I thought it was time to talk about clues again, so today I'm looking at the 'Toys' page in Bessler's so-called Maschinen Tractate (MT).
The Toys page was the last page in my version of the book MT which, by the way, was found as a pile of unbound drawings lying in a box. I believe that subsequently the pages have been re-photographed in a slightly different order resulting in the Toys page not being the last one. In any case it is the last numbered page, having 138, 139, 140 and 141 handwritten in the bottom left corner. I have always imagined that it was inserted by Bessler to replace four pages he removed at the time of his arrest when he wrote on the cover;-
“N.B. 1st May, 1733. Due to the arrest, I burned and buried all papers that prove the possibility. However, I have left all demonstrations and experiments since it would be difficult for anybody to see or learn anything about a perpetual motion from them or to decide whether there was any truth in them because no illustration by itself contains a description of the motion; however, taking various illustrations together and combining them with a discerning mind, it will indeed be possible to look for a movement and, finally to find one in them.”
This action must have been carried out with the intention of providing some kind of clue in case MT was never published for some reason. If publication had been achieved then the original pages would have been reinserted.
Did he suspect that he might be imprisoned? Possibly, and then his records would be available to the anyone of rank, so he replaced them with something less revealing. My research has shown that he was being subjected to considerable pressure from his in-laws and feared that there was a conspiracy to either force him to reveal his secret or to frame him for some illegal dealings.
I have inserted a clarified version of the Toys page which has the four page numbers omitted on the bottom and also the short piece of text which was written next the the spinning top which reads, “5. Children's game in which there is something
extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply the game in a different
way.”
The letters run from A through to E, five letters! But there are six drawings including the top, so why does he write 5 in front of the text? Note my red lines which align the separate parts of each drawing, there are five! Could he be telling us - yet again! that there are five mechanisms?
I think the letters are written in anticlockwise order to show which drawing should be interpreted first. Note that A aligns with B but note that the latter is twisted - the small blobs on the left end of each horizontal on A are shown alternately on the left and right of the vertical line labelled B
The pantograph shape of C and D is similar to that part of A. As B is twisted perhaps C and D should likewise be twisted?
Thereare two Cs and two Ds which suggests that there are two items from the each drawing required for the mechanism. A hammer/axe or weight might be one, and the pantograph shape another.
The later addition of the spinning top was probably an attempt to hint that the 'toys' shown, relate to something that spins?
That's enough for today, I think, but I will just say that despite appearances in y opinion the item A has no connection with the Jacob's ladder toy.
JC
10a2c5d26e15f6g7h10ik12l3m6n14o14r5s17tu6v5w4y4-3,’.
John, just a silly observation, the guys at the top have arms, and the bottom guys don't.Could that mean that when the scissor mechanism extends one way,the weights lean in one direction, and when the mechanism retracts, the weights lean the other, just as the guys lean in opposite directions ?
ReplyDeleteI take it that the lines of links A & B are front and side view of the same thing.If you are right about there being five mechanisms,then each section of line A looks like the flip jack toy I e-mailed you about.
One mechanism may be for one directional rotation, and the other for two directional.
Stephen Burke
There is much more to the drawing than I have comented on Steve. The lower guys have twisted bodies which suggests that the weights are the other way round.
ReplyDeleteNo the lines of links on A & B are not front and side view of the same thing. B is twisted at one end so that the top of each link is twisted half a turn relative to the botton of the same link. Think of the chain of links in A as five separate links - then B is the same but with top and bottom of each linl twisted half a turn.
JC
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI always was wondering about the (what looks to me) eye on the spinning to. Is that "the discerning eye"? It placed separately in the page, too. Is Bessler saying here (as he so often does elsewhere with his NB's and X's and odd "A"'s) note this well! (NB=Nota Bene!) This is a important part or principle.
ReplyDeleteSomehow, that spinning top is important. And we all know what a rapidly spinning top does (and, among others, what effects can be observed: shades, again, of prof. Laithwaite?)
"spinning to" should be, obviously, spinning top. Apologies.
