismiss this in a hurry... This matter needs a deeper look... As I always insist, things happen very fast inside... Initially, or gravity that enables the movement but it is a different story later... Things spin continuously in zero gravity conditions... How is this possible?...
ReplyDeleteWe need to consider inertia, cf, cp and angular momentum acting on the wheel...
I am not sure but maybe energy got is from a blend of all these forces...
A Weight has to be raised to some height to take advantage of gravity...
Well, what makes the weights in a BW to reach that reqd height?... And, till this is understood we really can't prove that gravity is the energy source in the case of BW....
So, a working model is the need of the hour...
And, why it has taken 300 plus years?...
Something really lifts the weights and can that something be the energy source?...
Gravity brings things down and does not lift them... Did Bessler find a way where he tricked gravity to lift through some cleverly designed mechanical way?...
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ReplyDeleteSG... I don't know beyond what I stated... Your English is very difficult to understand... I can't make out much out of it...
ReplyDeleteKen... My own language is easy to understand... They always carry three dots at the end of every sentence and wherever you don't notice three dots in between sentences it is a copy and paste job...
ReplyDeleteSG... How gravity functions itself is not clear to scientists still... And, in the meanwhile, how can we assume BW is powered by gravity... We also really don't know how BW works yet we claim that it is powered by gravity... I just don't understand the logic here...
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ReplyDeleteOkay! The race is on to see who the top "guru" on this blog will be. It will be determined by who can sound the most mysterious while telling us absolutely nothing of value as far as Bessler's wheels are concerned. Right now SG is in the lead with SK in second place and JC a distant third place. The smart bets are on SG to win! SK made the mistake of sounding too "scientific" in his recent "borrowed" comments. That was a mistake. Guru's don't believe in science unless they make it up. Will SK learn his lesson and start inventing his own science so he can catch up with SG? Many think he will because being in second place is not as nice as being in first place. But the competition will be rough because SK has gotten a lot of attention of late on this blog and SG has become envious and determined to steal it away from him. Stay tuned everyone as their race continues in the coming days!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThere is only room for one SUPREME Guru on this blog! Who has destiny chosen to be he? By the time this blog ends we shall all know!
Deletehttps://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10423681_343055095853995_245620532412235850_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=2&_nc_sid=6e5ad9&_nc_ohc=3t5lF5T4d8cAX_uUbo9&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=e5d9302995d8814d5f33b58cf8a69a49&oe=5FCBAC86
anon 13.20
DeleteThat dude look like he ate up too many blue berries.
Anon 14:08, that "dude" is "Shiva" who the Hindus consider one of their three main gods who are responsible for the creation, upkeep, and destruction of the world. The other two main gods are "Brahma" who is the creator of the universe and "Vishnu" who is the preserver of it. They are like the Hindu version of the Christian "Trinity" in a way.
DeleteShiva used to be considered both male and female, but now Hindus see him as neither male nor female. Shiva is the destroyer, but he's really considered to be destroying the impurities that hide in the human mind. If you call these impurities "sins", then Vishnu is sort of like the equivalent of the Christian Jesus. But unlike Jesus, Vishnu can sometimes show some bad behavior as well as good behavior depending on the situation.
Many believe that Shiva is a "Sayambhu" meaning one not born from a human woman and actually created himself. He always existed and always will just like Jesus and is considered the oldest god in Hinduism. He cannot die.
While on Earth Shiva had four wives who were Parvati, Uma, Durga & Kaali. Only Vishnu is considered more powerful than Shiva and can defeat him in a fight. Hindus however generally worship the god Brahma who they consider supreme and he is equivalent to the Christian God the Father and is formless. It was Brahman who created our universe.
Shiva is not blue because he ate too many blueberries. In Hinduism the color blue is a symbol of the infinite and immeasurable and human eyes will only see something immeasurable as having a blue color just like on a cloudless day the sky appears blue to the eye.
At the end of time the universe will be destroyed. But not to worry. After a long "Night of Brahma" during which Brahma takes a nap Brahma wakes up again and the universe is created again by Brahma and everything starts again. Sort of like one Big Bang after another forever.
If one studies the main religions he will notice that there are similarities between them that the average person is not aware of. Many believe that during his youth Jesus may have traveled with a caravan over to India and learned a lot there about Hinduism. Later during his ministry some of the theology he gave out had some Hinduism in it. Later, after Jesus' death and resurrection, Saint Thomas is believed to have traveled over to India hoping to meet Jesus again. There he learned some more about Hinduism and that was also used in the gospels that were written decades after Jesus ascended.
OMG! Anon 13:20, the more I look at that picture of Shiva, the more he reminds me of...Bessler! Is it possible that Bessler was the reincarnation of Shiva? If so, then Bessler / Shiva was given the secret of pm by God / Brahma to give to mankind. But, mankind was not spiritually pure enough to receive that knowledge so Bessler / Shiva destroyed the secret and then left the scene by jumping to his death off of that windmill in 1745. But Shiva cannot die and all that happened was that he left behind the mangled body of Bessler while the spirit of Shiva went back to be with Brahma until it is time for his next appearance on Earth.
DeleteKen... Tell me who is trying to throw more light on the mysterious internal mechanism...
ReplyDeleteIt must be obvious to all by now...
I am helpless most of the time because I can't really disclose everything directly or openly...
The secret design is very simple... It can be revealed even by a gesture in just one simple sentence...
Bessler faced such hardship yet he showered upon us with rich words which even today remains fully explored...
The design is really very artful and it's action is very grand to look at...
Update. It's official! Joe Biden is now elected to be the next US President! The state of Pennsylvania earlier today said they counted the last mail in vote and Biden won by enough of a lead to prevent a recount. They have officially certified the results. That state, Biden's home state btw, provided the final state electoral votes to boost Biden to 279 votes and past the minimum of 270 he needed to win. Trump lags behind with only 216 votes. Biden will be installed next January 20th after he takes the oath of office. Will Trump be there? I predict no.
