It’s a curious situation we find ourselves in, we who believe that Johann Bessler did actually build a machine which ran continuously with no input of energy from the traditional sources. It sometimes feels as if we are promoting some kind of New Age religion; we are it’s disciples and the rest of the world are non-believers! It isn’t the same though because religion relies on faith without evidence, without reason or intellect. We, however, have evidence which we accept despite the mountain of scepticism we have to defend against. We seek to prove our evidence is legitimate, and so dispel the accusations of blind faith. Religion can never prove it’s legitimacy until we’ve passed on from this life, but I hope that one of us will provide the unassailable evidence that Bessler’s claims were genuine, preferably sooner rather than later.
We are facing what could be regarded as a perfect storm, to use a popular expression, on the contrary, this is probably the best possible time in history for Johann Bessler’s perpetual motion machine to make it’s second and final appearance.
It began with the concerns that the earth was running out of accessible crude oil and that we were burning it at an unsustainable rate. Then the climatologist jumped onto the bandwagon, declaiming the greenhouse effect, global warming and pollution. Then we had the plague, or covid. It’s beginning to sound a bit like the ten plagues of Egypt, caused by Pharaoh’s refusal to let the Israelites go free. This plague caused a global recession, and then when we had just about had enough, Vladimir Putin, decided to make war on his neighbour, which rapidly involved the rest of the world, leading to more deaths, more mass-migration and more starvation…….and the price of gas has rocketed upwards, perhaps we need an alternative?
This might seem as if that mysterious ‘guiding hand’ I once mentioned here a while ago, is at work. But is it overpopulation or pollution or some other endgame which we are being steered towards? When I was about 26 years of age, I had a serious car accident which could have killed me or maimed me, but from which I walked away with nothing but a brief period of unconsciousness. Upon my return to normal life, I experienced a feeling of intense exultation, optimism and the absolute certainty that I was destined to do something of great importance. I have tried to rationalise this feeling, putting it down to my amazement at having survived without serious injury, let alone death. It was this event that got me researching the life of Bessler some ten years after my first encounter with him. This revelation has stayed with me throughout all my years; true, it hasn’t morphed into anything of substantial value yet, although I’m always hopeful that Bessler’s wheel will indeed make its triumphant appearance one of these days.
It would seem as though Bessler’s invention came more than 300 years to soon. We had to go through the steam age, then the crude oil age, the nuclear age, the solar/wind ages before the time was ripe for Bessler’s wheel - that guiding hand again?
I don’t actually believe in a guiding hand, it’s just the way things happen, the easy route is usually the one that wins. We humans have an inherent ability to see patterns where none exist, draw conclusions on them, but mostly they are coincidences. Is Bessler’s machine the easiest route available to solve so many problems now? I reckon so.
I’m adding a link to a very important video which was sent in a comment below by Yuri. Please take a look.
JC
"...religion relies on faith without evidence, without reason or intellect. We, however, have evidence which we accept despite the mountain of scepticism we have to defend against."
ReplyDeleteThe faith of religions is based on evidence, but that "evidence" is usually just stories of who did what of a miraculous nature and where and when it was done that are repeated by word of mouth from one generation to the next until some unknown authors collect them into a "holy book". A self-appointed and self-annointed priesthood eventually arises that uses it to promote their belief in its stories as being genuine. Religions are really all just businesses that pull in hefty bucks every year selling people the assurance their sins are real and must be "cleansed" from them, but death is not real and that, if they get cleansed of their sins and practice that particular religion (which involves making regular financial contributions to it), they will be "blessed" or have good luck and finally achieve blissful immortality. Not in their current slowly dying bodies, however, but someday in the "great beyond"...
Not much is different with the Bessler story. You and others are just the latest to show up to promote it and make a buck off of that promotion. We have to take it on faith that Bessler (who just coincidentally happened to be a skilled clockmaker and craftsman) was not hoaxing, that Karl was not deceived when he found out how "simple" Bessler's wheels really were, that the Wiessenstein Castle test was not hoaxed, etc. Without an actual working wheel made by Bessler to examine, there is no absolute proof that his wheels were not hoaxed.
In the first century Jesus walked the Earth predicting that his contemporaries following him would either still be alive or would rise from the dead when he made his triumphant Second Coming which was soon to happen back then. It's now two thousands year later and...NOTHING! No Second Coming. No Jesus. No heavenly kingdom on Earth. People are still just being born, growing up, chasing after money, making babies, and then aging, sickening, and finally dropping dead...it's all just business as usual. But, his religion continues to be promoted and monetized from one generation to the next. For all we know, two thousand years from now someone will be selling books and making videos about Bessler and his wheels and making a buck off of them then and his wheels will also still not have been reproduced by then either! it will just be business as usual...
I wonder what percentage of pm wheel chasers are atheists? Probably most of us otherwise we would be in our local churches praying for salvation instead of in our workshops praying to find the secret of pm.
DeleteBessler could do both. He was religious and obsessed with pm which is why when he found the secret, he gave all of the credit for that miracle to God. If I find the secret, however, I will take all of the credit for it because of the years of banging my head against a brick wall I had to do to find it. The ego trip of that will help to pay me back for that headache the search gave me!
Anon 19:28, I agree with much of what you write although obviously I don’t agree that Bessler’s wheel needs us to take it on faith that it was real. The reason I became convinced in the first place was due to the fact that Bessler’s accuser had a history of deceit, and her explanation of how he faked it was just too ridiculous to accept. From there it led to a study of the documents of the time and the various witness statements which all added to the evidence that it was genuine.
DeleteJC
Anon 4:41, I also agree with your comments. I think more of us are atheists than we care to admit, it’s not something I’ve ever been concerned about admitting but I can understand why others say nothing or claim their faith.
DeleteJC
@John Collins,
DeleteJust because the maid was lying about one way of Bessler hoaxing his wheels does not necessarily mean that they were genuine. Maybe he was just hoaxing them using some other method? But, if he was, I can't think how it was done.
IIRC, Leibniz suggested it could be done with compressed air. The weights in Bessler's wheels could have been heavy well lubed metal pistons fitted precisely into metal cylinders and he had a tank of compressed air inside of the drum that would make the pistons slide around inside of their cylinders so as to always keep the pistons on a wheel's descending side just a little farther from the center of the axle than the pistons on a wheel's ascending side. Maybe he even figured out a way to use the daily changes in air pressure and temperature to keep the tank filled with air and compressed? IIRC there was another inventor who came up with a spring powered clock that was wound up by daily changes in air pressure and it ran perpetually or until one of its parts failed.
But if that was how he faked his wheels, then one would think that Count Karl should have realized it when Bessler revealed the secret to the count. Maybe not, however. Karl may not have been familiar with such pneumatic devices and accepted some fake explanation Bessler gave him instead. Agreeing not to discuss Bessler's invention with anyone else later was also a convenient way for the count to hide his own ignorance about how Bessler's wheels really worked.
@anon 10:03
DeleteActually, Leibniz's suggestion about Bessler using compressed air to make his wheels work isn't as far fetched as it sounds. I recall reading about church organs they had back then that had a large metal tank that the priests would pump up to a high pressure with air just before a mass and the tank would be able to supply enough air to let the organs be played during the mass. Bessler also mentioned his work with organs as playing a major role in his being able to make his pm wheels. Maybe he repaired or installed such air pressure powered organs and got the idea for his wheels from them?
To be able to pass that two month long test at Count Karl's castle, Bessler would have had to figure out a way to keep the air tanks inside of his wheels filled with compressed air since small amounts of it would be constantly escaping as their air pressure was used to shift the overbalancing weights around inside their cylinders. That might have been possible. There was a Swiss clock made years ago called the "Atmos" that was able to use changes in air pressure and temperature to keep itself wound up and running. Maybe Bessler's wheels were an early version of those clocks?
If so, then Bessler wasn't hoaxing his wheels. He may actually have believed that he had found the design for a working pm wheel. But a regenerative type atmospheric air pressure engine is really only indirectly using the energy produced by nuclear fusion reactions taking place inside of our Sun and is not making energy out of nothing. When our Sun finally dies out such engines will stop working and so are not really perpetual.