ReplyDeleteThere is a spinning top, Andre, which I have seen which has a hole in it through which some string passes. You turn the top bit and hold the area around the 'eye' hole and wind the string around the centre column. The you pull the string hard, still holding the piece near the 'eye' and let go, it spin on the smll bottom of the centre column.
DeleteJC
Some thoughts of Besslers markers:
ReplyDeleteNB=Nota Bene! (Note this well!)
X=Look at this section!
A=Achtung! (Attention!)
Just my 2 cents.
why two hammer men toys? when one would suffice? There must be significance in there being two. Maybe: toy 1= decending side of wheel, arms out, unsprung. Toy 2= ascending side of wheel, arms in, sprung. (assuming twisted bodies are spring 'pointers'.
ReplyDeleteregards
Jon
Don't you think two hammers are there to provide symetrical and differential balance for the wheel?
ReplyDeleteFor myself, I am certain that Bessler only provided some small clues with these 'Toy' drawings. He never intended that we should take all the pictures literally, that is why, although there are two hammer men toys, there are also two alphabet letters assigned to each one. He is suggesting that you need two parts from each drawing, as I said above, one hammer and one pantograph. The two pantographs are then connected but one has its hammerman and his hammer pointing outwards - but also the pantograph linkage is twisted or crossed in between the two hammer men. Simples!
ReplyDeleteJC
JC
The bodies of those twisted men are supposed to represent springs. Besslers way of telling us springs were necesary for the functioning of his wheels.
DeleteThe best analysis I've ever seen of the toys page was given by tg (technoguy) in a 6-2-12 comment he made. Heres the link to it.
http://johncollinsnews.blogspot.com/2012/06/divide-toys-page-into-five-parts.html#comment-form
mike
The jacobs ladders are a illustration that the centrifugal energy that is generated, must be captured. Then released at the appropriate time. There is plenty of energy generated by the spinning wheel through centrifugal force. While gravity acts on the components because of their position, the centrifugal force is constant. Now that I have built an 8 ft wheel it is much more obvious to me that the diameter is critical to getting that centrifugal energy which is acting on all components every second the wheel is spinning. The larger the diameter of the wheel, the greater the centrifugal force generated, that is why the wheels that actually did work keep getting larger in diameter. TIMING IS EVERYTHING already beginning to fabricate components for the 12 ft wheel .............. today
ReplyDeleteAnother thing: the larger the diameter of the wheel, the further a mass can (free)fall within it, and the longer the time it takes to complete that fall. Obvious, of course, but there may be some not-so-obvious consequences.
DeleteA 12 ft wheel is pretty big. I think Aldo Costa's wheel, see http://nseo.com/aldocosta/page2.htm currently holds the record at 56 ft.
I agree with Jon.
ReplyDeleteI think the two hammer men represent weighted levers, one on each end of a crossbar. On the descending side, the weight is extended out (shown lifted in the picture). On the ascending side, the weight is pulled in (shown resting on the anvil in the picture). The pantograph represents the mechanism that ties the two levers together so the two levers move in unison. I also believe that the twisted figures imply that the levers don't move in the same plane as the wheel, but rather they move perpendicular across the rim of the wheel, alternating back and forth to maintain balance. Forcing the weights to move like this keeps the CoM from raising or lowering as the weights shift in and out. The CoM only moves inward and outward along a horizontal line that passes thru the axle of the wheel (on the descending side of the wheel). You either have balance or overbalance, but never keeling.
zoelra
I believe the top also indicates that the figures above are meant to rotate around their center. If you draw a vertical line up from the center of top, you will notice that the anvil is to the right of the line when right man is raising the hammer, and the left of the line (by the SAME distance) when the left man is raising the hammer. This indicates symmetry around the center of the pantograph mechanism.
Deletezoelra
Ok maybe not the SAME distance, but close. The drawing appears to slant to the left slightly so that throws off the alignment as well.
Deletezoelra
First, sorry for so many posts ...