ReplyDeleteDemocrats are rejoicing all over the US and a lot of Republican politicians that feared his tweets are breathing easier now. A large crowd has gathered outside of the White House and wants to shoot off fireworks tonight to celebrate the Biden victory. Trump who returned from golfing today is now hunkered down in the White House. He says he is not conceding, not going to call and congratulate Biden, and doesn't plan to leave the White House! He's angry, moody, and blaming his lawyers for not being able to get the courts to change various state rules on how votes are counted so he can win. He says that he, Trump, was really elected president if you subtract off all of the fraudulent votes that were mailed in even though there is zero proof of any of that. A few months ago he was ranting that Biden was the worse candidate in history and too old to be president. Well, "Sleepy Joe" just beat him in an election to become the oldest president in US history. Trump, like a real sore loser, refuses to call Biden to congratulate him and won't invite him to the White House which is a custom.
The prime minister of Sweden said that all of the European leaders are relieved now that Trump is on the way out. A few leaders like Israel's Nathanyahu and that prince of Saudi Arabia will miss Trump because of his anti-Iranian policies.
Biden isn't waiting for Trump to leave (or be evicted from) the White House though. Biden is now forming a 12 member team of experts to help finally put an end to COVID-19 in the US. Expect them to immediately tell everyone to start wearing their masks, social distancing, and avoiding big gathering. We've known this all since March and if Trump had been pushing it, he might have been the winner of the this election!
Trump is now kind of like Hitler in the bunker as the Soviet troops closed in on him in 1945 and wants to hang on to the last minute. The fear is that he might do some really damaging things to the US to get revenge for losing. It's very possible that the US Senate may send a bipartisan group down to the White House to tell Trump that he needs to RESIGN NOW before his term of office is over for "the good of the nation" and let VP Pence take over as a caretaker. That is a really embarrassing thing and what was done to Nixon.
Don't change the channel folks. This melodrama is about to get even more bizarre in the coming weeks!
Anonymous and PROUD of it!
I won't be shedding any tears over the departure of Trump from the White House. All he did during his term was encourage paranoia and bigotry in the American people with his crazy tweets and conspiracy theories.
DeleteThe only actual enacted legislation he signed was that big tax cut for his millionaire and billionaire friends. Other than that all he did was sign executive orders that don't need Congress to approve to be effective. Of them the only one I liked was the one to help veterans get prompt medical care at veterans hospitals instead of them having to wait months and with many dying while waiting.
Trump is an embarrassment to America on the world stage and most in the US were turned off by his antics. Everyone first thought that show of his was just to make him stand out from the others during the primary debates back in 2016, but it continued right on after he was elected and actually got worse. The idea of him in the White House for another four years was what really motivated about 75 million Americans, some of them long time Republicans, to make sure they sent in their mail in ballots or made it to the poles to finally get rid of him. He knew that would happen which is why he had his lawyers trying to stop those ballots from even being mailed out to registered voters for the last several months.
I think after three months of being gone from office he will just be like any other nutter out there spouting his conspiracy theories and few will even listen to him anymore. Imo, he never should have gotten involved in politics. He only won by very thin margins in several key states and his opponent, Hilary Clinton at the time, took her defeat with dignity. Now that Biden has beaten Trump by larger margins, all Trump can do is bitch and whine like a spoiled little brat about it and blame everyone else for his failure to be re-elected. The reality it was HIS erratic and nutty behavior that caused him to be defeated by Biden and nothing else.
Update. I just saw an interesting interview with Michael Cohen who was one of Trump's personal attorney's. He's the one who went to prison because he lied to Congress about having made a hush money payoff to a porn star that Trump had an affair with in order to protect Trump. Cohen was released early from prison because he had some sort of health problem.
DeleteAccording to Cohen, Trump could not tell the truth if his life depended on it! He says that once he's gone from the White House, he will still be tweeting away and trying to mess up Biden's presidency as much as he can. But Cohen does not think Trump will try to run for re-election again after Biden's first four year term is completed because once he leaves office and looses his "executive privilege" which protects him from being sued, he will be facing a mountain of civil and criminal litigation what will potentially bankrupt him and could put him into prison.
Cohen predicts that during the Christmas holiday Trump will go down to his golf course in Florida and won't be returning to the White House again. He will just sit out the remainder of his term down there and won't be attending Biden's inauguration.
Cohen says that Trump's ego won't let him ever concede the election or wish Biden well since he's 100% convinced that Biden couldn't win unless there had been massive fraud. Trump will keep right on trying to overturn the results of the election until he's tried everything possible. Those many lawsuits will start to be filed tomorrow, Monday, but without credible evidence, they will probably all be quickly thrown out. Of course, those who obey Trump's whims may even start to manufacturer "evidence" for him!
Cohen also said that most of those executive orders that Trump was signing were basically worthless and only photo op's he was putting on to try to look "Presidential". He said that anyone can sign a piece of paper, but that's not the same as also providing the policies to turn them into action. Apparently, Trump would sign them and somehow expect others to make them happen which they usually never did.
Cohen said it's amazing how about half of the people in the US actually believe in all of the nonsense coming out of Trump's mouth. I've had the same feeling for years now! There is an entire right wing conspiracy "industry" in the US that is buying up failing radio and tv stations and turning them into outlets for this nonsense and there are Americans that spend all day listening to them. There are areas where their "news" is all anybody talks about. They all portray the objective media as the enemy of the people and not to be trusted because all they produce is "fake news". It's real purpose they claim is to turn America into a godless socialist or communist state.
