It's a new year and I feel full of optimism. This year of 2013 will be the year that Bessler's wheel will be reconstructed. Furthermore it will be exactly the same internal design as he had, although there may be some minor differences in sizes and ratios. How will we know? We'll have to wait for it to appear, then I'll show you.
I cannot wait to get back to work to prove my design and let the world have it for free. No patent, no license, no sale - just the widest possible dissemination by every kind of media.
I know there are many who oppose my no-patent persuasion but that is a view I arrived at after many years of deliberation - and anyway, it might be you who discovers the secret, not me! You must do what seems best to you.
Here are some reasons for optimism in 2013 :)
1. “We don’t like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out.” - Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962
2. “Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances.” - Dr. Lee DeForest, Inventor of the TV
3. “I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.” - Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
4. “640K ought to be enough for anybody.” - Bill Gates, 1981
5. “The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a ‘C,’ the idea must be feasible.” - Yale University management professor critiquing Fred Smith’s paper proposing what became FedEx
6. “Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau.” Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929
7. “Everything that can be invented has been invented.” - Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899
7. “Everything that can be invented has been invented.” - Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899
8. “Louis Pasteur’s theory of germs is ridiculous fiction.” - Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872
9. “If excessive smoking actually plays a role in the production of lung cancer, it seems to be a minor one.” - National Cancer Institute, 1954
10. “Sensible and responsible women do not want to vote.” - Grover Cleveland, U.S. President in 1905
11. “I’d shut [Apple] down and give the money back to the shareholders.” - Michael Dell, founder and CEO of Dell, Inc., 1997
12. “This ‘telephone’ has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication.” - Western Union Internal Memo, 1876
So when someone tells you that you can’t do it, remember these quotes, charge forward, and just focus on making it happen. Cheers to an innovative and productive 2013.
(thanks to Forbes magazine)
Good luck to all of us - and good health, wealth and happiness. :)
JC
10a2c5d26e15f6g7h10ik12l3m6n14o14r5s17tu6v5w4y4-3,’.
Well John, I'm really glad you did say it as I also have a likely similar feeling.
ReplyDeleteIt shall be realized physically and conceptually very soon, and faster possibly than many might even be able to imagine.
That is a good list you put together.
Might I add yet another, so as to get up to a nice "13"?
It would be that treasure as was uttered by one of your very own, over there:
"X-rays are a hoax!" - Lord Kelvin
This utterance will LIVE forever because so short and so revealing of something-or-other - this to be left to the conceiver individually.
And I, in-turn, wish for (most) all a greatly joyous, productive and bountiful New Year.
James
Thanks James! Don't you just love those 'experts'.
ReplyDeleteJC
I like your optimism, John. And yes, why not 2013. Several people are close, I feel.
ReplyDeleteMay Heaven protect us from the experts. My personal favorite is the professional astronomer who mathematically proved (beyond a shadow of doubt) that spaceflight -especially to the moon- was utterly impossible since the rocket needed to carry so much fuel - completely in accordance with the Hallowed Laws - it had to weigh over 3 million tons. It would never lift off.
Somebody came up with the concept of jettisonable rocket stages and more powerful fuels and engines and the problem was solved. The expert was off by a factor of several thousands.
Andre, I just caught part of a programme about the Apollo moon shots, there was a guy at N.A.S.A. who was very low in the ranks, but he insisted that the landing vehicle would have to be small, and detatch itself from a larger orbiting space craft. Of course nobody took any notice, but I think that it was Werner Von Braun himself who after consdiering all the possibilities, realised the guy was right.The rest is history, so it just goes to show, experts can be wrong also !
DeleteStephen Burke
Yes Andre space flight was impossible! Actually I met Professor Hal Puthoff at a conference on fuelless space flight. Fascinating concept. You sucked stuff in and blew it out the back and moved forwards - so simple...in theory!
ReplyDeleteJC
You are confusing these two inventors:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_DeForest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo_Farnsworth
Just for fun I tried searching on "John Collins" on Wikipedia.
It came up with a page of about 35 historical people of that name.
Someday soon I hope to see you have a well deserved entry on this list.
God speed, John Collins.
I took the info of the Forbes magazine, Bill. I see what you mean but I'll leave it as it is as long as people get the message.
DeleteJC
John, we get mostly U.S. tv program(me)s over here, and of course they claim Farnsworth as the inventor of television.As I understand it, Farnsworth invented the first electronically scanning telly, whereas Baird was the first to invent television but he used a mechanical scanner.By the way do you get the t.v. programme Warehouse 13 over in Blighty ? On the show they use a device known as a Farnsworth communicator, a smallish b&w t.v. screen and radio combo, looks really retro-cool !
DeleteStephen Burke
We have all suffered..Some Anonomous expert said dispite my enthiusiasm that I would never in a million years produce perpetual motion.
ReplyDeleteI am about to prove him wrong.
Go for it, Trevor.
ReplyDeleteJC
LOL! John, I REALLY loved your list of self-appointed and self-annointed "experts" proclaiming various technologies to be "impossible" that we take for granted today. Thanks for brightening up our first day of the new year with this material!
ReplyDeleteIt's so easy for anyone to pontificatingly proclaim that something is impossible just because it has not been done before. That requires ZERO imagination or effort on their part. BUT, the TRULY creative and ingenious individuals always try to imagine how something MIGHT be possible and then, most importantly, they roll up their sleeves and get to work on making it happen to again prove what Thomas Edison once said: "Invention is 1% inspiration and 99% PERSPIRATION!"
I, too, expect THIS year, 2013, to be THE one in which Bessler's secret PM wheel mechanics are finally resurrected and the first WORKING replicas of his wheels are produced. As many learned in the last blog entry's comments, I suspect that I ALREADY have his basic design and am just a few "adjustments" away from making it fully operational! I'm hoping that will happen well BEFORE the END of the 300th anniversary of the first SUCCESSFUL public demonstration of his Gera wheel which will be midnight, local Gera, Germany time of June 11th THIS year. I'm more confident of this then I have ever been before!!!
