Second clue.
A swing has its centre of gravity below the pivot, unlike a perfectly balanced wheel whose centre of gravity lies at its axle or pivot.
With a child standing on the swing's seat, the centre of gravity is lower and is closer the seat. If the child bends his legs he lowers the centre of gravity even more and if he straightens them he raises it again. If he rocks the swing a little he can make it move back and forth a greater distance by timing the straightening and bending of his legs
But the swing moves to and fro whereas we seek a solution in which the swing moves only in one direction, around and around the pivot. There is a sport known as ‘Kiiking’ in the native language of Estonia where it is practised as a national sport. In kiiking the ropes are rigid steel bars, enabling the swinger to build up his swings until he passes over the top of the pivot - his feet are of course attached to the seat.
Yes, I know, another elementary clue, and yet a vital ingredient in making Bessler's wheel work.
JC
A blog about Johann Bessler and the Orffyreus Code and my efforts to decipher it. I'll comment on things connected with it and anything I think might be of interest to anyone else.
The ‘Bessler’s Books’ button at the top of the right side panel, will take you to a page giving access to all Bessler’s books. Simply click ‘home’ to come back to my blog.
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Monday, 23 April 2012
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There are a number of images taken from Johann Bessler’s books which appear to support my previous post on Bessler’s Wheel Revealed. I shal...
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Finally I’m going to share what I know, and what I think I know, about the solution to Bessler’s wheel. This will be a bit shorter than my ...
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I’m 79 today and I’ve been studying the legend of Bessler’s wheel for about 65 years! Well, about 35 years of serious research. Not quite t...
That's actually a good idea; but I really wonder what kind of mechanism will be "the child" in your design.
ReplyDeleteI thought that the basic "kiiking" process had already been dismissed awhile ago as an UNworkable solution to constructing a WORKING OB PM gravity wheel for various reasons.
ReplyDeleteIn Bessler's wheels the weights only GAINED energy / mass from other weights as their lever pivots moved between the 9:00 and 12:00 positions of a CW rotating drum and they swung CW TOWARD their rim stops. The other weights would transfer most of their energy / mass to the ascending side weights (those moving between 9:00 and 12:00) as these other weights moved between 6:00 and 9:00 and they swung CCW AWAY from their rim stops and also as they moved between 12:00 and 3:00 and they swung CW TOWARD their rims. Between 3:00 and 6:00 the weights rested on their rim stops and they would not participate in any energy / mass transfers with other weights within the wheel. All of this, of course, was under the precise control of the network of interconnecting cords between all of the levers. For an 8 weighed lever one-direction wheel, there would have been a total of 48 cords necessary to make the Connectedness Principle work.
The advantage of using the energy / mass of weights to power an OB system is that, unlike a kiiking athlete, they never have to take a rest and eat! Of course, they will have to be replaced every few tens of millions of years if the wheel continuously outputs its tens of watts for that entire period of time. If the wheel is "unloaded" and just spins at its maximum terminal rotation rate, then the weights need only be replaced every few BILLIONS of years!
Dismissed by whom ?
Delete- Ealadha
(Yawn)
ReplyDelete43 days. I must be getting younger, time seems to be s l o w i n g d o w n .
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteSounds like you've fallen into a Bessler time warp! The really slow moving part will be AFTER 6/6/12 as we continue to wait for that lone wolf researcher to come forth with THE design Bessler used. It MIGHT be me, but that last 5% I have to go sometimes looks like trying to walk between Paris and Shanghei!
Sorry to bore you Doug, but I'm not going to put clues out which might lead someone using them, to achieve success before me, am I? So although they relate to what Bessler did, their applicability or pertinance will only become clear after the successful working model has been demonstrated.
ReplyDeleteYou may have dismissed 'kiiking' as a legitimate process towards an OB wheel, technoguy, but I haven't for reasons which will become clearer as time passes.