If you look back at the history of Germany during the 1930's you will see that this pattern is IDENTICAL to what the Nazis Party did to brainwash an entire nation, steal power, and then try to take over the world! It can't happen in the US? Not true! It was well on it's way to happening and, fortunately, this time a little more than half of the population who still hadn't been brainwashed by the right wing media managed to put a stop to it. But we must remain ever vigilant because there could be future Trump dictator types waiting in the wings to move in and give it a try again. Whenever times are difficult, these ego maniacs who are hungry for power will try to exploit them and the people desperate for financial help. We saw what happened to Germany during WWII as a result. Let's make sure it never happens to America!
I also just learned that both England's Boris Johnson and France's Emmanuel Marcron have called President Elect Biden and congratulated him on his victory. I think that Trump considers anyone who congratulates Biden as betraying Trump.
Anonymous and PROUD of it!
Yeah Trump is like a cancer on the republican party and I think most of them know it. He'll try to hang on as long as possible by filing frivilous no evidence lawsuits but they wont go anywhere. But maybe his enablers are hoping they will find some little irregularity so he can claim he's exposed partial evidence of a much bigger fraud which really only exists in his brain. That will allow him to leave the Whtie House and then spend the rest of his life telling his followers how he was cheated and he's really their legitimate president. Some of the nuttier ones may proclaim him their president for life and vow to follow his orders. My fear is that they might try some sort of violent coup to take over the federal government and install him as the US dictator. Thsi happens in little countries around the world from time to time.
DeleteI agree we should never think "it cant happen here". That mistake allows these crooks to quietly walk in and take over. Before the average citizen knows it they are controlling the press, the courts, and the politcial system. When Hitler's Nazis came to power in 1933 there were over a dozen political parties in their parliament. Five years later, there was only the Nazis party! Reporters in the media who were trying to expose what was happening kept mysteriously disappearing or committing suicide.
I'm watching to see how Trump tries to continue to control the republicans from the side lines so he can become the "king maker" in their party. Once that happens he will only allow republican politicians who are "Trump approved" to be elected. He's nutty enough to do something like that. If the republicans have any brains left they will put the brakes on it the first time he tries it.
AAPOI wrote at 23:54: "The fear is that he might do some really damaging things to the US to get revenge for losing."
DeleteToday Trump used a tweet to fire his Secretary of Defense who months ago didn't agree with him on something. He's starting to lash out with firings in an effort to get even with anyone he doesn't like in order to make himself feel powerful on his way out the door. My fear is that his new Secretary of Defense will be another one of his lackies who will help him launch a war somewhere so he can claim he's a "war time president" and can't leave office until its over! That could take YEARS more! He knows FDR was elected four times because of the Great Depression and WWII and he might think he should be able to do the same thing. A lot can happen between now and Jan 20th! He's also probably being urged by the Israelis and the Saudis to launch a war against Iran which is their major enemy in the region. If that happens we could have tens of thousands of more dead troops before it's over and trillions more added to the national debt. His need to feel powerful makes him very dangerous at this time, imo.
Any day now I expect the Trump controlled Supreme Court to decide that our original constitution is actually unconstitutional and needs to be abolished. In it's place they will substitute a new constitution that is completely written up by Trump.
DeleteIn that one he will be named as president for life and can only be succeeded by one of his relatives named Trump. His title will be changed from President Trump to Emperor Trump The Greatest. All elections will be done away with and he will decide who all of the politicians in power will be and can fire them at any time if they don't do what he wants them to do or fail to show him enough respect. He will have complete and permanent immunity from any sort of civil or criminal prosecutions and no one in the US named Trump will ever have to pay any taxes again. He's probably already working on this document. He will also have the other four loser presidents' heads blasted off of Mount Rushmore to make room only for his head.
Update. Trump's lawyers are filing one frivolous lawsuit after another to try to stop the vote counting in any state that hasn't finished its count yet and certified the result. The idea looks like he's trying to create as much confusion and chaos as possible so Biden's win will still remain in doubt. If that condition persists too long, it will force the matter into the US Congress's House of Representatives for resolution so it can all be done by January 20th of next year. If that is done, then according to the US Constitution each of the fifty states has one vote on who the next president will be. The simple majority decides it. Guess what? It turns out that there are a few more low population republican dominated "red" states than higher population democratic dominated "blue" ones. That means when the vote is taken, the small majority of "red" states will all elect Trump as the next president!
DeleteEveryone thinks Trump is just making all of the fuss he's making because he's having trouble adjusting to Biden's win. No! His real goal is to have another election in which he is guaranteed to win. In other words there is a "method in his madness". If he is successful, all hell is going to break loose and there will be calls to completely reform the US election system to make sure this craziness never happens again. That will probably result in one or more amendments being made to the US Constitution.
On the bright side a major drug manufacturer in the US just announced that it has found a vaccine against COVID-19 that it claims is 90% effective and which is now completing trials for safety. The bad news is that it won't be available to the average citizen until maybe the late spring of next year. By that time we'll have a few hundred thousand more dead from the virus. Even if it's available and people start to take it, the death rate will continue for many more months until the "herd immunity" effect begins to kick in. It sounds like most of next year will be really bad in the US even with a vaccine.
Anonymous and PROUD of it!
I don't think most realize how really ugly this situation could get. Trump is already replacing top Pentagon military people with cronies that will be loyal to him. I think he's planning to use them to deploy armed troops around the White House to prevent him from being evicted on January 20th as required by the US Constitution. Trump could actually be suffering from some sort of paranoid psychosis that's convinced him he actually won the election and that Biden is responsible for the fraud election that showed he won. Trump may think Biden is attempting some sort of socialist coup to take over the government and that only Trump, the actually elected president, and his supporters can stop him.
DeleteWe could see the spectacle of the White House turned into a fortress and actual street battles taking place around it as those military generals loyal to Trump try to defend against the attempts by the generals loyal to Biden to fight their way in and arrest Trump. Someone above mentioned how Trump reminded him of Hitler in his underground bunker in 1945. We may actually witness a repeat of that! Trump would hopefully just surrender, but being delusional he might decide to go out with a blaze of glory and even blow up the White House taking himself and all of his closest followers with it!