So, let's start this new year off by rededicating ourselves to finally achieving success in our various quests to achieve the "Holy Grail of Mechanics" or a WORKING PM design. There is no mystery as to the source of the energy / mass it will output (at least not to me!). Now all we have to do is coax that energy / mass forth from our various machines and then who knows in how many wonderful ways it will change our world.
Yes, this WILL, indeed, be a MOST interesting year in the history of PM!
Hi John,..It looks like we are going to need a simple pin code again to avoid these spammers.
ReplyDeleteHappy New Year to everyone here! John, thanks for the great quotes and the general encouragement. I have been spending every spare moment (few and far between, unfortunately) on theory and practical building of the wheel. I feel that I am getting a good theoretical grasp on the principle by using the concept of a driven damped oscillator (thanks Arktos and Andre for telling me about their parametric oscillators). The oscillator is a strange animal - ranging from trivial, boring to complex, resonant and chaotic. My recent builds have been a disapointment - I have come to see that I have far too much damping - i.e. the axle does not turn freely enough. I am mail-ordering some good ball-bearings, hope to get past that problem then. I too, feel that I am on to something really good. Glad to see the excitement and enthusiasm of ye all is still there. May 2013 bring us Bessler's wheel!
ReplyDeleteI have found friction and damping to be difficult to deal with. In some of my computer models I can get quite good net energy output, but only if I set damping very low, say around 0.01 N-s/m. (The movement being damped is rotor segments oscillating axially with respect to the hub of a horizontal wheel. Energy is being delivered into the system by the weight variation of the segments according to whether they are moving eastward or westward).
DeleteI think that's an unreasonably low damping value, but I have to admit I don't yet have much of a feel for what is reasonable or not.
I found old man Coulomb's work on internal friction enlightening when trying to calculate non-linear systems. The university of Mercer has published some interesting papers on the subject:
Deletehttp://arxiv.org/html/physics/0208025
Of interest here is the treatise on oscillators and modified Coulomb Damping Model, (see abstract) where they are applying a modified law of friction using a variable coefficient of friction depending on a power law in the energy of mechanical oscillation. Through the use of three different exponents--0, ½, and 1 all commonly encountered non-viscous forms of damping are accommodated.
There's also a nice little BASIC program to compute results of applicable equations.
Thanks, Andre, for that useful reference. I'll print it out and study it some more.
DeleteI'm currently trying (without much luck) to find tables of damping coefficients for typical real-world machine elements such as plain bearings, ball bearings, linear motion bearings etc, of various sizes and under various loads.
Thanks again, Andre and Arktos for your valuable input. I shall look up your reference on Coulomb. I also have been looking for tables on damping coefficients. I think I still not really fully understand the differential equations - the damping factor is connected mathematically to the torque and moment of inertia - as is the natural frequency, which also depends on the same variables. I suspect that there is a hint here - in order to control resonance/chaotic motion, special damping frequencies are needed, and then, in order to achieve these damping frequencies, the torque and moment of inertia must be constructed to match this. I am still trying to fathom out how the simulation program's angular momentum (default value of 0.01) matches with all this. I suspect that it is simply a factor for the software and has nothing to do with the formulas.
DeletePART I:
ReplyDeleteI just did a preliminary motor assisted rotation test of my new "Contact AFTER 4:30" variation of the "right track" wheel design using a primary spring starting stretch distance of 0.1875 inches (corresponding to 0.75 inches in the full size Merseburg wheel). As soon as the "Run" button was clicked on this immobilized wheel (immobilized by pinning it to the background of the workspace), the 10:30 position weighted lever actually FLEW up violently! That's a very good sign and means that with a smaller primary spring starting stretch distance the leading weighted levers should still be applying a nice force to the 9:00 going to 10:30 weighted lever as the drum rotates through a 45 degree interval of rotation. Decreasing that stretch distance will also cause the 6:00 going to 7:30 position weighted lever to remain closer to a vertical orientation during the travel of its pivot. I've only recently realized that one really does not require an "early" Bessler Effect in order to keep the CoM of the wheel's 8 weights located on the drum's descending side IF one can maximimize the verticality of the 6:00 going to 7:30 weighted lever during its transition.
What makes me "uncomfortable" with this "Contact AFTER 4:30 (but before 6:00)" variation of the "right track" wheel design is that, for a 5.5 ft tall witness standing near the periphery of the drum, the weight to rim stop impact sounds from the drum would seem to emanate from a point in the drum that was level with his waist or even crotch. Yes, technically that is on the "descending" side of the drum, but it seems too low to me despite the nice immediate lifting of the 10:30 weighted lever the configuration produces.
Then there is also this famous DT quote to consider:
"...these weights, on the contrary, are the essential parts, and constitute the perpetual motion itself; since from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity; and when they come to be placed together, and so arranged one against another that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wonderfully speedy flight, one or other of them must apply its weight at right angles to the axis, which in its turn must also move."
Note the line "...one or other of them must apply its weight at RIGHT ANGLES to the axis, which in its turn must also move."
PART II:
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like Bessler is saying that the weights make contact with their rims stops either at the 3:00 position or just BEFORE it. If that is the case, then, when a weight resting on its rim stop finally reached the drum's 3:00 position, a line passing through the center of the weight and the center of the axle would form an exact 90 degree or right angle with another vertical line passing through the center of the axle. This angle, obviously, will NOT be formed if the weights do not make rim stop contact until AFTER their levers' pivots pass the drum's 4:30 position. So, either Bessler WAS saying that contact IS made BEFORE 3:00 OR he was just waxing poetic when he provided that description OR we have a "bad" translation here.