DeleteI was thinking, what does the design I mentioned in my previous posts tell us. Well it could imply that the design consisted of crossbars, and that the two weights on the crossbar worked together, when one moved in, the other moved out, and vice versa. The pantograph mechanism could represent the connectedness principle. The designs in MT, such as MT9, don't really convey a crossbar idea even though their lever connection points do line up across the wheel from one another. Of course nothing of the prime mover is still shown in the figures.
zoelra
Yikes, I really misspoke. Strike the last sentence of the 19:55 post. The CoM does move up and down on the descending side, but never crosses the horizontal line thru the axle. zoelra
DeleteOk, I'm a real bone head.
DeleteYet another correction ... What I should have said is "The CoM does move up and down on the descending side, but never crosses the VERTICAL line thru the axle."
Sorry guys, I only get short periods (at work) where I can type so I have to think and type quick. When I have time, I try to type my comments in Word and cut and paste when ready, so I don't make these mistakes, or have to enter multiple posts. My apologies to you all. zoelra
John, just another silly thought, when I was an apprentice helping to install fluorescent fittings, hanging from jack chains, the electrician couldn't get one to hang level, even half a link one way or the other was too much, so what did he do? He gave it a twist, shortening the chain by just the right amount. Maybe why A&B are twisted, the men also.
ReplyDeletePentographs, centrifugal force, spinning, weights moving, puts me in mind of the centrifugal speed regulator on a steam engine.If it were to be moved to the vertical, instead of horizontal, so as to fit in a wheel,and said wheel was spinning at the right speed, when the weights were at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock position they would fly out, but if the weight at 12 o'clock was too heavy it would retract .Like I said, just another silly idea !
Stephen Burke
That's not silly Steve, I've considered aspects ofthe steam speed governor as a possible path onwards.
ReplyDeleteJC
John, I know as an author you probably detest the scribd websites, but if you checkout the paper wrestler, and magic lantern chapters in the book at,
Deletewww.scribd.com/doc30016429/Toy-Box, you may find their histories interesting.
As a thought it came to me that if instead of fencing knights, the figures were boxers, they could be used to put on a magic lantern show. Swift footed shadow boxers ? Anyway the paper wrestlers include spinning, pentographs, and children's toys.The other tumbling acrobats are interesting, but I think they were invented too late.
Also I've been doodling in an old sketchbook, and I think you are right about the 5 mechanisms. Now I've finished my tax returns, I might have time to heed your advice and make a few models.
Stephen Burke
John,..The Apologia wheel is the identical configuration of a centrifugal governor.
ReplyDeleteHey, John, it's good to see more of your interpretation of the clues.
ReplyDeleteHere's another interpretation:
Letters A to E;
Figure A infers a repeating cycle and shows a 'leverage' weight raised into position, up and over-the-top at B, down through the C's performing work [PE -> KE], through the D's transferring it to the wheel and axle [wrapping, case], then lifted at E and zoomed back up to begin again.
The note, the 5, and the Top;
The note says "games", not "toys". Toys are what you play with, games are how you play with them. As in discerning eye vs. discerning mind.
The "five" may not be a 5. It might be an uppercase H [Alte Schwabacher font] that is slightly rotated. H being the 8th letter, might refer to the sounds made by a rotating wheel?
The spinning top might be there just to say, "Do this, and it will go around and around." It's 'association' with the note may be misleading.
Regarding your red lines... this is from my 'toys page collection-of-speculations' text file on my other PC;
Consider the left-side dots on figure B that are associated horizontally with the dots on figure A. If lines drawn through each set of dots are extended to figure E, they divide the 'extension' portion of figure E into three 2-diamond sections and two 1-diamond sections [disregarding the handles and the peculiar triangular tong pieces].
All five intersection points are at centerline pivots [more or less].
The second and third lines from the top, and the bottom two lines, frame the character's bodies, arms, tools, and targets [i.e., their work].
Of course, all this could just be my apophenia talking. ;-)
I find it curious that the page was labeled from the outer edge in toward the binding, maybe the convention back then?