Meanwhile out in the surrounding streets, Trump's armed followers could also be shooting it out with the pro Biden troops. They might set half of Washington, DC on fire. The rest of the world will be shocked by the news they are seeing on their tv's every night. In the end Biden will become president, but the nightmare that may bee necessary to make that happen will result in many changes being made to how our elections take place and also in the US Constitution to make sure it can't happen again. I can see it now...the Anti-Trump Dictatorship Amendments!
All this chaos, due to one man's mental problems, would be added on top of our ongoing corona virus deaths, a stock market that will probably crash, and who knows what else taking place around the world because America lost is grip on things.
I'm VERY nervous about what will be happening in the next few months. We could be talking about it for decades to come just like they did with the US Civil War, WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, Vietnam, and the 2008 Housing Market crash. What happened on 9/11 could be considered minor to what's coming toward us now.
I think underestimating the damage that Trump is doing to the democratic process in the US and abroad is a big mistake. They made that same mistake with Hitler and the Nazis over in Germany in the 1920's. By continuing to insist that Biden is a fraudulently elected US President, Trump is actually telling tyrants all over the globe that it's "normal" to ignore the results of their own elections. That's going to help replace democracies with autocracies which is not what America is supposed to be promoting.
DeleteRight now the republican politicians Trump has control over in the US are still telling him what his ego wants to hear which is that of course he won the election and he will soon be able to prove it. If they don't do that they fear him denouncing them to his small base of fanatical supporters who think he's the greatest president ever and who they will follow without question with the result that those politicians might start losing their local elections. Many may be afraid that some of Trump's more mentally disturbed followers might try to assassinate them! I'm watching to see when these politicians are going to start waking up to how dangerous enabling him is, especially to their political party, and decide to start deserting the sinking Trump ship. As they do that expect a tweet storm from him daily to try to keep them under his control. I agree totally with anon 06:57 that this situation has the potential to become "really ugly" especially as we get closer to January 20th of next year.
STEPHEN GLORIOSO... you said "it's what's drawn on the other side that is important"...however I don't see anything drawn on the other side except text...the wheel is seen here https://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/id/PPN616533357?tify={%22pages%22:[102],%22view%22:%22info%22} and on the page preceding that one which is on the other side of the wheel is https://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/id/PPN616533357?tify={%22pages%22:[101],%22view%22:%22info%22}...I think you are mistaken...there are no other drawings in apologia poetica...sorry sir.
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ReplyDeleteBRILLIANT move by SG to push SK back into a more distant second place for the honor of being the TOP GURU on this blog by delivering one of his biggest loads of mystery clues to date which still tell us nothing about Bessler's wheels that can be used!
DeleteSK, don't you understand yet that SG is SERIOUS about being the top guru here? You have got to start being a LOT more mysterious than him with your own loads of pseudoreligious / pseudoscientific babble and the less sense they make the better. Forget about pasting in those science articles from other websites here. That won't make you the top guru here and will only push you farther away from that status.
Those looking for a guru to follow and praise here couldn't care less about science. Before you know it you could even wind up behind JC who is still in a distant third place here and not too happy about that. Don't let that happen to you and disappoint your many fans here. They are all hoping that you, their hero, will become the top guru here. Time for YOU to get FAR more serious about doing that SK!
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Deletemuch truth in this one!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sandraandwoo.com/comics/2019-11-19-1130-pseudoscience.png
So true! JC
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Delete"... I'd like to know where you found that comic strip..."
DeleteTry searching the "comic archive" at:
http://www.sandraandwoo.com
We don't yet fully know what exactly is or causes Gravity and the same goes for Inertia... Under these circumstances it would be extremely difficult, premature and also unwise to decide that it is Gravity alone that powers BW...
ReplyDeleteAn ideal situation to solve this question would be to first successfully construct a BW and study the movement of weights inside and until then it is job undone...
Or is it a case where gravity is used to bring the weights down and some other phenomena used for the lifting?... We reallycan't rule this out either...
My opinion is that it is a combination of the above...
It wasn't that easy for Bessler to work out the wheel secret and the same goes to us as well... We haven't succeeded yet despite the passing of 300 years... What could all this mean?... I think the involvement of several principles is making things difficult for us... Maybe, if we consider this multi principles involvement idea the matter would become easy... We are used to only way of thinking that it is gravity alone that causes Bessler wheel to rotate... And maybe, that is why we are not at all progressing... Can we call this as the out of box thinking?...
Well, every morning I wake up or get out of the bed such thoughts keep occurring... And I just thought I should share them with all of you...
Good day...
"It wasn't that easy for Bessler to work out the wheel secret and the same goes to us as well... We haven't succeeded yet despite the passing of 300 years..."
DeleteYou've made a BIG mistake with this admission of ignorance, SK! Guru's NEVER admit any ignorance because it's bad for business. Their followers need to believe that they have infallible and supreme knowledge and are not just as confused as their followers are. You will have to work VERY hard to undo this damage if you ever hope to become the TOP GURU on this blog. Meanwhile SG will be blissfully happy to know that you've now shrunk to a mere speck in his rear view mirror. That takes the pressure off of him for a while as he slowly gets closer to winning the race to become TOP GURU here!
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DeleteSK...see how SG has no doubts about how Bessler's wheels worked? He, unlike you in your comment above, is acting like a true guru. You need to follow his example carefully if you are to ever become TOP GURU on this blog. You must keep saying that Bessler's wheel is "very simple". Then give some vague hints about how it works that preferably should make no sense. The hints must also not be specific enough for anyone to use them to actually try to build anything. Finally express surprise that only you have found the secret of Bessler's wheels and throw in some hints that the secret is contained in ancient texts or drawings that you found and studied. That increases the mystery of the source of your superior knowledge and followers of gurus love that sort of stuff. Perfect guru behavior! If you can't do that then just say that God or Brahma gave you the secret in a dream. The babblings of Guru's in contact with gods always get more attention. SG has truly mastered the art of being a guru while you SK are still an amateur, imo. You need to more closely study his posts here.