In any event, I've decided to start my testing of the various primary spring starting stretch distances with the "Contact BEFORE 3:00" wheel design and see if I can make it work. This variation has the advantage of maximizing the horizontal displacement of the weights' CoM onto the drum's descending side (which for the full sized Merseburg wheel was about 0.88 inches). Having rim stop contact taking place before 3:00 also has another unique advantage: it simplifies the construction and installation of the gravity activated latches that were used to lock the weights against their rim stops when ONE of a two-directional wheel's "sub wheels" is undergoing retrograde rotation and its 8 weights' CoM had to be returned to the center of the axle so that the drum could be kept OB by the other active driving sub wheel.
Should I fail to obtain satisfying results with the "Contact BEFORE 3:00", then I shall proceed to the testing of the other two variations which have lower horizontal CoM displacements of about 0.72 inches for the full sized Merseburg wheel. Equipping the weighted levers of the sub wheels of these variations with gravity latches for use in a two-directional wheel is more complicated, but not impossible.
I've also found something in the second DT portrait that is beginning to get my pulse pounding. It's a difficult to find and interpret clue that MAY finally tell me WHICH ONE of the three variations is THE one Bessler used!
It's truly amazing how things can suddenly jump out of the portraits and come into sharp focus just when you need the information the most!
So much for A weekly update!. What is worse, the spam or TG's daily spam?
ReplyDeleteWell, I think that you will eventually find that my "daily spam" is FAR more important than the occasional spam that pops up here. Mine will eventually lead to THE design that Bessler found and used. The other spam will lead to nothing except JC needing to exercise his fingers in hitting the Delete button!
DeleteBefore you can make the claim that you have reproduced a Bessler wheel, you will first need to prove that the portraits were produced by Bessler, the things you see in the portraits are clues, and that your interpretations actually match the clues. Right now you are all over the place with your guesses. Your approach appears to be "if the guess doesn't work, then guess again". You are a long long way away from making any claim. You may indeed produce a working wheel some day, but to say it is a Bessler design, no way.
Delete"Right now you are all over the place with your guesses. Your approach appears to be "if the guess doesn't work, then guess again."
DeleteYou are absolutely RIGHT! That, unfortunately, is the way one MUST start with portrait analysis. But, over time, by building and testing MANY model wheels, one eventually culls the valid clues AND their proper interpretations from the sea of symbols contained in the two portraits. Absent a precise blueprint for Bessler's secret PM mechanism this is the ONLY approach that will work, laborious as it is.
For me, the ultimate proof of the many valid and properly interpreted DT portrait clues will come when the design based upon them finally works. I truly believe that I am NOW only weeks away from that point!
What TG doesn't understand is since he won't give us any general description of the wheel, the nitty gritty detail updates he keeps presenting make no sense and for the most part have to be ignored. He is wasting our time and his as no one is reading the posts. Having his own blog makes so much more sense for the purpose of logging this manushia.
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary, I think I've given the readers of this blog a VERY good "general" description of the "right track" wheel design that I am working on over the last few months. I could, at this time, actually publish screen shots of my WM2D workspace models, but that would still not satisfy everyone and I'd rather put that effort into my continuing modeling and testing.
DeleteEventually, I WILL be publishing the full details of THE design (including a video of the virtual wheel running), but ONLY if it actually works! I know there will be craftsmen out there that will be eager to start building it and I want to maximize the probability that what they build will work so that they will not be wasting their time, money, effort, and, most importantly, emotions chasing another "no hope" design.
For the moment my "updates" are meant to be of a general nature just to indicate the directions my research is taking and what, if any, results I am getting. They are not meant, at this point, to teach anybody EXACTLY how to replicate Bessler secret PM mechanism. Hopefully, however, that day WILL come and come SOON! We've waited ALL of our lives for THE solution and a few more months won't make that much difference. Please be patient.
What a shame.
ReplyDeleteAnd I thought we just might get through John's nice New Year's salutation/greeting by staying on his topic for once, and not having to look at yet more bi- and tripartite boorage, as coming from our unknowable person-peculiar. (Uh, that is IF it is not actually an NSA mega-computer, set to the task of driving us all to conditions of interminable attention distraction, and away from any real solutions, as we might need?)
The actual, good part of the saga though, is that the less aggressive of us are finally beginning to object to the massive and tasteless overbearance, that surely is the @technoXXX phenomenon.
For instance, Anonymous of 2 January 2013 at 16:13 has nicely allowed to us as follows
"So much for A weekly update!. What is worse, the spam or TG's daily spam?"
Well stated and, since it is in the form of a query, I'll answer it.
It IS "TG's daily spam?", that is the worse of the two! (Really now, could I possibly have stated it was the other?)
And also, Anonymous of 2 January 2013 at 18:54 eloquently opined like this
"What TG doesn't understand is since he won't give us any general description of the wheel, the nitty gritty detail updates he keeps presenting make no sense and for the most part have to be ignored. He is wasting our time and his as no one is reading the posts. Having his own blog makes so much more sense for the purpose of logging this manushia"
Of course, this latter Anonymous is perfectly correct in asserting that it makes "no sense" for the very reason as he gave, and, that "He is wasting our time . . .", and also that he ". . . doesn't undertand . . ."
I'm not sure about this last, though. I think he does understand at some fundamental level but, it is that he does not CARE a wit about how much jabbing and poking of our ribs he does, in his trade-mark, pseudo-friendly manner. (Speaking of "pseudo".)
What other than the above realities could this clear case of most sneaky parasitism - as all summed and averaged - actually be?
He should have his own blog as the second Anonymous rightly urges, and his likely sole reader would be him/her/itself alone.
Just think of it!
He could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on, and that unitary audience would endlessly admire as well as listen to it ALL - every single bit of Part 1 through Part 24 or whatever!
For us, the bargain in it would be that we'd finally FREE of our too wordy, clueless menace.
Voila! No more nuisance factor!