Those lead weights Bessler pulled out of the drum of the Merseburg wheel to show off during its official test would have been there to provide extra mass to the drum and allow it to store more rotational kinetic energy as it slowly accelerated up to its top speed. They would have been attached to the drum by some sort of bolt or clamp and did not do any shifting about as the wheel turned and Bessler had to remove them to make a wheel light enough to be moved over to a new set of axle supports during an official test. That extra stored rotational kinetic energy was necessary so a wheel could do an impressive lift of a heavy load of bricks. But, the compressed air in the drum tanks would probably only have been able to provide enough energy to do a few such lifts before the pressure in the tanks dropped so low that the wheel would only be able to just continue running with nothing attached to its axle.
This explanation for Bessler's wheels seems possible to me. Now I'm wondering if someone will find a 19th century patent by some inventor we've never heard of before that shows this exact kind of wheel. But then again if such a patent existed we'd probably know about it by now. If this is how Bessler's wheels actually worked, then it means every pm wheel chaser out there is just wasting his time trying to make an overbalanced type pm wheel that makes energy out of nothing to shift its weights around. That would certainly explain why no one has had any success with such designs throughout history.
jason
Every weird and wonderful eventual way Bessler could possibly, maybe, might have cheated, are all well and good, but they would all have resulted in him losing his life and the buyer retrieving their money.
DeleteThe eventuality that Bessler had a cunning plan to get himself killed, is more preposterous than his wheel contradicted the theory that it shouldn't work.
@anon 19:28
DeleteHere we go, another know-it-all ignoramus who acts like he knows what Jesus said and then makes up something totally false. Apparently he forgot that Bible scholars attend this blog as well as atheists.
Quote:
"In the first century Jesus walked the Earth predicting that his contemporaries following him would either still be alive or would rise from the dead when he made his triumphant Second Coming which was soon to happen back then. It's now two thousands year later and...NOTHING! No Second Coming. No Jesus. No heavenly kingdom on Earth."
Its pretty obvious from reading the Bible that Jesus never said He would "come back then." Besides, if His contemporaries were to "rise from the dead" in order to "be alive" when He comes, wouldn't that imply that enough time had to go by for them to die? "No heavenly kingdom on earth" - not true, its here, called the "Church." "2,000 years later and nothing, no Second Coming." No kidding there's no Second Coming, it couldn't happen until after Israel was reborn in 1948. Oh, by the way, that date was predicted to the exact year by the Bible. I suppose that was a coincidence, seeing that its easy to predict that a certain nation will be destroyed, and then reborn 2,500 years from now. At least that's the odds the Bible had.
@RH46
DeleteIf Jason is right about Bessler believing he had a genuine pm machine, then he wouldn't be worried about being killed for committing fraud by selling it because he would not consider that he was committing fraud. If the buyer complained the wheel wasn't powerful enough, then Bessler probably would have told him that he just needed a bigger wheel! If that response didn't satisfy the buyer, Bessler could just give him a refund of all of his money and he would settled for that so he didn't risk annoying Karl who acted as Bessler's protector.
@anon 22:08
You seem to think that Jesus' prophecies were open ended and that the Second Coming was not going to take place for thousands of years in the future. That view is often promoted to explain why the Second Coming hasn't taken place yet.
But, that's not what Jesus says in Matthew 16:28:
"I assure you: There are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
He's talking about some of HIS contemporaries STILL being alive when the Second Coming takes place which would have placed it in the 1st century AD.
Also, consider Matthew 24:34-35:
"This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place."
Again, he's referring to the generation of HIS contemporaries living in the 1st century AD experiencing the events of the Second Coming and not about some generation thousands of years in the future.
If the main prophecy by the central figure in Christianity was a big failure, then how much faith can one really have in any that religion?
@Anonymous 05:39
DeleteChristianity unfortunately turned into a big disappointment. It's just become the same mumbo jumbo repeated from one generation to the next with occasional internal disagreements splitting it up into different sects until now we have thousands of them each thinking they are practicing it the right way and everyone else is headed to hell for not agreeing with them. Totally ridiculous, imo. I have about as much faith in it as I do in Greek mythology. Come to think of it, I find Greek mythology a more interesting!
"...each thinking they are practicing it the right way and everyone else is headed to hell for not agreeing with them."
DeleteLol! Kind of like the situation with Bessler wheel research...everyone thinks he's on the right track and everyone else is wrong and only wasting his time.
@Anonymous 20 April 2022 at 05:39
DeleteVerse #1:
Matthew 16:28: "I assure you: There are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Answer: This was, indeed, fulfilled in their day, as the Son of Man had gone to the Father immediately after the Resurrection (John 20:17), and then returned to earth to appear to His disciples, after which He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit, which began the Spiritual Kingdom. Even the disciples mistakenly thought that he was referring to the physical kingdom, but that was to happen later.
Verse #2:
Matthew 24:34-35: "This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place."
Answer: The generation being referred to is the generation that experiences all the signs He just mentioned previously. The disciples were asking what signs will take place at the end, and Jesus gives them a list of signs, and then says that the generation that experiences all those signs will be the same generation that sees the end. For example, consider a child asking his parent, how do you know when it will snow? Then you say, well, when it gets cold, and it is at the winter part of the year, and the sky is filled with dark clouds, in this hour you will get snowfall. Here we have a prophecy talking about a generation, at some point in the future. Since that generation also includes a rebuilt temple as well as some other signs that haven't happened yet. We haven't quite arrived at the start of that final generation, but I assume we're close. As for the timing of a generation, that is generally considered a human lifespan of time, or 120 years.
Verse #3:
Acts 3:20-21: "Jesus...whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things."
Answer: I added this for clarification. This is Peter addressing the crowd, and since all things were not reconstituted back to their original order in his day, I'm sure he knew full well that Jesus was not returning to earth in his lifetime. Even Paul in II Thessalonians 2:2 warned against a forged letter circulated in his name saying that "the Lord's Second Coming can happen any minute now!" Paul knew it wasn't happening in his lifetime, and that it was a long way off from his era.
@ anon 03:18
Deletehere are some signs: wars, earthquakes, pandemics, famines...
wow, looks like they're all happening now...
if you make a chart, the number of wars per year began to skyrocket in the 1800s...
the intensity and frequency of earthquakes has jumped exponentially in recent decades...
we still in covid pandemic...
experts now warning famines and food shortages on the way...
@Anon03:18
DeleteIt's likely that the endings of the four gospels were fictionalized accounts added later to make it sound like Jesus actually resurrected and ascended into heaven. Mary Magdalene probably did show up Sunday morning after the Roman guards left and paid some people in the area to roll that big stone away from the entrance for her. She, like his apostles, believed Jesus was alive and she wanted to let him out. However, when she went into the tomb all she found was his corpse that was starting to stink.
She then removed the shroud that had been laid on his body, neatly folded it up, and put it aside and that's now the famous "Shroud of Turin" in possession of the R.C.Ch. Next, she hired someone with a cart to transport Jesus' corpse down to another tomb south of Jerusalem that was actually accidentally found back in 1980 during construction activity there and which the R.C.Ch tried to cover up for 25 years! She then ran back to the rest of the apostles in hiding and gave them a story about how Jesus came back to life again! She basically manufactured a fake resurrection for them which is what they wanted to hear and which was necessary to keep their cult from dying out completely.
When Jesus' mother Mary finally died off, her body also "mysteriously" disappeared from her tomb! Most likely, Mary Magdalene took care of that too. Everyone said Jesus' mother resurrected and also went up to heaven to be with her son. However, her bones were also found in that same tomb south of Jerusalem along with Jesus' bones in 1980!
Like Mormonism, Christianity is based on a hoax that by chance just happened to catch on. On the day Jesus was executed there were probably a thousand others also executed all over the Roman Empire. Some of them also claimed they were prophets or messiahs and were the leaders of local cults. They were all executed, like Jesus, because they and their followers were a threat to either Roman governance or some local entrenched religion's clergy. The solution to the problem they posed was a quick crucifixion, hanging, or beheading.