JC
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@ JC
ReplyDeleteIn a way, the "right track" approach I promote DOES bear some resemblance to kiiking. I mean, the ascending side weights do, initially, move in closer to the axle (just as the CoM of the athletes on a kiiking swing do when they stand erect on the ascending side of their swing as they pass the 6:00 position of their swing), and then, as their lever pivots pass the 9:00 position of a CW rotating drum, the weights begin to "climb" away from the axle again (which is analogous to a kiiking athlete beginning to squat as he approaches the zenith of his swing). However, the active weights in Bessler's wheels do not make final contact with their rim stops at the 12:00 position (which would be analogous to a kiiking athlete finally having fully squatted on the swing at that location, but in an inverted orientation, of course). That action by the weights, unfortunately, would be too costly in terms of the amount of energy / mass that the other active weights in the drum would have to supply in order to achieve it.
In Bessler's wheels, active weights only fully contact their rim stops at the drum's 3:00 position. Such a design will maintain the CoM of the 8 weights on the drum's descending side although it will be low and only rotated about 20 degrees CCW onto the drum's descending side. The kiiking athlete's goal is to try to keep the AVERAGE CoM location of his body as far away, horizontally, from the swing's pivot and onto the desending side his swing as possible. Since he is only one person, this requires precise timing of his body movements as he alternately stands and then squats on the swing. In Bessler's wheels, however, the precise timing of weighted lever motions was provided by the interconnecting cords of the Connectedness Principle.
Come to think of it, I vaguely recall seeing a circus performance years ago which used a sort of "double" kiiking swing contraption that was about 15 feet in length. It was used over a trapeze net and had TWO persons located diametrically opposite each other inside of a rotating open frame with its pivot between them.
Initially, their synchronized motions would cause the ends of the frame to merely rock up and down. But, then, all of a sudden, the frame completed a single ROTATION and soon after was moving at incredible speed. When this happened, each person would then always stand on one side of its pivot while the other always squatted on the other side of the pivot.
To stop, one person would stand and remain so while the other squatted and remained so. The frame would then slow to a stop and oscillate back and forth until it was in a vertical position. The person in the top end then exited and was followed by the other person in the lower end. They simple jumped out of the frame and landed on the net. Truly a remarkable stunt which your current blog about kiiking recalled to my memory.
You can be assured, John, that I do NOT find ANY of this boring. I look EAGERLY forward to whatever nuts you will be sharing with us hungry squirrels be they tasty or rancid! LOL!
My wheel will be called John Collin's wheel . And for breakfast I am having Bessler ham and eggs ... over medium because I know that's how he ate his eggs . ROFLMFAO
ReplyDeleteIt is possible to get a swing going perpetually .
ReplyDelete- Ealadha
Wow! stork's bills? It really fits the clue; but you still need energy to stretch it up and down...hmmm...
ReplyDeleteIf you do a search on yahoo for Bessler's wheel you will get 67000 + results and yet no wheel turns on it's own thus far . Let's burden ourselves with the prerequisite of building something that actually shows a tendency to move before calling it Bessler's wheel or " what Bessler did ." This is what I was alluding to in my above comment .
ReplyDeleteJohn-
ReplyDeleteNot bored, just impatient.
I knew the "clues" were going to be things you've already posted, and if there is something that makes your version of a bessler wheel work that you haven't revealed yet, you're saving it for last, naturally, I get it.
The kiiking concept, albeit a good one, only makes sense if the weights - once in motion - are receiving a boost from something else; they obviously can't pump their own swinging.
From studying the internal mechanics of Bessler's wheels, one will quickly realize that the secret of their operation is that EACH weight, when the drum is in rotation, will AUTOMATICALLY follow a path whose center is fixed on the descending side of the drum and which is the product of the collection of interconnections that it has to the other weights' levers that that serve to "coordinate" its swinging as it travels around the drum's axle. In other words, Bessler, via his revolutionary "Connectedness Principle", found a way to place 8 cord INTERCONNECTED weighted levers into a drum (POSSIBLY as few as 3 or 6 for his earlier one-direction wheels!) so that they would ALWAYS tend to achieve a state of static equilibrium that placed their CoM onto the drum's descending side and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, would keep it there DESPITE drum rotation. The only thing that interfers with this equilibrium is the increase in CF acting on the weights as drum rotation rate increases.