JC wrote: "I am certain that Bessler only provided some small clues with these 'Toy' drawings."
I agree.
- Mark
The problem with 'certain' is that only Bessler and the person who finally makes something out of all of this will be certain for reals. ;-)
ReplyDelete-Ed
maybbe that's why tg was so confident about the info he shared with us. 8^D
DeleteI am certain ( ;) ) that there is more to the toy page than small clues. For starters Bessler states that he insures the reader that there is something special about the scissor jacks and where do we find them..... on the toy page. Yet most builds or designs exclude them. Justsomeone' s Humble opinion
ReplyDeleteAlong with the "...something special..." statement in MT41, he also says this:
Delete"...the present HORIZONTAL application of the stork's bills is always better than the machine with the VERTICAL application, which constantly has more friction".
Designs with storks bills are MT38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 47, 54, 83, 84, and 138.
DeleteJSO, I meant that the clues are deliberately vague and the drawings should not be taken at face value; they hint rather than tell the whole story. Probably my words 'small clues' was misleading, I meant vague clues.
DeleteJC
Hi everybody !
Deletei have just a question : can you tell me if this picture is made in the same years of Bessler life or if it s just an "after" illustration ?
http://orffyre.tripod.com/id21.html
It's just to see if the pantograph is also important in the clue ...
Thank for the answer ...
Sorry but that picture has nothing to do with Bessler. I've no idea why it is there other than it shows a lazy-tong. At a preliminary glance the clothes don't look right either.
ReplyDeleteJC
Johnny and Anonny, I've seen pictures by what appears to be the same illustrator on other websites, sorry I can't remember which ones, but another picture shows the young Bessler playing with his experimental toy wheel. They appear to be from an early Victorian book about Bessler.Just remembered, another picture shows the wheel being demonstrated on the back of a wagon in a market square.
DeleteTalking of books, I take it that Sir George Biddle Airy's," On Certain Conditions Under Which Perpetual Motion Is Possible", is known by all ?
Stephen Burke
Thank JC and Stephen to reply !
ReplyDeleteFor Stephen , i think you mean this :
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=10194&sid=02c26563105b8142991c2a8ca1707bfd
Have a good day ...
Anonny, just been checking websites again, the pictures are on Dr. Ramesh Menaria's website on Tripod. Go through the whole menu and you will find a few others as well, plus comments on John Collins.
DeleteRegards Stephen
Thanks for removing the junk mail John.Sorry to harp on this but I think your going to be persuaded to go back to some sort of exclusive entry system,these spammers really are a niusance.
ReplyDeleteRamesh has two things on his site about Bessler...information he got from John, and absolute rubbish from Ramananda, who got stuff from dreams and thinks he is a mystic and who created made up images, among other things.
ReplyDeleteThe trouble is, some people can't separate the two, and that is why it's best to just avoid Ramesh's site altogether.
There are no known other images of Bessler, except the one portrait found in some DTs.
-Ed
Thank for these precision Stephen and Ed ... i didn't know for the origin of these picture . I will back again ( i hope ) with good news .
DeleteKeep your mind open ... solution is near , i feel it !
Regards Beps . . .
Ed, just to say I agree about the content of Rameshes' site, I only went to it a second time to find out where I stumbled on the drawings so I could let Anonny know where they were. I did however check the whole site, and the rest of the drawings there prove 100% what you say, quality always shows through, so I'll stick with J.C.
DeleteRegards Stephen Burke
OOPS! just seen anonny signed off Beps, sorry.
DeleteStephen Burke
Justsomeone says: I wholeheartedly believe some of the MT drawings were drawn for the sole purpose of hiding parts of his working wheel.
ReplyDeleteYep. I couldn't agree more.
DeleteExcept that there was more than one wheel. :)
And that I would include 'concepts' amongst the 'parts'.
- Mark
wind mills, tops, and hindu mystics. amazing the nonsense that has come in to fill the vaccuum left by tgs departure! soon someone will be using tarot cards, tea leaves and weegee boards to explain how besslers wheels worked. rotflmao!