I've often wondered how the four gospels would have ended if Jesus had been decapitated like John the Baptist. Most likely, Mary Magdalene would have run back to the apostles claiming she'd seen Jesus with his head reattached to his body!
You have one really bizare explanaton for the christian religion anon 05:34. But I guess it makes more sense then believing a carpenter came back to life again two thousnad years ago after a brutal roman execution and is till alive out there in space somewhere.
DeleteMaybe it's true that people will believe anything if it's repeated over and over again. They figure it must be true or it wouln't get repeated so much. Christian beliefs have been repeated for two thousand years now but I think in the last couple decades more and mre people are tuning out the message especially younger ones. They are more interested in their cell phones, video games, and music. Praying in churches every week so they can go to heaven someday isnt that important to them anymore. But the religios can explan that. Its all part of the devils plan to grab their souls befor the end of the world comes! But they've said that for the last two thousand years to explain why people were losing interest in their religion and will probbably be saying it for thousands of years to come.
@anon 05:34 wrote "I've often wondered how the four gospels would have ended if Jesus had been decapitated like John the Baptist."
DeleteWhat if the Romans had cremated his corpse like they did to Julius Cesar?!
@Anonymous21 April 2022 at 05:34
DeleteYou have just asked the MOST important question. Even if you agreed with me that all the miracles took place and all the prophecies came true, if the Resurrection had not occurred, then there would have been no victory over death, hell, and the grave. Thus, of all points in Christianity, this is the one that needs absolute proof of evidence of it having occurred. Do we have such evidence? According to the Shroud of Turin Research Project scientists, the Shroud of Turin was a snapshot in time, burned by electromagnetic radiation to make a photographic negative, created by a quantum event horizon (it was subjected to a time-warped black hole), thus showing hyperdimensional realm in a lower dimensional context. Now if you wish to claim that some medieval forger had hoaxed this Shroud, please do tell how they had such technology to do this hyperdimensional warping, which we don't have today. And don't say "aliens," because that implies a "higher power." If you're going to invoke a "higher power," you may as well accept the existence of a hyperdimensional being (aka "spiritual"), who lives in higher dimensions (the existence of which has already been proven by CERN).
You write, "It's likely that the endings of the four gospels were fictionalized accounts added later to make it sound like Jesus actually resurrected and ascended into heaven." Such "fiction" would have been discovered and immediately subjected to destruction by others who knew the truth of the matter. However, these things were already described by historians. The four gospels were written by four different eyewitnesses with four different accounts who never conversed with each other. For all four to come up with the same exact fictional story on their own is not only illogical, but absurd. "Mary Magdalene probably did show up Sunday morning after the Roman guards left and paid some people in the area to roll that big stone away from the entrance for her." If the Roman guards had left, they would have been KILLED for going AWOL! By the way, they were struck with great fear. In those days, they were not going to be afraid of a gang of fisherman disciples. Rather, they would have been feared by the disciples! What made the soldiers afraid to the point that the Pharisees told them to make up a story about the disciples stealing the body to save their hides? And if that hoax they concocted was true, why didn't they continue to peddle it when they constantly tried to crush the new movement? Why is it that later on in Acts, they KNEW that He was resurrected, when Paul used the argument against the Sadducees? If anyone wanted to push the "disciples stole the body" story, it was them, yet they didn't do it! Why? "However, her bones were also found in that same tomb south of Jerusalem along with Jesus' bones in 1980!" Mary was NOT resurrected, and even if she was, that has nothing to do with anything. She is not any more special than any other woman, despite what the Roman Catholic cult has tried to peddle over the years since the day Catholicism was invented by Constantine in his attempt to destroy true Christianity. Further, Jesus bones have never been found anywhere. I would encourage you to go to the tomb and look inside as many tourists to Israel do each year, and I assure you there are no bones there lol! There were 500 eyewitnesses to the Resurrection of Jesus. If this is looked at like a 2000 year old cold case, it would be concluded in a court of law that 500 eyewitness accounts to the same event is proof of occurrence, not mass hallucination! Besides, anyone in those days could ask all 500 of them to confirm their story. There were no objections, if you're wondering. "But they were all perpetrating a lie to keep Christianity going!" you say. Ok, what would it benefit them to do that? Who would subject themselves to crucifixion, burning at the stake, drowning, beating, fed to lions, slavery, and all the other brutal persecutions they endured, for a lie? Would you be willing to be tortured to death to perpetrate a lie? I seriously doubt it. And for what gain? If Jesus didn't prove He was God by a real Resurrection, thus giving no proof of a Heaven after death, why die for it?
Delete@anon23;44 I saw a movie recently about a guy in the Soviet Union who was captured and beaten for his faith, trying to get him to renounce Christ. Then they dragged his little boy in and started beating him severely with iron rods in front of him. The boy pleaded with his father, "Don't give up Jesus! Whatever you do dad, don't give up Jesus!" The boy finally died under the beatings. That's conviction of truth if you ask me. If they had any doubt of God they would have never went through that.
Delete@Anon21:52
DeleteIf they burned up Jesus body and dumped his ashes in the sea of galilee then Mary Magdalene would have gone back to the apostels and claimed she was soaking her feet on its shore and suddnly Jesus came up out of the water because his ashes came back together again! When you have a cult bringing in the shekels by the basket full you make sure you keep it going no matter what you have to dream up to do it!
@Anon 23:44
You wrote "Further, Jesus bones have never been found anywhere." You need to google "tomb of the ten osuaries" and read about that discovery they made back in 1980 that the catholic church tried to keep secret. They found ten first cnetury AD limestone boxes with bones in them. They had one with Jesus mother's bones in it, one with Mary Magdalene's bones, one with Jesus's bones, one with Jesus's brother James bones, and even one with the bones of the SON of Jesus! Almost the whole clan in one tomb. There was no Joseph though. He probably died when Jesus was in his 20's and they put him somewhere else. After they had all of the bones at some museum in israel for a few days to study some rabis came in, scooped them all up, and buried them in a hole in the ground together somewhere else.
All of this actually happened but you won't hear any of the priests talking about it. That's because it would be very bad for their religion business if they did. They would then have nothing to sell every Sunday.
Those who think Jesus is about to return might enjoy this free to watch 1997 documentary titled "7 Signs of Christ's Return":
Deletehttps://tubitv.com/movies/447776/7-signs-of-christ-s-return?start=true
anon 23:44 wrote:
Delete"According to the Shroud of Turin Research Project scientists, the Shroud of Turin was a snapshot in time, burned by electromagnetic radiation to make a photographic negative, created by a quantum event horizon (it was subjected to a time-warped black hole), thus showing hyperdimensional realm in a lower dimensional context."
There a simpler, less sci-fi explanation for the image on the linen shroud. A dead human body quickly begins decomposing and gives off dozens of different chemical compounds in the form of gases and liquids. Some of them smell really bad. Most likely many of the liquids were blotted up into the linen fibers of the shroud which would have been loosely flapped over Jesus' corpse and in physical contact with his skin. The chemicals in those liquids then reacted with other gases coming out of Jesus' corpse and stained a microscopically thin layer on the surface of each linen fiber. Anyone who uses modern hair coloring products can understand how this can happen when a mixture of chemicals are applied to hair fibers. Notice that the stains are the darkest on the parts of the shroud that were in contact with Jesus' skin which, on negatives images of the shroud turn out to be the lightest.
There is a way to test this simple explanation that I'm surprised no one has done yet. Just get a newly dead human body and, without embalming it, lay it naked on a sheet of linen placed on top of a stone slab and then cover the corpse loosely with another sheet of linen. Three days later examine the two linen sheets and you should find tinted stains on it similar to those on the shroud of Turin. Maybe this was never done because they realized if they did it and the image was similar, it would prove that nothing miraculous happened to form the image on the actual shroud of Turin? Better to just keep promoting some mysterious and miraculous sounding "explanation" and get some "scientists" to agree with it.
I've also wondered why no one asks where Jesus got the clothes he was wearing after he allegedly resurrected and left his tomb. He would have emerged buck naked since he left his shroud behind in the tomb. Did he then have to approach some stranger and say "Excuse me, sir, but I've just come back from the dead...can you lend me some clothing until I meet up with my apostles later?"