ReplyDeleteThe biggest effect of CF is seen for weights whose lever pivots move between the 6:00 and 9:00 positions of a CW rotating drum. The CF acting on those weights requires that their lever pivots get closer to the drum's 9:00 position before these weights will begin swinging CCW and getting closer to the axle. That delay then causes the CoM of ALL 8 weights to rotate CW a bit closer to the dreaded punctum quietus location directly under the axle where it can produce no torque on the drum.
So, as a FREELY turning drum's rotation increases, the CoM of its 8 active weights will slowly move toward the punctum quietus and the torque acting on the axle will decrease. At some point the torque will be so low that it will EXACTLY equal the aerodynamic and bearing drag acting on the drum and it will then stop accelerating and achieve its maximum terminal rotation rate. This, as we all know, can be in the tens of rotations per minute. One advantage of this effect is that, should a one-directional wheel accidentally become unleashed when the inventor is not present, he need not worry about it acclerating to such a high rate of rotation that it then self-destructs from its own CF or, breaking free of its axle supports, damages the surrounding building structures.
If a load is applied to the axle of a drum turning CW at its maximum terminal rate, however, then the counter torque of that action will suddenly decrease the drum's rotation rate and the CF acting on its weights moving between its 6:00 and 9:00 positions. This will cause these weights to swing CCW and in toward the axle a bit earlier and result in the CoM of the 8 weights then swinging CCW away from the punctum quietus and out farther onto the descending side of the drum. That will then increase the driving torque acting on the drum and axle until it again equals the sum of the counter torques being applied to them from air and bearing drag PLUS the load newly applied to the axle. The drum will then be turning at a lower rotation rate WHILE continuously moving whatever load was applied to its axle.
What happens if the sum of the counter torques acting on the axle and drum exceeds what the torque of the drum would be if it was unloaded and STATIONARY (where it has its maximum torque)? Simple, the axle and drum will stop moving until the load is either removed or reduced.
The mode of operation of Bessler's wheels is, indeed, VERY easy to understand. Finding the correct "magic" lever design, interconnecting cord scheme, AND spring tensioning system to achieve this, however, requires MANY hundreds of HOURS of work. Certainly NOT a task for those with low "frustration thresholds"!
If you are so sure, why don't you build?
Delete"From studying the internal mechanics of Bessler's wheels"
ReplyDeleteUh, right.
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, lacking the shattered remains of one of Bessler's wheels laying on a table before me, I must confine my "study" to the PROPER interpretations of the MANY clues he left about the internal mechanics of his wheels. As one's understanding of the TRUE meaning of those clues comes into focus, so, too, will his knowledge of the mechanics used in the wheels. The image of his wheel's INTERNAL mechanics that I now possess is about 95% complete. When it is finally 100% complete then I will KNOW all that I need in order to duplicate them or tell someone else how to do so.
The few tasty nuts of information that I have dispensed on this blog are already sufficient to get the serious Bessler mobilist onto the "right track" and about 25% of the way along it to the destination we seek. That is FAR more than he will ever get anywhere else. For the rest of the journey down that track, however, the mobilist will have to do MUCH work.
As all hungry squirrels eventually learn, the bigger and tastier the nut, the more out of reach and difficult to obtain it tends to be. Occasionally, however, a hungry squirrel can get VERY lucky and have such a nut fall right down in front him ready to be consumed. I know...it happened to me!
When people asked JB questions about the wheel they were given an answer . The only person who has really entered into a communication about it since then has been Hal Puthoff 42 years ago .
ReplyDelete- Ealadha
What?
DeleteYears ago Hal Puthoff was talking to JB .
DeleteA little bird landed on the windowsill and told me that just the other day .
TG
ReplyDeleteFor what my opinion is worth, your image of the internal mechanics is 0% (complete) unless you have an OU wheel. That's depressing after decades of research, I know. But your design isn't any more indicative of what bessler did than any other design out there in internet land. And frankly, it's a bit hubristic of you, or Chris - who doesn't reveal anything to back up his claim -to continue saying so.