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ReplyDeleteUnless your "knowledge" leads to a working wheel, no one will really give a damn about it. Even if you get a working wheel out of it and show photos or videos of it on the internet actually running, most will just say you're mistaken or lying about it with 99% thinking you're lying and probably trying to use it to scam people out of money.
DeleteIf you submit your working model to some high powered university to test and verify that it's genuine, a Randy type debunker will inevitably pop up and just say that all of the professors there were only fooled by your fake wheel and he will then make his own version of it that works just like yours does.
Your only real hope of ever being believed is if your design actually leads to something that can be sold and starts to show up in people's homes either as a working toy with no hidden batteries in it or as a serious source of electrical power. Unless that happens you are just deceiving yourself if you think your "knowledge" will ever be considered real by anybody.
Hello John, Please explain these translation differences for M.T. 25 : Your book ends with "Mark my words" but orffyre.com (Bill's site ) ends with "the diagram must be studied extensively".Why this difference and who changed it and why? Thanks!
ReplyDeleteSorry Richard, I can’t remember but it looks to me as though they mean the same thing. I used a translation done many years ago and Bessler’s writing is so bad I can only show what I was given. There have been others who are tried to read the handwriting but if you look at my version of MT you can see the writing there, it’s illegible.
DeleteJC
Andrew Witter (aka Ted of Chicago) did the original MT's translation IINM. Passed to JC from Glenn Rouse along with some other translated Bessler documents. JC made alterations and corrections to these translations, where he "felt they were due" - recorded in MT's "acknowledgements" section.
ReplyDeleteJohn - who translated the MT comments a second time, that are the more recent found in BW.com wiki page ?
RAFORD .. MT25 ends with 'NB' translated as "mark my words" in the Andrew Witter/JC account IINM.
Early MT Hard Copy : There is more to this than one might think. Mark my words.
There is more to this than one might think. NB.
Later Wiki : There is more to it than one supposes; one must study the diagram extensively.
-f
Thanks fletch. I couldn’t remember Andrew Witter’s name! Another senior moment I guess.
DeleteJC
"JC made alterations and corrections to these translations, where he "felt they were due" - recorded in MT's "acknowledgements" section."
DeleteLOL! So much for the accuracy of the "translations" in MT!
@anon00:27
DeleteMakes me wonder how many other "alterations and corrections" JC made to the translations he got for GB, AP, and DT because he "felt they were due"! This is why I don't get too excited over "translations". Have ten different people translate a foreign language sentence that's centuries old and you'll get ten different versions each with it's own subtle meaning. Then have ten different people read ONE of those sentences and they'll have ten different interpretations of it and get into an argument over which one is right.
Well anon, I made two alterations to the text of MT. The first one was to correct a translation using the word black soot from fire for printing which I knew was known as lamp black. The second was corrected by Stewart who was able to read Bessler’s handwriting in this particular incident more accurately than I. It concerned the so-called connectedness principle, which I translated as principle of motion.
DeleteAs for any of the other books I reproduced their translations as they were given to me.
I’d appreciate if you didn’t try to cast a slur on my name for no good reason, anon 00.27 and anon 09.33.
JC
@JC. The changes you made seem perfectly justifiable to me. No translations will ever be perfect though and we all need to keep that in mind when we read them.
Delete👍
DeleteCan you remember who did the second more recent translation of MT comments in the WIKI?
ReplyDelete-f
Possibly Stewart? I can’t think of anyone else who might be capable.
DeleteJC
STEPHEN GLORIOSO... sorry for the delay in my reply... I saw your post a while back on the blog about tab 8 figure 16 in Leopold's Theatrum Machinarium General... ever since then I have tried my hardest to make something out of it, but to no avail...it seems to me nothing of an advantage over a regular lever...the force on it is the same...i thought maybe perhaps the weight would be displaced so that one side would be heavier but no matter what trick I employ it doesn't work...then im thinking im missing it about one pound lifting four pound over same height...i also saw the bell picture and see a rope attached to a lever that swings up a weight in the middle...im thinking this applies like calloway's wheel where the heavy pendulum pushes a lighter weight to overbalance but with all my experiments with that design nothing works...also all my sims showed it wouldn't work mathematically speaking anyway...i am confused as to what principle is conveyed here...i must be missing something...sorry sir
ReplyDeleteLinks please !
ReplyDeleteSG seems to think this drawing at the bottom right corner of the page (Tab: VIII, Fig: XVI) from one of the many illustration pages at the back of Leupold's "Theatrum Machinarum" has something to do with the mechanisms inside of Bessler's wheels. He's the only one that thinks that though. Everyone else just thinks it shows how compound lever systems can balance each other. They work exactly like any simple lever and the change in GPE of the weights as one rises while the other falls always equals zero. No excess energy comes out of them.
Deletehttps://www.e-rara.ch/zut/content/zoom/3583257
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DeleteTHAT DOES IT FOR ME! I now vote that SG be officially proclaimed as the TOP GURU on this blog! Does anybody else want to second that nomination?! Yes? Yes!! Now for the vote. Who agrees that SG deserves to be proclaimed TOP GURU here? I can see you all now raising your hands in total agreement. It looks like the vote is unanimous!
DeleteCongratulations, SG, you are now officially this blog's TOP GURU!
His 06:29 post where he says he sees a "smiling ghost" in Leupold's book drawing and that Bessler then used that same symbol in his own illustrations to let everyone know he actually got the idea for his wheel from Leupold is a brilliant flash of true maximum guru insight! I've always suspected that Bessler stole his working pm principle from someone else. After all he was just a poverty case from a lower class family of laborer types. If Bessler could not find a working pm machine after one hundred tries, he certainly could not have eventually found it unless he had help from someone much smarter than him like Leupold who actually knew how pm wheels work.