@Anonymous24 April 2022 at 01:48
Delete"When you have a cult bringing in the shekels by the basket full you make sure you keep it going no matter what you have to dream up to do it!"
Can you provide evidence that the early church was making "shekels by the basket"? According to historical evidence they were mostly poor.
"tomb of the ten osuaries"
There were MANY families in 1st century AD Israel that had a father Joseph, mother Miriam, and son Jesus. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing. They have the wrong Jesus.
Every now and then somebody finds "Jesus bones" from another Jesus "bone box." The latest piece of crap from Simcha Jacobovici actually uses a hoax concocted by the Knights Templar to create a fake tourist attraction so they could rake in the money. There's your real cult.
@Anonymous25 April 2022 at 04:38
"There is a way to test this simple explanation that I'm surprised no one has done yet. Just get a newly dead human body and, without embalming it, lay it naked on a sheet of linen placed on top of a stone slab and then cover the corpse loosely with another sheet of linen."
That has already been done. The linen fibers were burned, not stained. And the burn is too thin to have been caused by an acidic chemical that burns things. Sorry, but your explanation is not simple at all.
"I've also wondered why no one asks where Jesus got the clothes he was wearing after he allegedly resurrected and left his tomb."
That's a truly silly question! Anybody who has the power to turn stones into bread can certainly make clothes! That has nothing to do with the resurrection either.
anon 00:39 wrote:
Delete"According to historical evidence they were mostly poor."
Poor? Did you forget that Judas Iscariot, a thief, was Jesus' TREASURER? He kept track of all of the incoming "free will, love donations" from those who thought they'd get good luck or miracle cures by contributing to the little itinerant cult. They weren't the only cults traveling around Judea at the time and working the same kind of scam. Anybody wonder where those apostles following Jesus around, most of whom were married and had children, supported their families while absent from their fishing jobs? Who paid to support Jesus' mother after his real father, Joseph dropped dead, and Jesus decided he'd had enough of being a carpenter and took off to save the "sinners" of the world? How did Jesus pay for that "seamless garment" that he liked to wear and which the Roman soldiers gambled for as he hung dying on a cross? Must have been pretty valuable for them to gamble over. Who paid for Jesus and his twelve apostles to celebrate Passover in the "upper room". Catered feasts and upper room rentals aren't cheap.
No, they were taking in plenty of cash and gifts and not paying a widow's mite of it for taxes. The churches are still doing that nowadays and those that don't even believe in their nonsense have to make up that lost tax revenue from them which takes money out of their families' lives. I think it was only on very rare occasions that Jesus and his apostles had to spend the night sleeping outdoors under the stars. When they did, that was used for promotional purposes to get sympathy and more donations from others. They were either provided with free food and lodgings from true believers or had to pay for them from nonbelievers who only had faith in gold and silver coins with images of Roman emperors stamped on them.
Jesus didn't need to have clothes when he exited his tomb as a living person because that never happened. They just threw his corpse in the back of a donkey drawn cart, threw a sheet over it, and then moved it down to that new tomb in Talpiot. I recall reading of a Canadian mathematician who was an expert in probability theory and statistics. Using the frequencies with which the names carved on those ten ossuaries were used in the first century AD, he computed that the probability of them all occurring in that one tomb by RANDOM CHANCE was 1 in 600. That means that there was a 599 in 600 probability that it was not just random chance, but that those names belonged to people who were actually related to each other and they would have been all of the members of the so-called "holy" family.
@Anonymous26 April 2022 at 03:00
Delete"Poor? Did you forget that Judas Iscariot, a thief, was Jesus' TREASURER? He kept track of all of the incoming "free will, love donations" from those who thought they'd get good luck or miracle cures by contributing to the little itinerant cult."
Holding the money bag that feeds you doesn't mean you're rich. You seem to forget that a vial of perfume was considered worth far more than Judas ever carried in that bag. You also seem to have forgotten the story how the disciples picked ears of corn in a field to eat on the way. This was a common practice, but only done by those who were poor.
Free will love donations? I seem to recall beggars in Acts that wanted money from the apostles, not giving to them. Then, he replied "silver and gold have I none." In other words, he was as poor as the beggar, if not worse.
"Anybody wonder where those apostles following Jesus around, most of whom were married and had children, supported their families while absent from their fishing jobs?"
The job of a fisherman meant you flunked the rabbi test and wasn't lucky to be his follower. But Jesus, being a rabbi, called those disciples to follow him. So what makes you think they had to support their families? They would have been cared for by the common welfare in exchange for the honor of serving under a chief rabbi.
"Who paid to support Jesus' mother after his real father, Joseph dropped dead, and Jesus decided he'd had enough of being a carpenter and took off to save the "sinners" of the world?"
Actually, Jesus had John take care of that. You'd know that from reading the book of John. John became the adopted son of Mary, as was custom, to replace a departing son. Again, the wages of a rabbi supported her. This is not a complicated issue.
"How did Jesus pay for that "seamless garment" that he liked to wear and which the Roman soldiers gambled for as he hung dying on a cross? Must have been pretty valuable for them to gamble over."
A tunic? Really? A common garment that every rabbi wore? The soldiers gambled with it for fun, not because it had a lot of value. Besides, being a carpenter would have paid for it, if nothing else.
"Who paid for Jesus and his twelve apostles to celebrate Passover in the "upper room". Catered feasts and upper room rentals aren't cheap."
It's a big assumption to think that the host charged a rabbi anything for Passover. That should have been a given, seeing the high holy day approaching. The disciples even explained this as a reason to the host.
Upper room rental? In those days not much. Catered feast? Who said it was catered? The disciples would most likely have brought their own meal, per the Leviticus law of bringing each house his own lamb.
"No, they were taking in plenty of cash and gifts and not paying a widow's mite of it for taxes."
DeleteActually, they were having a hard time paying taxes because they were POOR. If you recall, a coin had to be found in a fish's mouth to pay the taxes. They didn't have enough money to pay taxes, so they needed a fish to give them a coin to pay it.
"The churches are still doing that nowadays and those that don't even believe in their nonsense have to make up that lost tax revenue from them which takes money out of their families' lives."
That's called nonprofit 501c3.
"Jesus didn't need to have clothes when he exited his tomb as a living person because that never happened. They just threw his corpse in the back of a donkey drawn cart, threw a sheet over it, and then moved it down to that new tomb in Talpiot."
Then how do you explain the eyewitness testimony of 500 people who saw Him alive AFTER the resurrection, all of whose testimonies were PROVEN in the court of law judged by those who HATED Jesus? If anybody had motive to dismiss their stories as false, it was those judges of ancient Israel!
"Using the frequencies with which the names carved on those ten ossuaries were used in the first century AD, he computed that the probability of them all occurring in that one tomb by RANDOM CHANCE was 1 in 600."
Well isn't that interesting? Since ancient Israel had a population of 3 million people, then by random chance alone, that gives you 5,000 tombs with the "Jesus family" combination. The odds are not in your favor!
"That means that there was a 599 in 600 probability that it was not just random chance, but that those names belonged to people who were actually related to each other"
Isn't it funny that nobody ever did DNA testing on these bones? Big chance the Knights Templar hoaxed it. That doesn't disprove the Resurrection in the least.
Anon 23:34 wrote:
Delete"You also seem to have forgotten the story how the disciples picked ears of corn in a field to eat on the way."
>That's theft of someone else's property! I guess they never learned the 8th Commandment: "Thou Shalt Not Steal".
"That's called nonprofit 501c3."
>Many call it tax evasion!
"Then how do you explain the eyewitness testimony of 500 people who saw Him alive AFTER the resurrection..."
>The fact that it's an exact number like that proves it's invented. Why wasn't it 487 or 519? None of those alleged witnesses is identified. Whoever wrote up the gospels should have made up a more impressive number like 5,000 or 10,000.
"Isn't it funny that nobody ever did DNA testing on these bones?"