ReplyDeleteif anyones just coming here first time who really wants to learn the truth of besslers wheels he should do the following. buy collins 'apologia poetica' (we call it AP) and read it. you will have many many ?s in your mind afterwards. next read all of technoguys (we call him TG) posts here. he started on august 30, 2011 in 'j.e.e.bessler > w.rr.orfffyres' and left on january 8, 2013 in 'johann besslers clues - real or imaginary' and gave important info in every blog. copy and paste anything he said about the mechnanics of besslers wheels into a folder for future use. then go back and read AP again. you will be amazed at how much more sense it then makes. afterward you can go on to read besslers next book 'das triumphant' (we call it DT) and that to wil make more sense. follow all of tgs suggestions if you unlike most here are actually building wheels and want to find out how bessler did it.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteGood advice, Anon, and just what I did. Technoguy's contribution here was truly awesome and should be required reading by all serious students of Bessler. Expecting Collins' pm buddies from other sites (the same ones that brainwashed him into getting rid of TG) to fill in for TG is like expecting the Three Stooges to fill in for Einstein!
DeleteAnonytgmous, you obviously didn't see the show where we invented a flying submarine, and scared off the alien invaders.
DeleteBest regards, Curly, larry and Mo
They didnt invent it but worked for the inventor who did. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!
DeleteAnonytgmous, you forgot to remind us about the tank part, and the nuclear warhead.
DeleteRegards again Curly, Larry and Mo.
Before God we are all equally wise, and equally foolish.
DeleteAlbert Einstein
Mr. Collins,
ReplyDeletePlease excuse me if you've answered this before, but I am curious about it.
I know that the papers that we know as MT were found among Bessler's possessions after his death, but do we know when they were created?
Do we know if they were all created at the same time?
- Mark
Bessler's note on the front of the papers was dated 1st May 1733, so presumably they were created prior to that date. Other than that, any other suggestions would be purely guesswork, but I think it was possibly completed after he left Kassel. Sorry I can't be morer specific.
DeleteJC
Thank you for responding, John. I just wanted to make sure that I hadn't missed that info somewhere along the way (BW Forum research), and that it wasn't amongst any 'un-released' material. I'm still trying to get my head around which clues originated when, in relation to each of the wheels. I have a digital copy of MT, but not your other books; I'm kind of waiting for the revised versions to be published. Problem is, I don't know which one(s) you're working on. :-)
Delete- Mark
For those who's lives are so shallow they need constant nonsense to fill it up, why don't you petition TG (Ken) to start his own blog? Then you can go troll there, while he looks for "Bessler's secret mechanism that he found and used".
ReplyDeletewhy have them go to another blog when they can stay right here are read worthless comments like yours?
DeleteJohn, I am a little confused here.
ReplyDeleteYour drawing above for MT 138-139-140-141 appears very different from the one in your published and currently available MT.
I believe this is a view of it?:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Mt_138-141.gif
So, of the two WHICH is the actual original??? (They both display greatly differing features.)
Also, as for the subject of the earthy visage of our poor old brother Bessler, does this undoubtable masterpiece of inspired reproductive imagination and talent, not count for something as well?:
http://www.orffyre.com/PrintShop.html
The artist that created it was Bill McMurtry. He deserves to be supported by us Bessler admirers, by our purchases of copies. The presence of one as placed near our work benches would no doubt serve as MASSIVE inspiration for eventual success, I do believe.
(Well, it's so far-so good on the @TechnoXXX's continuing absence! Let us hope and pray that this lovely 'quo' remains the status?)
Cheers!
James
a smelly troll is a smelly troll is a...you! cheers!
DeleteThat copy of the 'Toys' page is by the very same Bill McMurtry, you mentioned, as part of
ReplyDeletehis ongoing task of refining and reproducing good copies of all the drawings in MT. Note his
URL in the botton right corner. I too have a copy of his excellent colour representation of
Bessler.