Leupold must have been trying to disguise that secret principle that is shown in Tab 8, Fig 16 by proving in other parts of Theatrum Machinarium General that a pm wheel CANNOT work in order to mislead everyone. Clever ruse, but not clever enough to fool Bessler or SG. Totally amazing discovery, SG! You should be justly proud of your amazing guru abilities.
ALL HAIL this blog's new TOP GURU...SG! Hail to SG! Hail to SG! Hail to SG!
Too bad for poor distant second place loser SK. He grossly underestimated SG's abilities as a guru and now must live in his shadow for a long time. Well, maybe with a few more years of study and practice, SK will finally be able to crawl up the lofty heights that SG has achieved and steal that mighty status of TOP GURU from him. I'm sure SK's many fans will rejoice IF that ever happens. But I wouldn't bet on it!
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DeleteStephen wrote at 07:20 "If I give you a fish you could eat for a day"
DeleteCould you make it pizza instead? I'll believe anything you say if you make it pizza!
SG wrote: "Johann Bessler give credit to Jacob Leupold in his writings."
DeleteIn MT Bessler wrote for MT 9: "In all places where I have found weight-figures, these weights are seen to be simple and nothing is attached to the belts or chains. Such is the case with Leupold, but nothing is to be accomplished with his thing unless one acts out of my connectedness principle..."
Bessler certainly doesn't sound like he's "giving credit" to Leupold for anything. He's basically saying that Leupold is just another failed pm wheel chaser because his wheel (it's the one in Theatrum Machinarium General with 12 weighted levers) isn't using Bessler's "connectedness principle".
Bessler Curious
The page in 1724's "Theatrum Machinarum Generale" where Jacob Leupold (1624 to 1727) illustrates several pm wheel designs is here:
Deletehttps://www.e-rara.ch/zut/content/zoom/3583255
The failed pm wheel of Leupold's that Bessler refers to in the note to MT 9 is the one shown in the lower right hand side of the page labeled Fig. XI. It's supposed to turn CCW but doesn't because it can't keep the COG of its 12 weighted levers on the left side of the axle. BUT, Bessler hints in the notes to MT 9 that it could do so if it used Bessler's "connectedness principle". So, if you want to make a working pm wheel just make Leupold's wheel and then figure out how to connect its levers together in the right way.
It's amazing how similar Leupold's failed pm wheel is to Bessler's MT 13 nonrunner. I think that Bessler just took Leupold's wheel and then decided to turn it into a runner. First he tried that big half moon bob weight pendulum riding on the axle shown in MT and when that did not work he moved on to cords and maybe springs. If so, then he did use Leupold's wheel, but had to improve upon it to make it work. But, that's how technical progress is made with inventions most of which are just patentable improvements on past inventions.
jason
Jason wrote "So, if you want to make a working pm wheel just make Leupold's wheel and then figure out how to connect its levers together in the right way."
DeleteNo need to bother because Ken B's already done it for everyone with his wheel. He also reduced the number of levers down to eight from twelve which makes his version one third easier to build.
Hold your horses. I'm not too happy with proclaiming SG to be the winner. Everybody knows that it is SK, so there is obviously some kind of fraud going on. If you had only counted the votes for SK, he would have won by a landslide. i bet you were counting both raised hands of everyone voting for SG and you were seeing double, because of all that celebratory alcohol you've been drinking. A little bird told me that you had tied all the SK voters arms behind their backs too, and i have a post it as proof. Anyhow, it doesn't matter who won the vote because we know it is SK the winner.
ReplyDeleteHmmm...maybe all of those that thought SK should have been elected TOP GURU here instead of SG were doing something else with their hands at the time?
DeleteThanks John and also thanks fletch for the history behind the translations!Bessler clearly shines a green light on M.T.25 as deserving careful investigation (together with M.T. 138-141 and M.T.18).
ReplyDeleteHi R .. FWIW I think it worth considering that MT's 25 and 24 are functionally identical ! One has 4 sectors, the other 8. Other than that they are the exact same 'drop and pull' principle. To reinforce (their importance) further B. says very 'first' sentence in MT24 "This invention should not be scorned". In MT25 he adds a 'last' sentence abbreviated to just "NB".
ReplyDeleteSometimes we write NB or n.b. (Latin Nota Bene = Note Well).
You will have noted that no other B. written comments accompanying the first 54 MT's have an NB.
4 or 5 later pics have a NB in the picture somewhere but relate to other matters IMO.
If they should not be scorned and noted well then there is something important happening in them, most probably a functional similarity they both share.
-f
MT 24 and 25 may have been "functionally identical" but that doesn't mean they functioned as pm wheels. There have IIRC been sims made of both of them that show neither works.
DeleteAnon 21:14 : No, they don't function as PM wheels, without a doubt. We don't even have to build them or sim them to see that. They have H4W problems like ALL other OB designs and concepts. So there must be something else in the arrangement that is note worthy and ought not to be scorned. Perhaps showing a mechanical action or choice of method (a step towards) of force transference for the correct PM Principle IINM. Each has to analyze it for themselves and distill it down to basics that might show potential IINM.
Delete-f
"They have H4W problems like ALL other OB designs and concepts."
DeleteI have yet to read a clear explanation of this "H4W problem". Anyone actually understand it and can explain it or can provide some links to a clear explanation? Thanks.
https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=134375#134375
Delete"The Importance of Raising Weights"
I'll have to do this without the aid of diagrams. So I will paint a thought experiment and picture for you to follow. I'll use a simple example that demonstrates the H4W or W4H problem. Little math involved. It applies to ALL complex examples as well.