Unfortunately, the DNA in the bone marrow cells was too degraded to accurately test. But, there was a test done on the residue on the insides of the limestone boxes that was able to find intact "mitochondrial RNA" in them. This can reliably be used to show if two individuals had the same mother. That analysis showed that all of the holy family members in the tomb were directly related to "Mary wife of Joseph" with the sole exceptions of Mary Magdalene and Judah, Son of Jesus. That fits in with a theory that she and Jesus were actually married and she had children by him. The mitochondria RNA also showed that the bones in the box marked "Judah, Son of Jesus" were biologically related to Mary Magdalene so she was his mother. The box with Jesus' bones was placed on top of the box with Mary Magdalene's bones in it. That was, by custom, only done for married Jewish couples.
There's a desperate effort underway by the religious to try to cast doubt upon this major archaeological discovery and dismiss it as not really being the holy family. So far, they haven't had much success. Its discovery proves that the "good news" of Christianity is just another MYTH like all of the others ones that have come along since ancient times.
@Anonymous27 April 2022 at 05:32
Delete"That's theft of someone else's property! I guess they never learned the 8th Commandment: "Thou Shalt Not Steal"."
Actually if you read my comment, it wasn't theft. The law was that you couldn't harvest all your corn, but had to leave some behind for the poor to pick. This is the background in the story of Ruth, by the way. This was the ancient welfare program before there was social security and food stamps. It's the same thing, economically speaking. You're just dodging the truth that the early church was composed of poor folks.
"Many call it tax evasion!"
That's the government's problem, not the church's. The tax law is what makes that happen.
"The fact that it's an exact number like that proves it's invented."
A rounded number is common even by todays standards. If 500 people attended a rally, is it REALLY an exact number?
"Unfortunately, the DNA in the bone marrow cells was too degraded to accurately test."
Actually, they supposedly burned the bones and buried the ashes in an unknown location.
"The mitochondria RNA also showed that the bones in the box marked "Judah, Son of Jesus" were biologically related to Mary Magdalene so she was his mother."
So if you really believe that Jesus married Mary and had a son named Judah after the crucifixion, wouldn't he have to be RESURRECTED AND ALIVE to do that? Or did you watch too many zombie apocalypse movies???
"There's a desperate effort underway by the religious to try to cast doubt upon this major archaeological discovery and dismiss it as not really being the holy family."
It's not hard to disprove. There have been MANY so-called "holy family" tombs. One such tomb pushed by Simcha Jacobovici was marked with crosses and other templar insignia, which were not used by any church group until hundreds of years later.
Also, the hoaxed "ancient manuscript" showing Mary Magdalene as the wife of Jesus adds more evidence of a giant conspiracy to push this lie on the public.
The templars who hoaxed this tomb made even bigger errors: no Joseph, Mary was hundreds of miles away, and where's John?
"with the sole exceptions of Mary Magdalene and Judah, Son of Jesus."
Scientists say mtdna goes back thousands of years to the start of mankind. So the gap between Mary, mother of Jesus, and Judah, supposed son of Jesus, shows that the templars threw random bones in the boxes and then marked them with names so they could have tourists.
anon 21:28 wrote:
Delete"So if you really believe that Jesus married Mary and had a son named Judah after the crucifixion, wouldn't he have to be RESURRECTED AND ALIVE to do that?"
No, Jesus would have married her more than a decade before his execution. That means that their son, Judah, was a teenager when Jesus was crucified. But, it's also likely that Mary Magdalene had a second child by Jesus! There was some sort of power struggle in the cult after the crucifixion to see who would lead it. I suspect that Jesus' brother James (his bones were also found in that tomb!) was eventually pushed out and then the power struggle shaped up between Mary Magdalene and the apostle Peter. Peter would have claimed that Jesus wanted him to lead the church, but Mary Magdalene wanted her and Jesus' son, Judah, to be the leader since he was Jesus' heir apparent. I suspect that Peter then secretly had Judah murdered to prevent that and Mary Magdalene was advised by Jesus' mother Mary to escape to Egypt like she did after the birth of Jesus to escape the wrath of Herod the Great. Greed for shekels and power can make even the most professed of "holy" men do some really unholy things!
The two Mary's and some faithful followers of theirs then traveled along the north coast of Africa to escape. There is a historical account of two women named Mary and some others who landed on the southern Mediterranean coast of Gaul, now called France, in the year 42 AD. They arrived in a small boat without sails which means it had to be rowed. They had a 12 year old girl with them named Sarah which means "princess" in Hebrew. She would have been Jesus' daughter and born around 30 AD which is either the year Jesus was crucified or three years before he was crucified if one accepts the 33 AD date as the execution year. They left her in the care of a family in Gaul and then both returned to Judea. Supposedly, she married into a wealthy family whose descendants eventually founded the Carolingian dynasty. So Sarah would have eventually caused Jesus' genes to be spread throughout Europe!
The Roman Catholic Church promotes Jesus as having been a celibate bachelor all of his life, but that is highly unlikely. That depiction of him is intended to make him appear as a god-like being who is far above mere mortal carnal desires. But, the reality is that he was just a normal human being with normal desires which included sex.
@Anonymous28 April 2022 at 06:06
Delete"No, Jesus would have married her more than a decade before his execution. That means that their son, Judah, was a teenager when Jesus was crucified."
More than a decade? He only just met her mere months before his execution! So you're saying he was a time traveler too? I mean, after all, he had to give John to his mother to be her heir in his place, so "Judah" wasn't born then ... so he had a time machine??? Well, even if he did, that doesn't explain how this "judah" (who is never mentioned in any account) was born and alive BEFORE the crucifixion, alive AFTER the crucifixion, yet didn't exist DURING the crucifixion.
@anon 20:56
DeleteMary Magdalene came from the town of Magdala in Galilee which was close to both Nazareth and Cana. Jesus, helping his aging father with his carpentry business (some sources claim they did general construction) would have been in that region frequently in his early to mid-twenties and that's when he and Mary Magdalene probably first met. It's possible she had his first child, Judah, shortly after that.
Later, when Jesus was about 30 years old he performed his first water into wine miracle at the wedding feast in Cana and some believe that feast was actually to celebrate HIS wedding to Mary Magdalene! That was also around the age when most rabbis began their ministries and that's when Jesus began his. All of the rabbis back then were allowed to and actually obligated to get married. Jesus would not have been an exception. Mary Magdalene was also cured of some mysterious illness by Jesus and was probably his most devoted follower because of that and also her being his wife. She even became the leader of a group of women who traveled around with Jesus and helped support him financially.
The idea that Jesus had a son, Judah, already around age 5 or 6 years old when Jesus was 30 is not inconceivable. If Jesus was actually born around 5 BC and he was crucified in 33 AD, then he was 38 years old when he died. If we add 8 years to the age of his male son who was 5 or 6 years old when Jesus was 30, then that would mean that Judah was 13 or 14 years old at the time of the crucifixion of his father. Judah would, according to Jewish custom, have been considered an adult and his mother, Mary Magdalene, would have considered him ready to take over his father's ministry. The apostle Peter, however, had a different opinion about that!
Interesting debate about Christianity here. Most likely the official history of it given to us isn't the same as the actual history which we'll probably never know in detail. We'll also never know about all of the others claiming divine powers that came along before, during, and after the life of Jesus. They were also all convinced they were chosen by the gods for some special mission on planet Earth. Others before Jesus also claimed to be the sons of a god.
DeleteSomeone mentioned how poor Jesus and his apostles were and how they were stealing corn from a field and had women raising money for them. As soon as I read that I wondered why, if Jesus could turn water into wine, that he didn't start doing that and then selling the wine to raise money? If he was who he claimed to be, why couldn't he just pick up a handful of pebbles and turn them into gold nuggets?
Religious people aren't bothered by any of this and just accept whatever version of christianity is given to them by their local church leaders. Questioning it isn't encouraged and can even get one kicked out of a church. That probably happened to Bessler several times which is why he decided to come up with his own version of christianity.
@Anonymous30 April 2022 at 05:17
Delete"Most likely the official history of it given to us isn't the same as the actual history which we'll probably never know in detail."
What exactly makes you think that the ancient historians, both Christian and non-Christian, would all invent the same exact "fictional" record of history?