How fitting and deserved a New Year's gift that would be to us.
With swelling alacrity, we DO await it!
CHEERS!
James
All JC has to do is tell me, at ANY time, to leave this blog and I will be gone IMMEDIATELY. I will not contribute to any blog or site where the ACTUAL owner does not welcome my input. Perhaps, he does not do this because he senses that THIS time someone might ACTUALLY have a REAL solution to the Bessler wheel mystery and he wants to make sure that its development is documented and its successful achievement is announced right HERE on HIS blog?
DeleteIf anybody does not find my material of interest, then they are certainly free to ignore it. I assure them that I will not be offended in the least. The "right track" approach I advocate is NOT for everyone. It is for a VERY select few that are really SERIOUS about finally obtaining a solution to this fascinating historical mystery that will result in the resurrection of Bessler's wheels using THE SAME secret mechanism that he actually found and used. IF I was not 100% convinced that I DO, IN FACT, NOW have most of the details of THE design that he found and used, then I would not waste one second writing anything about it here or any place else. I base my confidence upon certain information I now have that has NOT been previously discussed here or anywhere else! Remember, so far, I've only revealed about 30% of the details of the "right track" design that Bessler found and used. There is FAR more to it that will, eventually, be released and will prove to be absolutely amazing!
I'm hoping, in the coming weeks, to also begin a SERIOUS discussion of the various "higher level" clues in the two DT portraits whose interpretations eventually brought me to the "right track" approach and helped me progress down it over the years. These clues have NEVER even been mentioned on the internet before let alone properly interpreted! Those who are truly serious about a REAL solution should find that material VERY interesting, indeed, and I am confident that the discussion will result in MANY joining me on the "right track".
Look TG, I could ask you to leave this blog but I don't weant to be put into that position. My chief requirement is that people refrain from using foul language. In addition I would prefer that they do not deliberately annoy others either by name-calling or by doing what the majority seem to find irritating. I have asked you several times to reduce the length and detail of your posts simply because their sheer length is tiresome, and the detail, doubtless facinating to you, is repetitious and monotonous to most of us.
DeleteHowever, I do not necessarily want you to stop providing updates on your work, because there are, very occasionally, glimpses of interesting comment. I would much prefer it if you simply altered your comments to comply with the wishes of the majority of comments here. I simply do not see any reason why you have to be so long-winded about everyting you do. It's as if you think that no-one else is doing anything to solve Bessler's wheel. If you do believe that then I must thoroughly disabuse you of that notion; nothing could be further from the truth. I receive dozens of emails every week telling me of their author's work and how encouraged they are by my blog and the Besslerwheel forum.
So cut out the capital/uppercase lettering -it's regarded as shouting in net etiquet - reduce the length and detail and number of comments and we shall get along fine. Or start your own blog; it's easy to set up and I promise to put a link from here to it if you wish, then you can say what ever you like for as long as you like and in as much detail as you like.
JC
Very well said John. I hope it gets through this time, but I doubt it. Thanks for trying. Justsomeone
Delete@ JC
DeleteThanks for the valuable feedback. Since I still feel "welcome" here, I shall continue to post comments.
I've tried to give some measure of technical detail to my comments to, aside from documenting my research for historical purposes, give those considering becoming mobilists who come here some idea of what is involved in such research. And, of course, I always shamelessly promote the "right track" approach to a solution because I am VERY convinced that it is the ONLY one with a REAL chance of success. That's not to say that any other approach can not work, just that I consider the "right track" one to be the one with the GREATEST probability of being successful in OUR lifetimes!
However, if the technical detail in my comments is not of interest to a majority that are NOT on the "right track" like myself, then I think I can eliminate much of it to make shorter and less frequent comments, yet still give the minority who ARE interested in this approach a clear picture of the general direction of my research and its current status. I don't want to just drop out and then pop up again months from now (assuming that this blog is still here then!) proclaiming that I FINALLY found IT! That would make the rediscovery look like it came out of a vacuum which it certainly would not have.
Since you have given me some feedback, I'd like to give you some!
I'd like to see much more discussion of the Bessler literature clues and, ESPECIALLY, the DT portrait clues in the future on this blog. It's VERY frustrating for me to find that the very existence of the portrait clues is denied by most Bessler mobilists when they actually make up about 95% of ALL of the clues that relate to THE internal mechanism of his wheels! Perhaps such future discussions will begin to change this VERY sad situation.
Yes, I have considered my own blog, but there are problems with that. First, it's difficult, timewise, for me to even comment daily on your blog. Second, I'd hate to set up a blog, have traffic to it daily looking for THE answer, and then (God forbid!), I NOT finally reach the end of the "right track" with a WORKING design I could provide them with. They would all be very disappointed and I'd have no real reason to continue the blog! It's much easier for me to just "piggy-back" on someone else's blog...at least for the next month or so during which time I should finally know IF the design I have is THE one. If that does not happen, then my comments here may end entirely unless I can find something I've missed in the portraits that would give me a new direction in which to head. But, I seriously doubt that will happen as I now believe that I have nearly all of the embedded clues in the portraits (but I've been wrong about that before!). I either DO have THE basic design that Bessler found and used and will know so for a fact relatively shortly. OR, I do NOT have it and that will then signal me that it's time for me to "retire" from being an active mobilist and wish well to those who come after me. I know that there's a comfortable armchair out there waiting for me, but I'd rather take my seat in it AFTER I've rediscovered THE secret PM mechanism that Bessler found and used.
For me, it's NOW or NEVER! Let's ALL hope it's NOW!
WHAT is it WITH the use of CAPITALS every now and THEN, is IT coDE?
ReplyDeleteNo, my use of capitals is NOT a code. It's my way of emphasizing certain key words in order to express how important I think they are. I've written like this all my life and it's hard not to do so now. However, I am aware that some people find it distracting and I am endeavoring to minimize my use of this method for their sakes.