Take a background circle with an axle at the center position (zero radius). Place 2 equal weights on it, diametrically opposite at the same radius. Say one on the 12 o'cl radial and the other on the 6 o'cl radial. The system is torque balanced with no tendency to rotate in any direction (the CoM/CoG is at the axle). Now move the top weight vertically upwards some distance to a greater radius. The CoM/CoG is now above the axle vertically. Move the wheel to the right a smidgeon. The system is now unbalanced and will rotate to the right, down to bdc and then swing upwards beyond. At bdc the CoM/CoG is at its lowest physical position and position of least potential energy (GPE). We can calculate the amount of KE the system has passing thru bdc by mgh (GPE lost) since GPE lost = KE gained. The system can swing on by bdc and the CoM rise, but no higher than it started at. NB1 this is just a pendulum analogy. NB2 the KE gained by the CoM at bdc is NEVER greater than the CoM GPE lost !
If we wanted to we could calculate the torque at any position using the physics formulas and trig and calculus for ANY position on the downward swing phase. Adding up the slices we find that KE = GPE lost (mgh).
OK .. now we take the same original system and rotate it to the 9 and 3 o'cl radials. We move the 3 o'cl weight out to a greater radius and the system CoM is to the right of axle. The system has torque imbalance. We let it swing downwards CW and measure the velocity of the COM at bdc. We convert that to KE. If we let it swing on by again once again it will not raise the system GPE above its starting Potential ! The pendulum example again !
So we decide to stop it at bdc (position of least GPE) and use that KE (capacity to do Work) as Impact energy to move something else etc etc. But that means to reinstate the system (restore original potentials) we have to raise the bdc weight vertically from the greater radius (which gave it torque imbalance) to the closer radius (torque balance conditions). This is a straight vertical lift required and the energy can be calculated using mgh. This mgh = KE we had at bdc when we stopped the system. Zero Sum Game ! We could also do the calculus and slice and dice the fall profile and add them all up. We'd get the same mgh sum required for the restoration lift !
NB this is why physics says that gravity force is an acceleration and a conservative force. And why the path taken for a weight (CoM/CoG) falling or rising is inconsequential. Only the VERTICAL distance is relevant. Because mgh = KE. n.b. you can calculate the velocity at ANY VERTICAL height by rearranging the formulas mgh = 1/2mv^2 so that v = sqrt(2gh). Another proof.
No exceptions have ever been observed. Torque symmetry.
n.b. these thought experiments assume no losses to frictions such as heat, sound, deformation, or windage, which would make it a less than Zero Sum Game i.e. mgh > KE.
That is H4W in a nut shell. And probably the best I can do without diagrams. Read the thread above for a fuller discussion by ME, with pictures.
-f
Thanks fletch, for clarifying a problem which had become a bit of a foggy picture in my mind, and still something to be overcome or circumvented.
DeleteJC
BTW, if you ever want to include a picture just let me know and I’ll add it to the end of the blog.
DeleteJC
@fletcher.
DeleteThanks for taking the time and making the effort for your explanation of the "H4W problem". I agree with everything you clearly said, but I think calling it "H4W" is not really the best way to describe it and is a bit confusing. But, I can't think of a better term to use so I'll start using it too. It just basically means that the more imbalanced a wheel's CoG is by being farther from the wheel's center on its descending side, which increases torque, the more the weights at 6:00 or bdc have to be raised up which always uses up 100% any extra kinetic energy released because the CoG was farther horizontally from the wheel's center. It's a hopeless no win situation. Practically all of the pm machines in MT have this problem and can never work.
Although I get the impression that it's no longer acceptable to even mention his name on this blog anymore, I have to risk doing it because I think it could be important. Ken B claims that there is only one way around this problem and that is the one Bessler used. In his wheels, Ken B agrees that the weights on both sides of the axle rose and fell through the exact same vertical distance which we would normally think could not add any kinetic energy to a wheel. But, according to him, at any instant the average vertical falling speed of the descending side weights was always just a little bit greater than the average vertical rising speed of the ascending side weights. This difference in vertical speeds was only possible because as the levers rose on the ascending side and left 6:00 to travel up to 9:00 their attached weights were swinging downward at the time so that their vertical rise speed was decreased compared to what they would have been if their levers were not swinging because they were fixed to the wheel. Then as the levers approached 9:00 they would momentarily stop swinging and, as they passed 9:00 on their way to 12:00, they would suddenly start swinging upward which made the vertical rise speed of their weights increased compared to what they would be if they were fixed to the wheel. He's basically saying there was a sudden change in the vertical rise speeds of the ascending side weights that was not happening to the vertical drop speeds of descending side weights on the opposite side of the axle.
One might think the two different swinging directions of the ascending side levers would cause the different vertical rise speeds it caused in their attached weights to average out and then just exactly equal the average vertical drop speed of the descending side weights. But, Ken B says no that is not the case. In his approach the average vertical drop speed of the descending side weights is always a little more than the average vertical rise speed of the ascending side weights. That results in the descending side weights constantly losing a little more GPE than the ascending side weights are gaining from second to second even though the weights on both sides of the wheel travel through the same vertical distance! He claims that he has verified that this is actually happening and it is exactly how Bessler made his working pm wheels. IF he's right then this is a major breakthrough when it comes to understanding how Bessler's wheels worked.
I'm not into simming but I think maybe those who are should check it out and see exactly what does happen to the vertical speeds of weights on opposite sides of a turning wheel as the weights move farther from the center on the descending side and then move in closer to the center on the ascending side. This effect is either real or it isn't real and Ken B is imagining it. If the effect is real then it's something that serious pm seekers need to look into.
It might prove to be that extra something everyone has been looking for to turn their nonrunners into runners for centuries now. Maybe it is even that "prime mover" that everyone talks about only it is not a mechanism but rather a principle?