"Someone mentioned how poor Jesus and his apostles were and how they were stealing corn from a field and had women raising money for them."
For the last time, they were NOT "stealing" anything. I want to make it perfectly clear that this was the ancient welfare system by law, please read the book of Ruth to see a prime example. As for women raising money for them, where in the world did you come up with that idea?
"that he didn't start doing that and then selling the wine to raise money? If he was who he claimed to be, why couldn't he just pick up a handful of pebbles and turn them into gold nuggets?"
Actually, He could have turned stones into bread when He went on a 40 day fast in the wilderness. If you want to know why He prefered to get a coin from a fish's mouth rather than make gold nuggets, you can ask the same as to why He refused to make bread and instead desired the Word of God.
"Religious people aren't bothered by any of this and just accept whatever version of christianity is given to them by their local church leaders."
Bothered by what, exactly? By bizarre fictitious ideas thrown around by atheists to discredit solid historical facts by promoting such fantasies as "facts" in their effort to undermine Christianity's true history? Ridiculous.
"Questioning it isn't encouraged and can even get one kicked out of a church. That probably happened to Bessler several times which is why he decided to come up with his own version of christianity."
Actually, everyone is supposed to be a "Berean," which means question everything before believeing it, including whatever your pastor tells you. Whatever makes you think that Christians are supposed to believe everything they're told? The only place that could be is one of the false churches, such as Roman Catholicism, which is what Bessler was trying to escape from.
@Anonymous29 April 2022 at 05:44The fact that you are willing to make up absolute fairy tales, which are so fictitious that even a five year old would giggle at, and then put tremendous amounts of faith in them as being true, and yet at the same time disregard vast amounts of historical evidence and confirmed accounts, proves that you have no intention of finding out the truth of the matter, but have already devoted yourself steadfastly against it. So steadfast, in fact, that you are willing to believe the most insane, ridiculous, and totally disprovable stories, and put huge amounts of faith in them, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I have come to believe that there are no true atheists in the world. Pretty much the so-called "atheists" can be put in three categories. First, are the "agnostics," who honestly do not know if God exists or not, and willingly search to find the answer. Second are those who could care less, and would not devote any of their time to a debate such as this one. The third group are those who hate God with a fervor, and devote themselves to criticize and attack everything to do with God and the Bible, and don't even know why. I can tell you why. People hate what they fear. And it is an inner fear of that chance, that possibility, that God might indeed be real after all. Most of these types of atheists I have met are very well acquainted with Scripture, and can easily quote verses and are familiar with Biblical topics. This is not because they happen to love reading religious books concerning deities that they think don't exist. The proof is simple. They will always attack Christianity, but rarely (or never) attack Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., and if a Muslim was to debate them, they could not quote from the quran any more than I could. The fact is, they KNOW that if God is indeed real, it would have to be the God of the Christians. There is no logical alternative. So because of this, they turn their attention to constantly belittling and insulting Christianity's history in the hopes of easing their own consciences, which constantly have a nagging fear of the possibility that God might exist after all. Some of them were brought up in the church as children and grew bored and disillusioned with what they felt was an absolute waste of time and money. I feel sorry for those who were raised in the false churches and thought that they were pristine examples of the true church, and the epitome of real Christianity.
DeleteI have found it nearly impossible to change the minds of those who have strong faith in a lie. Many a young child I have tried to tell, "Santa Claus isn't real, he doesn't live in the North Pole, he was invented by Coca-Cola," but the child ignores all the evidence I bring to his attention, and instead tries to convince me that Santa is real, saying "I'm telling you, I sat on his very knee!" Here, the child symbolizes the atheist, Santa symbolizes the myth of a world without God (take evolution, for example, as an explanation of how we got here without Creationism), and the child's parent – the one who is the REAL gift-giver to the child – symbolizes God. The child simply can't believe that his parent is the gift-giver, any more than the atheist can believe that God is the Creator. So I'm not going to try to convince you to believe the truth, but will let you find that for yourself. My job is done here. If you are right, and I am wrong, then we each live our lives as we see fit, and then life is over. But if I am right, and you are wrong, you will never be able to say to me "Why didn't you tell me about Jesus!" because I did. I have presented to you all the evidence. The fact that you keep coming back to reply to my posts is proof that you KNOW, deep down inside, that there is a God. And you are desperately trying to console yourself and drown out your fear by attempting to discredit Christianity piece by piece. You are trying to soothe your aching conscience by hoping that somebody – anybody – will agree with you, and in your own mind, convince yourself you've won this debate. I know what you will say. You will tell me that you don't have such thoughts. You will tell me that you are absolutely convinced that God doesn't exist. You might even be mad at God for some unfortunate event in your life; but then you ask yourself, how can I get mad at a God who doesn't exist? And you begin mulling it over and over in your mind again. You will never admit it in public; you can barely admit it to yourself; but you KNOW that God is real. This is my last post in this conversation, because my job here is finished; now the choice is yours. Will you continue to gamble eternity on a bet that everything around you just came about by chance, and be tormented with that nagging question in the back of your mind what will happen after this life is over? Or will you finally surrender all to Christ, and bring peace to your soul, by believing in Him, that he is God who came in the flesh, died for you, and rose again in victory? Will you make that confession of faith in Him? The choice is yours. The gift is free. All you have to do is call on His Name and accept it.
DeleteAnon 04:06 wrote:
Delete"I have found it nearly impossible to change the minds of those who have strong faith in a lie.'
The atheists of the world feel the same exact way about the religious kooks out there. They found that they are usually incapable of any sort of rational argumentation when it comes to the religious programming they've received. That programming is constantly reinforced by them regular attending "services", reading the "holy book" every day, and only associating with others doing the same.
These are all techniques used by various established religions and even just starting cults to grow their numbers and keep the $$$'s flowing in. Cult members are usually told that anyone not in their cult is an outsider and potential enemy. That helps to keep a cult member from "straying" and possibly leaving the cult and "back sliding" into a "sin filled life" again. He is told that the world "out there" is evil and he should have no part of it. Often he is encouraged to avoid his own family members and even a spouse who decides not to join.
It's sad that in the modern scientific world of the 21st century we still have these relics from ancient times hanging on and being used to manipulate people's minds with fictitious concepts like angels, blessings, immortal souls, miracles, sins, and blissful or horrifying afterlives when there isn't a single bit of credible evidence to support any of it. I think that Karl Marx was right when he wrote "religion is the opiate of the masses".
Many people have addictive personalities and once they get a dose of that "old time religion" drug, they can quickly get addicted to it. They can get so focused on its fantasies that they lose touch with the real world and then drift off into an alternate reality religious fantasy world. Even with psychotherapy, they can have much difficulty regaining their grasp on reality again.
There were many small cults, like the Manson Family, that started up during the 1960's when there were a lot of young people confused and looking for guidance in a world that only seemed to be filled with war and violence. The cult leaders were right there waiting to scoop them up and they did. Special psychologists called "deprogrammers" were often hired by the parents of those kids and would literally have to kidnap the kids and give them emergency psychotherapy in an attempt to restore their sanity. It was a bad time and my fear is that it could return and be even worse in the coming years.
Mornin John .. I don't mean to be mystical this morning, but following on from your blog theme .. I suggest you google search "the arrow does not seek the target, the target draws the arrow".
ReplyDeleteThe upshot being that the universe has targets appropriate for the times, and needs an arrow to draw to that target, at that right time. It is a psychological reversal of a man, his will, and his purpose, as he often sees it.
An analogy would be a wire carries current - it also has resistance - the less the resistance the easier the current can flow. Lower the resistance so it can flow to the target.
"We must be aware of what we attract in life, because it is no accident or coincidence. We must chase what we want, but sometimes we don't need to make things happen."
** not necessarily my beliefs but I have some empathy for them.
-f
Morning fletch. I looked up ‘the arrow does not seek the target, the target draws the arrow’, interesting but I won’t discuss it here, suffice to say it made a connection with me, so thanks.
DeleteI think we know what we want but life’s trials, tribulations and successes divert us from our target, and yet sometimes the arrow may be subconsciously steered in the right direction by seemingly accident? I’m probably waffling so ignore!