DeleteI had some time earlier this morning and, to even my surprise, I managed to complete the testing of the "Contact BEFORE 3:00" wheel design that I mentioned above as being the first of the three variations that I intended to test.
ReplyDeleteBasically, I just tested the design by varying the 4:1 scale computer model wheel's primary spring starting stretch distances from 0.5 inches downward to 0.0625 inches in 0.0625 inch increments (this corresponds to varying the starting stretch distances in the full size Merseburg wheel from 2.0 inches down to 0.25 inches in 0.25 inch increments) and then forcing the wheel to rotate at one rpm through a 45 degree increment of CW rotation with a motor to see how its eight weighted levers behaved.
With the higher starting stretch distances in my wheel's 8 primary springs, the 6:00 going to 7:30 weight would not part from its rim stop, although the extra tension acting on the levers kept the configuration of the weighted levers from 10:30 to 3:00 stable. At the lower starting stretch distances, my 6:00 going to 7:30 weight would part from it rim stop to arrive at 7:30 with its lever perfectly vertical, BUT the 10:30 to 3:00 weighted levers' configuration would then immediately, upon starting the simulation, flop over to the ascending side of the drum. To compensate for this, a drop down latch supporting the 12:00 weighted lever was needed to stabilize the configuration.
In all tests, when forced to rotate through a 45 degree increment of drum rotation, there was only a "Bessler Effect" VERY late in the interval. For most of the interval there was almost no CW rotation of the 9:00 going to 10:30 weighted lever taking place and, consequently, the CoM of the 8 weights quickly rotated over to the ASCENDING side of the drum where it's NOT supposed to be at any time!
The bottom line of today's testing was that THIS particular variation was NOT able to keep the CoM of its eight 1 ounce weights CONTINUOUSLY on the drum's descending side throughout the 45 degree interval of rotation. THEREFORE, I can now state, without ANY hesitation, that Bessler's design was NOT a "Contact BEFORE 3:00" type.
So, now it's time to continue on to the other two variations which have weight to rim stop contact taking place AFTER their lever's pivots pass the drum's 3:00 position (the next variation has contact taking place somewhere between 3:00 and 4:30 and the last variation between 4:30 and 6:00). That testing, hopefully, will be completed as quickly as this variation's was.
In an earlier comment above I wrote:
"I've also found something in the second DT portrait that is beginning to get my pulse pounding. It's a difficult to find and interpret clue that MAY finally tell me WHICH ONE of the three variations is THE one Bessler used!"
Upon further analysis of this new clue, I realized that it really only tells one that a weight's contact with its rim stop takes place SOMEWHERE between 1:30 and 6:00. That really tells one very little so it's a good thing that I actually did the exhaustive testing needed to demonstrate that contact does NOT take place BEFORE 3:00.
I even realized that this clue that Bessler gives has a sort of mocking tone to it! If anybody is interested in what this clue is, I will reveal it at this time. BUT, first, to prove sincere interest, someone is going to have to find something in the SECOND DT portrait for me.
Somewhere in that portrait, Bessler has inserted a ? mark! Can anybody "see" it? It's VERY easy to miss, but even a "newbie" portrait analyst should be able to find it with a little bit of effort.
ANOTHER daily wheel post from TG ( Ken) !!! I wish there was a button I could push to make ALL his posts never appear. Ken, over at Besslerwheel.com you posted 948,144 words!!! Just as a comparison, Ralph ( long time respected member ) has 2,830 more posts than you..............but still has 84,665 less words than you!!! Ralph still gets his point across. Please, please SHUT UP! With all due respect, Justsomeone
ReplyDeleteThanks for comparing me to Ken B., but I'm not even close to being at his level.
DeleteSometimes I wish I could push a button and make all comments here NOT relevant to finding THE solution to the Bessler wheel mystery disappear. Then, with "all due respect", if such a button existed and was pressed, practically ALL of YOUR comments would disappear!
Well there appears to be something that looks like a question mark (rotated) in the carvings on the cabinet behind and to the right of Bessler. I need to find a higher resolution version. Any one have a link to one?
ReplyDeleteNice try! But, no, that ornamental carving on the top edge of the organ's cabinet is supposed to represent the clouds up in Heaven from whence the angels flutter down to Earth. This is the way Bessler symbolically tells his readers that the secret of PM was given to him by God through the agency of angelic visitation. Note that one of the three angels is not visible because it is behind Bessler's cap and head. This suggests that the angel is penetrating his head to deliver the secret directly into his mind!
DeleteYes, the leftmost cabinet carving does look a bit like a question mark on its side, but it's NOT the one I'm looking for. Keep trying!
"I need to find a higher resolution version. Any one have a link to one?"
Deletehttp://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/files/ye5dibih_106.jpg
and
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/files/dtlk4orl_114.jpg
(thanks to Stewart)
- Mark
The question mark symbol has evolved over time. There are many possibilities. Can you tell us if the symbol we seek is the symbol we use today (?).
ReplyDeleteHint: It's not IN the 2nd portrait, but in the text BELOW that portrait.
DeletePART I:
ReplyDeleteOkay, since I see someone showing SOME interest here, I'll let everyone take a quick peek through my Bessler "eyeglasses" at a very interesting clue in the 2nd portrait that I recently found.
The question mark is actually formed from the last letter in the word "noch" in the second line of text under the portrait, it is not a separate ? symbol. In the two portraits, Bessler often uses two points to define a line that then "points" to important numerical clues. The problem, of course, is to decide which are the pairs of points in a portrait that he is using to determine the direction (or slope) of a line that then points to a clue.
Note that the top part of the "noch letter question mark" forms a tight dot or point. Where is the other point that must be paired with it? It's the origin point of the protractor on the right side of the globe's stand (the origin point of a protractor is placed on the intersection of two straight lines so that the angles they make with each other can be read on the protractor's angle scale). If one draws a straight line between these two points, he will discover that this line exactly lies on the protractor's 90 degree radial. Bessler had to very carefully tilt the protractor to make this alignment occur. It is NOT an accident!