The version I showed above is from the original but cleaned up. I'm currently writing
another page for my website at www.theorffyreuscode.com/ which will give more detail about the Toys page and also show
a copy of the original. You can see what the original looks like in my copy of MT available
from www.theorffyreuscode.com/
for a measly £5 or less tham $8!
JC
Thanks very much for that information, John.
ReplyDeleteI think I now understand - the original was actually rather coarse of appearance as compared to Oryyus' redraw?
As Bessler stated upon it, there does seem very much to it than just meets the curious, cursory eye. (Or, is it but my too perfervid imagining now gone hare-wild, that so deceives ???)
You are right, it IS "measly" at that very low bargain price. So far, it is the only one of your excellent items that I do not yet have. This egregious and shocking lack, shall soon be corrected.
(But . . . will it be enough-so?)
Apropos the McMurtry portrait-work subject, John: Do you not feel streams of inspiration showering down upon you while in the presence of yours? For my own miniature part at least, I can readily imagine that I would, if I had mine already. I think that a version of even greater size than 'life itself' would be warranted, if given finally an actual, present wheel aspinning . . .
Would you not agree?
"Of THE THREE that went before, came then MILLIONS upon MILLIONS more!" (An imagined, likely quote of Bessler's.)
Cheers!
James
Yes James, I have my McMurtry Bessler portrait in my workshop - the big one - and I look at it every time i'm in there. It and the drawings are indeed inspirational for me.
ReplyDeleteJC
They didnt invent it but worked for the inventor who did. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!
ReplyDeleteI am glad to hear you have the largest portrait size, John. It is only fitting as I'm sure all would agree.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Bill McMurtry would 'do' also, the actual re-discoverer of the whole Orffyrean Creature?
My guess is he would be up for it and also, possibly, the various commemorative medals and medallions that would necessarily have to be generated, for the various grand, celebratory events and honorings, etc.
And as well also, for that richly merited dishonoring by means of an imagined, Great Blackened Lead Medallion, the thing featuring the wicked likenesses of Borlach and Wagner and Gartner, all pilloried into Eternal Infamy, as those pestering hornets swarmed out of Hell, to make Bessler's meager life a partial misery throughout.
Regarding the Toys Page, I see that he placed it right under Bessler's left hand in his work. How very appropriate seeming. (Well, to myself at least.)
And also (and irritatingly), I see that our way too wordy, petulant fool - @TechnoXXX - is with us still! He is now posting childish troll-jabs anonymously.
For instance:
Anonymous of 20 January 2013 at 18:18 in his usual childish way, ranted-out thusly
"a smelly troll is a smelly troll is a...you! cheers!"
this gem of it's kind coming directly after my post before last.
Really!
In all honesty I must ask: Could it BE any other than HE?
Even though circumstantial, his twisted, immature trade-mark ways are all there.
Are we to ever be rid of the poking and jabbing cowards that many (but not all) of the bad anonymous truly are? (Yes, it is rhetorical but is a fair query also, and one that merits it's own self-asserting answer, I do believe.)
Also to consider is that, as it is now, anyone could post anonymously under another's name who (that) is posting that way. For instance, I could post as "Ed" and if I did so, who could know the difference other than Ed himself? I believe that Ed would not be much amused at such a thing happening.
John, why not just disallow anonymous posting all together? (That is, if this can be done even?) We all know that various of others have suggested this option as well. It seems to make sense.
How very nicely cleansed, things would quickly become.
James
P.S. And, if only the identity was known truly, that other latter-day hell hornet of this very blog, I would have placed upon the back of such a Blackened Lead Medallion but - very, very small! Repent and make yourself known - you hiding rat! There is still time-enough for redemption, and your return into our good company but be assured, we'll not be holding our breaths abated severally or individually, for such miracles that surely will not come. Get off the sinistral path.
whosever feeding this troll laxatives please stop!
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In 1908 the Chiltern Toy Works was opened. It wasn't until 1915, though that the first teddy was produced, being the 'Master teddy'. This happy little teddy was made in five sizes, and was dressed in dungarees and a cotton shirt. With a comparatively large head, he had a wide grin and large opaque eyes. cute teddy bear names
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