Your wheel, or John's or Chris' for that matter, might turn itself briefly, but so does a wheel with a single weight, given a push.
The clues he left are all variations of designs that don't work. Contrary to what he said, a certain combination of the variations won't produce a movement, because: 1.) None of the variations show a source of energy other than gravitational potential energy, which won't turn any combination of any of the designs; some of them show parts that hint at external sources of energy; 2.) the more "internal mechanics" you put inside, the more mechanical losses you have to overcome, making the machine less and less efficient and; 3.) even worse, more issues with latency. Your design is especially lacking in the efficiency and latency departments from a purely mechanical standpoint, not even considering that gravity is supposed to get all those cords and springs moving by some sort of imaginary leverage.
Have a nice day!
Doug ,
ReplyDeleteYou might as well say it's impossible . That's what you are implying . You are also implying that you can rule out the possibility with logic or reason ( nothing new for sure ) . You are also implying that since I don't show anything I don't have anything . I don't claim to have a working design and to "know it all" . I claim to have information regarding Bessler's wheel that is either scarcely known or not at all . Unless you were to see this information for yourself you cannot judge it . Just accept what I am saying here as fact and then you will understand me anyway ... I can't speak for anyone else .
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteI certainly wish my design for Bessler's wheels was 100% complete rather than its present 95%. However, considering that I spent decades at 0%, I'm BLISSFULLY happy to have finally achieved what I have. It keeps me motivated as I move toward obtaining that missing 5%. Please bear in remind that I have, so far, only divulged about 25% of what I have REdiscovered on this blog which is just enough to get the SERIOUS and ACTIVE Bessler mobilists out there in PMland onto the "right track". However, since I presently have 95%, that means that I have not yet released about 70% of what I have. Yes, I could do that now in order to TRULY AMAZE the readers of this blog, but I'd rather wait until I have the 100% before revealing all. No, I don't think I'll have that 100% in time for 6/6/12. But, as with all things, the truth will eventually come out.
Here's my response to some of the issues you raised in your last comment:
"The clues he left are all variations of designs that don't work."
Agreed
"Contrary to what he said, a certain combination of the variations won't produce a movement"
Well, Bessler only says that by combining PARTS of the various MT designs, one will be able to BEGIN to look for a PM. YOU say that gravity alone is not enough to make an OB PM gravity wheel run. Bessler REPEATEDLY stated that that was exactly how he did it. Now am I supposed to trust YOUR opinion or that of a person who ACTUALLY did BUILD such a device? No offense, but I'm putting my faith in Bessler!
"the more "internal mechanics" you put inside, the more mechanical losses you have to overcome, making the machine less and less efficient"
The only significant sources of mechanical losses in Bessler's wheels were air and bearing drag. His use of a cylindrical drum with a polished outer rim would have eliminated most of the external aerodynamic drag acting on the wheel and, as the air inside of the drum was stirred up to the same velocities as those of its various moving internal mechanisms and structures, that source of aerodynamic drag would also have been minimal. Each TWO-directional wheel would have contained a maximum of 18 pivots. There were the two large ones that supported the axle and its attached drum and the 16 smaller ones inside of the drum for its 16 weighted levers. Sufficient lubrication would have minimized the amount of energy / mass they would convert to heat as the wheel operated. Also remember that, when turning in either direction, half or 8 of the weighted levers within a two-directional wheel were immobilized and their pivots would therefore be producing no heat.
I consider Bessler's use of interconnecting cords between the weighted levers to actually be one of the most efficient mechanical designs ever conceived! It is quiet and contains no bearings or gears and, thus, wastes no energy / mass by converting it into sound and heat. (There are a variety of ways to connect the ends of the cords to the levers some of which would function like pivots. But, with sufficient lubrication, they would produce almost no energy / mass wasting friction during wheel operation. BTW, there are definite clues about how the cords were actually attached to the levers, but that info is in the 70% I haven't revealed yet.)
"...even considering that gravity is supposed to get all those cords and springs moving by some sort of imaginary leverage."
The leverage Bessler used was real and very simple. All levers were "1st class" levers and all springs are helical.
"Have a nice day!