Next, look at the ONLY object upon which the protractor rests. It appears to be some sort of flat metal bar that has a hole at its other end so that it can be hung on a nail in a wall (this is a pivot symbol, BTW). This bar is either a file or, perhaps, a metal straight edge for drawing lines. Note that the other end of this bar is resting on one of the lamp's tripodal "feet".
The metal bar whose end rests on the lamp's "foot" symbolizes a weight that has just come into contact with its rim stop! Note that the upper edge of the bar lies between the protractor's 90 degree and 45 degree angle radials. Bessler is using this symbolism to tell use in what 45 degree octant of the drum that his weighted levers are coming into contact with their rim stops. In fact, all we need to know is what drum position to assign to that line we drew through the protractor's 90 degree angle radial and we would then know in which octant his weighted levers were landing on their rim stops! This is a important piece of information that could save a reverse engineering Bessler mobilist much work if he knew which octant it was. But, how do we assign a drum position to the protractor's 90 degree angle radial using the line that we drew between the protractor's origin and the dot of the question mark in the letter "h" of "noch" so that we can determine this octant that weight to rim stop contact took place in?
Simple (...at least on the face of it). Extend the line that was drawn through the two points farther to the right and downward. The last letter it will pass through is the letter "c". "C" is the 3rd letter of the alphabet and this seems to indicate that the protractor's 90 degree radial corresponds to a drum's 3:00 position. Thus, Bessler seems to be saying here that the weights came to rest on their stops somewhere in the octant from 1:30 to 3:00 so that they would be resting on the stops BY the time their lever pivots reached the drum's 3:00 position.
Man you blew it. I didn't have a chance to find the clue. Bad TG.
DeleteSorry to have mislead you (and others). When I use the words "DT portrait" I always mean the engraved image AND the text under it. I thought that the mention of a ? mark would have automatically drawn everyone's attention to the text portion.
DeleteWhen it comes to DT portrait analysis, sometimes clues are wholly contained within the engraved images, sometimes wholly within the text, and occasionally require combining the images and the text in special ways!
PART II:
ReplyDeleteInstantly convinced, the reverse engineering Bessler mobilist may run off and begin constructing a variation of the "right track" design that I have previously called the "Contact BEFORE 3:00" design. He will eventually discover that it does NOT work and, most likely, give up his quest to duplicate Bessler's wheels. I, however, using computer modeling and simulation was able to eliminate this variation in about a day instead of the weeks that it would ordinarily take a "hands on" builder to do. Thus, the 1:30 to 3:00 octant is eliminated from consideration.
Now look at what letter the line passed through just before it arrived at the letter "c". That appears to be the letter "f" which is the 6th letter of the alphabet. Here Bessler is telling us that the 90 degree angle radial of the protractor might be considered to be the 6:00 position of the drum (also note the flourish on the bottom of the "f". It is the only one attached to a letter that hangs pendantly downward like the weight below the 6:00 position of the clock attached to the organ!). If that is the case, then the weights inside of his wheel drums would have made contact with their rim stops in the octant from 4:30 to 6:00!
But our extended line also passes through a position BETWEEN the letters "f" and "c" which could mean that we need to average them to determine what drum position to assign to the protractor's 90 degree radial. Since "f" = 6:00 and "c" = 3:00 in the numerology Bessler uses here, we get their average by simply writing (6 + 3)/2 = 9/2 = 4.5 = 4:30! If we assign the 4:30 drum position to the protractor's 90 degree angle radial, we must then conclude that the weights inside of his drums made rim stop contact in the octant from 3:00 to 4:30.
So which octant, finally, must be THE one in which the weights made rim contact? Good question and that is exactly why Bessler used a question mark to lead the reverse engineering mobilists to this clue! There ARE other similar clues in the second portrait that also generate the three possible octants for weight to rim stop contact to take place in, but I will not go into them at this time.
So far, I have not found any clue that SPECIFIES exactly which of the three possible drum octants is THE one that Bessler used. Apparently, the mobilist must find it by himself with much work. So far, after a marathon testing session, I've managed to completely eliminate the 1:30 to 3:00 octant from consideration. Next, I will begin testing the "right track" variation that assumes contact in the 3:00 to 4:30 octant. This is the one that "feels right" to me...but I have been wrong before!
I consider my recent finding and interpretation of this 2nd portrait clue to be a very good omen which indicates that I am, finally, getting very close to the end of the "right track"!
LOL!!!!!! Just as I figured John, in one ear and out the other! I am done here. I can't take any more of his nonsense. It's a shame because it was a great blog! Ken B. , you get your wish. You won't have to see any of my posts. For the record, I think you're a fool coming to the conclusions you do from the nonexistent portrait clues! How funny will it be to discover the artist was not Bessler. Take care John. Justsomeone
ReplyDelete@Justsomeone
DeleteWhy leave. TG is entitled to his opinion. Ignore him if you like.
I find TG's interpretations of the imagery in the portraits very interesting, whether right or wrong. No offense intended to John or Stuart, but just because they don't think the portraits contain clues doesn't mean they don't. It is just their opinion. Why dismiss possible evidence. TG is doing all the research in this area. If he is right, the world will benefit, if wrong, no loss on our part, right.
By the way, there is another "abundant" source of clues related to Bessler that for the most part has been dismissed because of lack of understanding. It is there that I am doing my research and where I think the answer will be found.
DeletePlease stay justsomeone. I have a plan!
DeleteJC
Thanks John. I wish I could be as open as TG, but then I would be giving too much information and I'm afraid someone else will take that information and come up with a working wheel before me. So sue me, I'm human. No I don't plan on patenting it, and will give it away just you like you, but I want to say I did it. I can't think of anything more cool than flying to the UK and showing you first though.