STEPHEN GLORIOSO sir... you said I'm close so that's good news but I feel like I've reached a dead end...i now understand the big weight to be 16 pounds versus the smaller weight at two pounds...this means that as two pounds fall, 16 pounds rise...however it does not seem to be over equal heights...so my other idea is that the big ball is the bell which moves four levers which shifts the two pound ball to overbalance...are any of these ideas right or am i wrong?...i am not very imaginative...all i know is that without overunity it won't work obviously
ReplyDeleteSTEPHEN GLORIOSO...yes i see four levers...does that mean it takes four levers to do this...it seems to me that the current application of the four mid-split levers function the same as a lever with a fulcrum nearer one side...i don't see the advantage so i must be missing something...is this a shifter-primary where a weight falls and raises another or is this where weight is unevenly dispersed...i dont see a smiley face sorry
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Delete@22:47/23:06. You are 100% correct that those interconnected levers don't do anything to make overunity. Notice that when you ask SG to explain that detail, he quickly tells you that only part of the solution is there! Perfect guru "answer" and why he's now officially the TOP GURU here. Next he starts to question YOUR motivation for wanting knowledge of Bessler's wheels. That's so he can decide if you are spiritually ready to receive that higher knowledge. More perfect guru behavior. Like all true gurus he needs to have devoted followers and he's trying to determine if you will make a good one. If at any point you stop playing the game, he will decide you are unworthy and write you off as a potential follower. If you do keep playing though then eventually he will tell you that the ultimate secret can't be revealed online. He'll try to get you to engage in offline communication with him by telephone most likely to finally receive that ultimate secret which only he and his most devoted followers know (if he actually has any now which he probably doesn't but is eager to accumulate). If you make the mistake of doing that all it will result in is you finally realizing how delusional he is and how much time you wasted with him. He tried this little guru game with JC last year IIRC but JC was smart enough not to take the bait.
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DeleteBonjour,
ReplyDeleteJe peux vous transmettre une image de la position des poids suivant ma conception " page MT Jouets" elle vous donnera une idée du couple disponible, sachant que chaque poids est de 0,5kg. cette position a été vérifié avec le module d'essai que j'ai construit.
Cordialement,
Joel Boniface
Translated to English:
Delete"Hello,
I can send you an image of the position of the weights according to my design "MT Toys page" it will give you an idea of the available torque, knowing that each weight is 0.5kg. this position has been verified with the test module I built.
Regards,
Joel Boniface"
Sounds interesting, Joel. Send it to John and maybe he can post it so we can all see what you've discovered and make comments on it.
@ to fletch and Anon. 11Nov.11:31: I cannot use math but must fly by intuition. It is a mistake to judge M.T. 25 via Static principles; only dynamics can help reach Bessler's principle. In my simplified rendition of M.T. 25,using only 2 sectors,the shifter weight(23 grams) does swing down at a constant speed whereas the primary weight(92 grams) SUDDENLY flies up at the 6 O'clock position as mentioned by Anon(11:31) This sudden CHANGE in the rate of acceleration cannot be described by Newton's 2nd law, which confines itself to a constant rate of acceleration.( See Intractance then see paper " Some aspects of certain transient mechanical systems" by Dr.William O. Davis, April.1962) This asymmetry in the rate of acceleration between the shifter weight and its paired primary may be crucial.
ReplyDelete@RAFORD
DeleteI found this sim on youtube done for MT 25. It's very short at only 4 seconds so better to loop it to study it. It shows that the design only keels and is not self-starting. That's enough for me to write it off and keep looking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xf4LK-D4l0
Wubbly did a nice sim of MT25 @ BW.com. Search MT25 w/ Wubbly. You can turn the motor on or off and adjust the length of the connector ropes etc while the sim runs.
DeleteBecause it can easily be seen to not be a runner, and keels like ALL classical OB designs, then something else is worthy of note. Since the opposite ascending levers also always fall back down and push its connecting pole/hinge and rope upwards towards the axle early in the piece then the descending side "fall and pull" does nothing to assist this process and is a redundant action. So MT25 must be suggestive of something else worthy of more thought.
-f
JB tells us the poles should not project so far out!
DeleteThe thru ropes coordinate and frame the movement of the poles and hinges/pivots so that the pairs move at the same time, if the ascending side should lag. The descending side pivots move to a greater radius whilst the ascending side partner moves to a closer radius, just like a classic OB wheel design. There are 2 possibilities imo for what is important in this mechanical arrangement, which is not much different from 26 and 27. 26 says one side is heavier and there is a bigger problem behind the problem you see.
DeleteA.. the hinges can also be construed as pivots (both with mass !) and move to a greater radius which could be torque related (ordinary assumption), or, for another purpose entirely (not an ordinary presumption) such as purely positional placement ?
B.. the thru axle rope connection perhaps is suggestive of reducing the adverse effects of Cf's because the ascending side hinge/pivot is forced/pulled inwards towards the axle, conceivably reducing its Cf 'counter-fight' with its descending side pair, so that the Cf influence at higher rpms is not a 'Show Stopper' and is manageable ?
Other than that the device is standard classic non-runner OB mechanics of H4W.
-f
Yes John, a mechanical "workaround" is obviously required to have a runner. A logical solution exists to be found.
ReplyDeleteWhen you truly understand the H4W “PROBLEM” and “TRAP” that “classical” OB designs present, then alternative mechanical formats may have the sunlight to grow. IMO.
-f
John, Can you show the Wubbly sim of MT25 mentioned by fletch on your blog? I am not able to see it on BW.com.forum Thanks!
ReplyDeleteHere's another sim that seems to show that MT 25 is just another nonrunner. It lacks the ropes through the axle, but they probably aren't needed:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6N2XG0ZSuA
I tried to add both links to the bottom of my blog but they didn’t take. I think google has done a so-called upgrade to blogger, and now I can’t do several things I used to be able to do. I’ll try again tomorrow.
DeleteJC
Thanks John for your efforts on this. The so- called "upgrades" are regressive instead.
ReplyDelete