JC
Religious, nothing to see, skepticism is different, skeptics are those who do research and produce models, they become skeptics by EVIDENCE... The others know that it will never work, so no skepticism. LOL
ReplyDeleteThe real reason we are unable to produce a miracle is that we are all egos who are unable to fully share their research.
I am the first one when I present a model to the public on youtube, it is often that I am already on something else... So if my fathers came to criticize me to advance or test things, we would already be very far, maybe even arrived. But everyone wants to be the discoverer...
Only a handful of very determined people or even a society or an association with restricted access to members can hope to reach the grail. It would be the society or the association which would discover and not an individual.
Otherwise good luck.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
There is no doubt that most of us, if not all would like to get some kudos for solving Bessler’s wheel, be it in the form of acknowledgement by our peers, fame or fortune.
DeleteJC
Sure I would like to make a buck off of it but, more than that, I would love to prove the blanketly blank, so and so's critics wrong! I live for that-----------also the Gravity Wheel would just about kill Putin and Russia's war machine. They could mix there oil with there vodka. Yes, the time is right------------Sam
Deletebessler’s wheel came and went because it wasn’t the answer for anyone’s energy needs then, however you believe it worked - gravity, momentum exchange, environmental exchange.
ReplyDeletegive credit where it’s due- the physicists that examined it and witnessed it took a pass and advised any potential buyers the same.
the easiest route forward is improving renewable energy technology.
Hi Jeff .. from what I remember of the witness testimonials, certificates, and letters we have, no one publicly or privately said it was a fraud, except for the well known detractors of Wagner, Gartner, and Borlach. Of course there was the arrest and court case with the maid testimony John mentions above. Perhaps that can be tempered by the scientists reasonable reticence to not go against Karl's patronage and against what he said to his ministers about the wheels etc, for some of them. I don't remember anyone actively advising against the purchase other than pointing out that it could be developed further etc (normal cautiousness). And that none had any real idea how it generated a superior force and gain in momentum, tho there were some theories, particularly by Christian Wolff.
ReplyDeleteToday the easiest route forward is already happening - renewable energy technologies are being developed and improved for commercial use etc. I for one have always had a dual pronged attack wrt Bessler and his wheels .. 1. if it was a fraud how did he do it ? .. 2. if authentic and genuine then how did he do it ?
In both cases an internal force must be generated to accelerate the wheel and for it to do Work similar to his 'performance test' conditions.
I can accept either outcome providing it used the technology of his day (meeting Karl's easy to understand and simple to build standard) and could replicate his public performance tests - beyond reasonable doubt !
Like many it is a hobby for me that sometimes takes on a life of its own as we struggle to understand how his wheels might have worked and complete the puzzle of his life's achievements. And if we can prove that it was genuine free-energy then it will eventually find it's place in today's energy landscape, and we can all rest a little easier, especially for Bessler, and the current energy space will become a little more crowded. Hopefully in a good way for the planet !
-f
My attitude is similar to yours fletch except my hobby became a bit more than a relaxing part time interest and it kind of took on a life of its own!
DeleteI sometimes worry what impact a fully working Bessler’s wheel would have on all those alternative energy sources currently vying for long term credibility. Wind and solar energy, even nuclear. Would all investment in such energies disappear? It’s a bit early to worry about that just now, but maybe it could become a concern in five or ten years time. Market forces will eventually come into play and some sources will fall by the wayside, but I think it would turn out to be the best way forward.
JC
@JC
DeleteMost likely if a fully working Bessler wheel finally shows up, the scientists will take a quick look at it and realize how low its power output is. Then they will dismiss it as being about as useful for solving the world's energy problems as were Franklin's electrostatic motor, the Crookes radiometer, or the radium electroscope. Their dismissal will then guarantee that corporate and government research funding keeps right on flowing into other more promising renewable energy technologies. The ultimate of these will be fusion power which, if it can be achieved, could completely eliminate the use of all fossil fuels almost overnight and really apply the brakes to climate change.
@JC .. yes, my "hobby" is more intense than relaxing at times lol. It's the way I'm wired, for good or bad. ATEOTD we ain't whittling sticks, and more like trying to vindicate a man from 300 years ago and find a scientific grail. Should be done by lunch time ;7) Yes, market forces will sort out the front runners for our times and others will wither and die. Power output potential will have a part to play.
DeleteFWIW .. I 100% believe that Bessler was genuine in his discovery of a true Mechanical PM (free-energy) Principle !
-f
One thing is for sure; even 300 years later, Bessler has no lack of enemies----------Sam
ReplyDeleteYou got that right Sam! It never fails to amaze me that some people simply cannot or will not recognise the huge potential in Bessler’s wheel. Guess we’ll just have to show them.
DeleteJC
They have no clue what a prototype is. His wheel(s) were only meant to show proof of concept. I.E., they could do useful work, run indefinitely with no reoccurring fuel cost. They were never intended to demonstrate 1,00 brake HP--------Sam
DeleteBessler should have cut the price for his pm wheel invention down and sold it to a group of factory owners in Saxony. Once they had suitably powerful copies of them constructed and installed in their factories and being used, Karl could have placed a tax on the manufacturers using them and that money could have gone to Bessler.
DeleteIf he truly had something usable, then his tax revenue from them would, over the rest of his life, have paid him back far more than 100k thalers and he wouldn't have wound up at the age of 65 risking his life and losing it while trying to build a windmill for some rich guy who didn't like to pay his bills on time. More importantly, the design would be out there and others would have been trying to make improvements to it to make it even more powerful.
If those improvements had been made over three centuries, then possibly we would have no Climate Change now and would be using Bessler's wheels to power our world. Too bad that never happened and it's probably too late for it to happen now as the world turns to other forms of nonpolluting, renewable energy or "green energy" to deal with Climate Change.
Spring is here and the fear of Covid-19 deaths in the West is slowly decreasing as the weather warms and masks are coming off. People are eager to do some traveling, go swimming, purchase long postponed items, etc. Sounds idyllic until one wakes up and realizes something not so pleasant is also happening.
ReplyDeleteInflation in the West is at all time highs and predicted to get even worse since the cost of everything we buy or rent is indirectly and almost immediately affected by the price of a barrel of oil which is sensitive to any upsetting news about potential threats to the global supply of this fossil fuel commodity. Even more troubling is that, believe it or not, the world could actually now be closer to World War 3 than it's been since the US' "Cuba Missile Crisis" back in 1962!
Putin has vowed that he will "liberate" the Ukraine from all of the Nazis he's telling everyone in Russia through his state controlled media that are there committing genocide in the eastern regions of that land who might soon be doing the same to Russian citizens in "Mother Russia" if they aren't stopped! He's unconcerned about the number of defenseless Ukrainian civilians his troops kill in the process or their cities that he reduces to rubble. He desperately needs such a big "victory" to improve his status as a powerful leader who is "saving" the "Russian Empire" from the West. The West, however, observing the ever increasing number of real war crimes being uncovered in retaken Ukrainian cities has decided that it will provide the Ukrainian army with whatever amount of firepower they need to expel all of the Russian troops from their land no matter how many of them are killed in the process or how much of their military hardware is turned into scrap metal!
Will this all somehow end "peacefully"? Possibly and hopefully it will. But, if the "special military operation" by Russia drags on and their soldiers' death toll climbs into the hundreds of thousands and the West's sanctions on Russia continue to destroy its economy, Putin might start to consider all of this as an "act of war" by the West and decide to respond by launching a "preemptive" attack against Western military and civilian targets using ALL of his nation's nuclear ICBMs! Those western nations, of course, will be obliged to immediately retaliate by launching all of their ICBMs at targets in Russia.
If this should happen, then the resulting damage to our planet would be far worse than anything Climate Change could do to it. Basically, most of life on Earth and in its oceans would disappear. With luck, perhaps a few tens of thousands of humans worldwide would somehow survive and, if so, begin to slowly repopulate the planet over the course of thousands of years as it slowly returned to its pre-industrial condition. From that point on, it might take more thousands of years for humanity to return to its present level of science and technology.