Delete@ Justsomeone
DeleteI guess that "peek" I gave you through my Bessler "eyeglasses" was a little too much for you! That is why I keep saying that my research conclusions are NOT right for everyone. The DT portrait clues, once properly located and interpreted, are, indeed, a "paradigm altering" experience that can turn EVERYTHING one thought he knew about Bessler's wheels on its head!
But, please don't leave "in a huff" (whether genuine or feigned) on my account. Really, I think you are one of the more intelligent visitors to this blog and we do need as much quality input as possible here.
Just a little while longer and a working wheel will silence all these profound theorists.
ReplyDeleteI say when someone finally gets a runner, we all go shack up with John for a couple of weeks and enjoy the weather (and brew) over there. It sounds like he has the space. We can help him write the first chapter of his next book ...
ReplyDeleteI am astounded!
ReplyDeleteJohn, you offered @technoXXX a few kind but firm words as to how he might contour his behavior and stay and contribute here but, just after it was right back to the very things for which he receives fire!
"The boy just could not help himself!"
Given it, as we just observed, it seems like some form of madness that he suffers - a kind of addiction comes to my mind, along with a profound lack self-control.
Is it a pathology for which he may not be responsible?
Well, certainly I am not qualified to say but, one can have one's niggling little suspicions about it, no?
Post all this newest 'usual' coming from him, masterfully, Anonymous of 3 January 2013 at 19:20 (actually "Justsomeone" as he signed, from B.W.F.) offered to us this point-on, true gem
"ANOTHER daily wheel post from TG ( Ken) !!! I wish there was a button I could push to make ALL his posts never appear. Ken, over at Besslerwheel.com you posted 948,144 words!!! Just as a comparison, Ralph ( long time respected member ) has 2,830 more posts than you..............but still has 84,665 less words than you!!! Ralph still gets his point across. Please, please SHUT UP! With all due respect, Justsomeone"
Well, there it is. It says it all.
I need not add a single solitary other word . . . other than to add to the chorus of one thus far - John's - that urges Justsomeone to not leave.
Cheers!
James
PS Well, not exactly 'all'.
"Be thee not a hypocrite!"
I owe an apology to all and do, for having used within my main opus the following out-shouts: "CARE"; "ALL; "FREE"; "DO" and the worst "CHEERS!"
John, your advisement of "So cut out the capital/uppercase lettering -it's regarded as shouting in net etiquet . . ." is on it's face one true and apt, and so I shall but, will certain 'others'?
"Time will tell."
I actually posted a poll asking people to vote to keep TG or not, but I changed my mind, deciding it was up to me to take any action I deemed necessary. I'll give it some thought over the weekend, but I have to say TG, you are beginning to really *#$$ me off!
ReplyDeleteJC
I think Tg is entertaining, in a masochistic kind of way. :)
ReplyDeleteSoon he'll realize after the next stage or two of sims, hopefully, his classic design fails for the same reasons all such designs fail, and he'll become a philosopher like me. :)
There might be a clue or two in the portraits, but I don't think they are going to reveal an OB design, anymore than the other pictures. It wouldn't be necessary to hide so elaborately, for one thing, since it was an allegedly simple construction; not to mention that the levers and weights and springs aren't what made it go 'round.
The drawings showing (nonconservative) energy conversions are the best clues.
Doug enlightened us with:
Delete"There might be a clue or two in the portraits..."
LOL! Yes, I, too, once thought just that. But a chance discovery years ago immediately flushed THAT erroneous assumption out of my mind. There are, literally, DOZENS of clues in the two portraits that are carefully hidden so as to APPEAR to be random. However, once a reverse engineering mobilist begins to build or computer model based on what he thinks the DT portrait clues are telling him to do, he finds that, slowly, over the course of YEARS, the locations and meanings of more and more of the clues become apparent to him. In effect, through his efforts, his Bessler "eyeglass" prescription continually improves as a vision of THE secret wheel mechanism comes into sharper and sharper focus. One of the LAST of the portrait symbols that will make sense to him is the meaning of the "Tilted Protractor Clue". I NOW have the complete AND accurate interpretation of that symbol and know that I am VERY close to achieving my goal!
Glad to read that you find me "entertaining". I, too, find YOU, as I do with all "no track" skeptics, to be somewhat amusing.
Sorry, John, to read that I am beginning to "*#$$" you off.
ReplyDeleteBut, I think what's REALLY *#$$ing you off is the continuing complaints from a noisy, quite envious, and VERY small MINORITY who are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that there is a whole NEW realm of information available about Bessler's wheels of which they are TOTALLY IGNORANT. They also don't like the idea that I happen to currently have a sort of monopoly on the access to this vast new collection of clues. They wish I would just go away so that they would not have to cope with this irritating situation. However, they will eventually learn that eliminating the messenger does NOT in any way eliminate the VALIDITY of the message!
And this is the alleged "majority" that you want ME to "conform to" so that THEY will be "kept happy"? LOL! I can assure you that, if I leave this blog, they will then do absolutely NOTHING to further our knowledge of Bessler's wheels or to provide content that will attract INTELLIGENT traffic here. All they will provide is the same old inane "chatter", whether "eloquent" or not, that fills up the hard drives of so many other waste of time blogs and sites. But, then they would at least be comfortable again with the same "NO hope of success" status quo that has prevailed in this subject for the last 300 years! Afterall, it's all they've ever known. You may remember that, months ago, I was originally somewhat skeptical about even discussing the details of my research here and NOW I'm starting to realize how WELL founded my skepticism was!
As always, you need only say the word and I will be IMMEDIATELY gone. You need not bother with polls, etc. This is YOUR blog, not theirs or mine, and you should be able to restrict access to it.