Thank you. As a matter of fact I AM having an unusually nice day. I made a MAJOR rediscovery with regards to Bessler's "Secret Principle" this morning that had eluded me for several years. Come to think of it, I might now even have to increase my estimate of how much of the solution I have from 95% to maybe 98%!!!
Chris -
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying what bessler appeared to do is impossible. I'm saying it's not possible the way he implied he did it.
It's more than logic and reason, it's easily demonstrated empirical evidence.
The secret isn't a special mechanism like most think. If you have information no one else has, what good does it do you?
Are you waiting for June 6 too?
Tg-
Ccngratulations on your major rediscovery bringing your image percentage to... Oh yes, 0 %.
Correction Doug,..The secret IS a special mechanism that makes it possible.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what Chris has,but I know what I have and I'm not even sure that it is the same as what Bessler had.
@ Doug
ReplyDeleteIn light of my recent rediscovery, I must consider my knowledge of Bessler's internal wheel mechanics to now be about 98% complete. Of course, having a WORKING simulation of the 100% compete design neatly burned onto a CD and available for my personal viewing at any time or for sharing with others would, indeed, make me VERY happy. I get a little closer to that 100% goal with each passing day...only 2% left to go! No, I probably won't be there by 6/6/12. Maybe by the end of this year, hopefully.
As I mentioned in my last comment, my recent rediscovery has to do with the third of Bessler's "principles": what I call his "Secret Principle".
To refresh everyone's memory, here are the three principles that MUST be obeyed if one wants to construct a WORKING OB PM gravity wheel like Bessler did:
1.) The "Preponderance Principle" which states that the CoM of a one-directional wheel's weights must remain on the wheel's descending side when the wheel is in motion. The CoM will also remain on the formerly descending side when the wheel is stopped. Sadly, many mobilists give up on accepting the simple truth of this principle because of their past failed efforts to use it to achieve PM.
2.) The "Connectedness Principle" which states that ALL of the weighted levers within one's wheel must be interconnected by a system of cords which serves to coordinate each of the weighted levers and assures that they are in their correct orientations (relative to their radial supports) as they reach each of the 12 "clock dial" positions of their rotating carrier drum. In the process of coordinating the weighted levers, the cords will transfer energy / mass from sinking weights to those rising back toward their rim stops on the drum's ascending side.
3.) The "Secret Principle" which deals with the use of spring tension inside of a wheel. Springs are used to temporarily store energy / mass from weights that are momentarily losing it in excess so that it can be later fed back to those same weights to assist them in rising back toward their rim stops. This then lowers the amount of energy / mass that these weights must extract from the other sinking weights in the wheel. It is the Secret Principle with allows the ascending side weights to "rise in a flash" as their lever's pivots pass a CW rotating drum's 9:00 position. Without this sudden rise of the ascending side weighted levers during each 45 degree increment of drum rotation (that increment is for a wheel with 8 weighted levers), the CoM of the weights would NOT remain on the drum's descending side. This would then cause the CoM of all of the weights to rotate toward and remain at the punctum quietus and the Preponderance Principle would then be violated.
All of these three principles are critical and they work in harmony to achieve PM, but I am of the belief that the THIRD principle, the "Secret Principle" is really the most important of the three. It is the one that allowed Bessler to turn what would have been just another "non-runner" into a "runner". This is why I STRONGLY suggest that the active Bessler mobilists out there make it a ROUTINE practice of incorporating springs into their designs. Without it PM can NOT be achieved!
The information fits Bessler's description ( off hat if you will ): " certain disposed weights once given an external motive force arranged so that they will never lose that motion but retain it without interruption ." Ralph Lortie has three different animations describing the movement roughly . I didn't understand the specifics when I sent the animations but I am working on it . To react to what Trevor said the information I have came from Bessler . Also , not waiting for the 6th of June ... simply broke and unable to build anything . I want to get he concept 100 % before the build anyway .
ReplyDeleteLet me count, now we have... JC, techno, Chris and Trevor...4 wheels!!! Please look at your design again. Obviously, some of you are miscalculating.
ReplyDelete