Right now, not many are concerned about this possibility and would claim it is unlikely because even Putin couldn't be crazy enough to do something like that. But, maybe he could BECOME crazy enough to do something like that as time goes by and his frustration with being unable to conquer the Ukraine increases. Pay careful attention to the public statements that Putin makes in the future and see if they become more and more threatening in tone. Also watch for him to start delivering ultimatums to the West to "not get involved with or aid the Ukrainians militarily or else we will _____!" and then note how he reacts when his ultimatums are ignored. Corrupt dictators all have overinflated egos that do not like being ignored.
I wouldn't be the least surprised if, right now, he's making sure his own private, spacious, and luxurious underground nuclear weapon proof bunker is being well stocked with plenty of food and vodka!
Anonymous and PROUD of it!
Yeah no doubt he'll keep it well stocked with food, vodka, and young hookers for himself and his billionaire buddies.
DeleteWow, a frightening picture you paint AaPoi, and yet unquestionably plausible. I suppose there are certain people who are considering potential actions they might take to circumvent any escalation of the crisis, including ‘removal’ of the prime cause?
DeletePutin is suspected of being a billionaire, despite being paid $140,000 officially, and is rumored to be the owner of a beautiful 190,000 square-foot mansion sitting atop a cliff that overlooks the Black Sea. This coastal property is reputed as the largest private residence in the country and serves as his private palace endearingly called “Putin’s Country Cottage”.
I guess he will retire to this palace at some point, although these dictators never seem to want to let go the reins of power.
JC
Putin was originally brought to power by the incompetent drunkard Boris Yeltsin to try to help him get rid of about 22 "oligarchs" or rich industrialists that, after the collapse of the old Soviet Union, managed to steal about 40% of the nation's wealth and put it right into their secret bank accounts.
DeletePutin was originally just an ex-KGB colonel and a boring technocrat, but as he started to pursue those wealthy oligarchs and he got a taste of the enormous bribes they were offering him to look the other way, he got a new goal...to become the biggest and richest oligarch of them all! There are different estimates of his actual personal wealth and one puts it well north of about $200 billion US dollars! No wonder Trump admires him so much and secretly wishes he could become the American version of Putin!
May 9th or "Victory Day" is coming in Russia when they celebrate the old Soviet Union's capturing of the city of Berlin on that day in 1945. Putin needs to have a big victory by that day to win the approval of most of the Russian people who he wants to perceive him as a great leader. He's going to push for some big victory in the eastern part of the Ukraine and will probably try to capture most of it. As he does, tens of thousands of civilians will be killed.
A perfect storm indeed John.
ReplyDeleteThere is no doubt that the need is far greater now than it was 300 years ago. The damage Humanity is causing to Mother Earth is becoming ever clear, both from pollution and energy production.
Without a doubt, a major solution is to stop setting carbon on fire by establishing an energy system that enables everyone to live well without the need to burn carbon.
Therein lies the importance of resurrecting Bessler's wheel, even moreso after viewing https://youtu.be/wDOI-uLvTnY
Keep up the good work John! Kind Regards, Yuri
Thanks Yuri, and for posting the link to the video. I’m going to put a link to it at the bottom of this blog.
DeleteJC
Thanks for that link, Yuri. I found the video very interesting.
DeleteIt points out the big problem with all of the new green energy technologies that no one is talking about which is that when you analyze them in detail you realize that they still cannot compete economically with fossil fuels for producing energy and that's the real reason they only supply a small percentage of the world's energy. They are all just uneconomical efforts to finally "get serious" about stopping climate change that will be quickly abandoned as soon as something more efficient comes along.
In the US growing lots of corn to make ethanol, funded by huge taxpayer subsidies, was supposed to replace gasoline and help reduce carbon emissions. At first it sounded like a great idea and got a lot of support in the US Congress especially by states that grow a lot of corn. Then it was eventually realized that you have to burn more than a gallon of gasoline to grow enough corn to make one gallon of ethanol so your cost for that gallon of ethanol is actually higher than it is for a gallon of gasoline.
When you burn that gallon of ethanol in an internal combustion engine instead of a gallon of gasoline, you will release less carbon into the atmosphere, but then you find out that your miles per gallon using the ethanol is less than it is with a gallon of gasoline so you have to burn more of the ethanol to travel the same distance as burning one gallon of gasoline would take you. In the end, to travel the same distance as the gallon of gasoline takes you, the amount of ethanol you have to burn releases about the same amount of carbon into the atmosphere and it costs you more to travel that distance using the gallon of ethanol compared to using the gallon of gasoline!
Corn ethanol production is still being taxpayer subsidized in the US even though it is known to be a colossal waste of our tax dollars. This is probably true for all of the other forms of green energy as well with the possible exception of nuclear power. But, after that Fukushima, Japan disaster, most people don't want any more nuclear power plants built even though there are new designs that cannot melt down and release radioactive materials into the environment as well as into people's bodies.
I agree with an earlier poster here that what we need is fusion power. We have plenty of hydrogen to use as fuel, but we need some inexpensive way to trigger the fusion reactions so that the amount of energy needed to keep them running is only a small fraction of the energy they produce. That has not happened so far, but recently there has been some promising progress made in which the amount of energy coming out of the reaction almost exceeded the amount being used to trigger it.
The article linked below claims that the amount of energy coming out did exceed the amount going in, but, imo, the scientists carefully manipulated their data for an attention grabbing headline claiming that they actually did get more energy out than they had to put in. Not true, but at least it shows that there is serious continuing research to make fusion reactors a reality:
https://www.sciencealert.com/for-the-first-time-a-fusion-reaction-has-generated-more-energy-than-absorbed-by-the-fuel
jason
Thanks for that interesting comment, Jason. Thought provoking, frustrating and optimistic too.
DeleteJC
Its nuclear 'power' stations that are doing serious damage to thr environment and thst is ignored by the media controlled by the'elite',
ReplyDeleteThey are safe as long as none of their radioactive fuel or waste gets loose. They got new reactors now where the uranium is sealed into ceramic capsules and can't get loose. Also they are cooled by helium gas instead of water and if the cooling stops the capsules will get hot but not melt down. It costs big money to build these new safe plants but the power companies want to squeeze as much profit out of the older and less safe ones as possible before investing in the new ones. They are putting profits ahead of safety but that should not be too much of surprise to anybody.
DeleteYes,we are definitely going to need a 24/7 perpetual motion wheel.
ReplyDeleteI think it is close now!
Bonjour à tous;
ReplyDeletePour revenir sur les dessins de Bessler, le MT 13 ne fonctionne pas. Mais c'est le seul dessin qui comporte quelque chose d'essentiel...
J'ai commencé à fabriquer des prototypes depuis 2005. l'expérimentation, m'a beaucoup appris. Aujourd'hui, j'ai la certitude qu'une roue peut tourner indéfiniment.
Malheureusement, je dois déménager mon atelier mécanique avant le mois de septembre et le temps passe si vite!
Je vais revenir vers vous, je compte envoyer des infos et dessins à JC par mail.
Gibus wrote, in English:
Delete"Hello everyone; To return to Bessler's drawings, the MT 13 does not work. But it is the only drawing that has something essential... I started making prototypes in 2005. experimentation taught me a lot. Today, I am certain that a wheel can spin indefinitely. Unfortunately, I have to move my mechanical workshop before September and time flies so fast! I will come back to you, I intend to send information and drawings to JC by email."
@Gibus
MT 13 will not work as it is shown in MT. But, many here are convinced that MT 13 was the next to last design that Bessler constructed before he finally found the design that did work! That final design was a modification of MT 13 where the ascending side weights were raised by other weights that were falling at the same time.
One occasional poster here, who calls himself "Sayer of Sooths", claims that he's found more religious symbolism in MT 13 than any other drawing in MT. He believes that is because Bessler attributed his finally finding the solution to achieving perpetual motion to a miracle from God! Bessler putting all of that religious symbolism into MT 13 was his way of acknowledging God's help and also letting us know that the design in MT 13 was the one that God showed him how to make work. Apparently, that was somehow done through an usually vivid dream Bessler had one night. Unfortunately, we don't have the details of that dream. It would really be nice to know what it was.