I can also assure you that, should you wish me to leave, I will NOT be offended in any way. Nor will it in any way interfer with my ongoing research. That will continue as usual until I either find THE solution to the Bessler wheel mystery or reach an obstacle for which I can find no detour (that has never happened before!). Right now I believe that I am about ONE month away from THE solution which I was looking forward to announcing HERE as a tribute to your efforts to popularize the Bessler story and, of course, to the Master for the trials and tribulations that he had to endure to finally achieve the "Holy Grail of Mechanics": a WORKING OB PM gravity wheel. However, perhaps it does not really matter where the annunciation of the rediscovery takes place after all just as long as it DOES take place. IF I am successful, I will, of course, credit my success to Bessler and the VAST supply of clues he left us in the two DT portraits!
Well, I had some startling additional information that I uncovered only last night in the 2nd portrait which, to my surprise, COMPLETES the CORRECT interpretation of the "Tilted Protractor Clue" and indicates that it DOES show which octant of Bessler's drums was THE one in which weight to rim stop contact was taking place! Now, however, after reading your latest comment, I shall delay posting this information until I am ASSURED that I am STILL "welcome" here by YOU.
Reminds me a bit of Clifford (Martin Short) in the film of the same name! lol
ReplyDeleteTwo things that I would not have a problem with:
ReplyDeleteLetting Technoguy know that his contributions to this blog are no longer wanted.
Reinstatement of the CAPTCHA challenge-response.
- Mark
Happy new year, Mr Collins.
ReplyDeleteI've spent substantial time since 2004 in endevours to build the Wheel. I must have built at least 10 by now (all working of course ;-). 2013 looks set to see another build.
I'm delighted to hear that your stance is one of no-patent. My stance is a free-for-all.
My hope for you in 2013 is that your role of spreading the word in the hope that a solution is found, turns to one of spreading the word that humanity has a way forward for a cleaner, healthier, existance.
God bless you.
Zhyyra
THank you Zhyyra.
ReplyDeleteJC
It isn't really very wise to knock out a person this way..considering all the interesting contributions he has made so far...Sorry to intervene but I do agree with others that TG is unable to understand that very lengthy narrations aren't liked by the majority...it is indeed boring reading his part 1 & part 2...as far as I can make out, they don't mean a thing to me...and also, I feel it won't lead us to the solution either...thus..TG has really become unbearable to some..
ReplyDeleteI would like to say that we ask TG to abruptly stop his part 1, 2., etc., and resort to other general issues he used to indulge in earlier...
And, another thing is that, we should also totally ban usage of foul language by anons to silence someone with the stature of TG like personality..if TG leaves the blog may not be very interesting...but TG also needs to adhere to the main issues rather than blowing his own trumpet..he simply complicates things..I too have a feeling that TG is actually not on the right track...unless he has an open mind here he is never going to realize it...8 weights...it is ok..eight levers..still ok...chords...no way...
Finally, we should never forget that the internal mechanism of the wheel is extremely simple and that was why Bessler was so scared that someone may come to know it with just a single glance...Suresh
Thanks for the supportive comments, Suresh. You might like to know that it was the reading of YOUR comments several years ago (in which you kept addressing everyone as "Sir"!) that kept me lurking on this blog and, eventually, actively posting on it. I liked the way you kept insisting that Bessler's ONE-directional wheels only used 8 weighted levers and that they were "coordinated" so as the keep their CoM always located on the wheel's descending side. Your are 100% RIGHT about that! Unfortunately, you never seemed to get around to explaining HOW he achieved that amazing effect.
DeleteI certainly don't want to bore anyone IF I can help it (or BE bored by them!). Yet, OTOH, I don't like just giving short, "tweet-like" comments here which have next to zero NEW information content in them with regard to Bessler's wheels. I constantly struggle with this dilemma when writing ANYTHING here. I have been told privately that my research does NOT even belong here! That opinion seems ludicrous to me since this is SUPPOSED to be blog dedicated to the solving of the Bessler wheel mystery! So, I've tried to "settle" lately on comments that are more general and less mathematical in nature. But, even that approach does not satisfy some.
I'm now taking this blog on a day by day basis. Just as soon as JC states, IN WRITING here, that I am no longer "welcome", then I will cease commenting immediately. Until that day comes, I shall continue under the assumption that I AM still welcome here by JC who is really the ONLY person whose opinion counts as far as I am concerned about who should be commenting here or not. I have MUCH intriguing information about Bessler's wheels to share, but I will NOT do so in a tense climate of hostility that SOME are desperately trying to create here.
Once again, thanks for your supportive comments, Suresh, SIR!
John,i think that the good the bad and the ugly should stay on this blog, because nobody knows
ReplyDeletewho will be the next successful Orffyreus.
This is my personal opinion.
This is John Collins' blog and only he, as far as I am concerned, determines who is welcome to post comments. I have no problem with TG, certainly not as a person, although in terms of "mobilae" I have to admit that it is sometimes hard to follow what exactly he's working on. But that is more because we're trying to come up with a mental picture of what he's trying to convey. Pictures or animations would help.
ReplyDeleteBut none of that is his fault, since we all do basically the same: we don't share enough and should be working more closely together. But that's my (admittedly: subjective) opinion.
The pictures and animations will eventually come, but, first, I need to do a bit more testing on my 4:1 scale computer models of the Merseburg wheel's one-directional "sub wheel". I don't want to provide sketches for a design unless I am 100% sure that it is THE one that the Master found and used and that it actually WORKS.
DeleteTrust me Andre,i know this is John Collin's blog and i like John for many reasons, one of them is that he is incredibly unprejudiced.
DeletePART I:
ReplyDeleteWell, the recent flurry of TG supportive comments have put me into such a good mood, that I've decided to reveal the latest information I obtained concerning the "Tilted Protractor Clue" in the 2nd DT portrait.
As will be recalled, I had previously evaluated that clue and reached the conclusion that it was merely Bessler's way of mockingly telling the reverse engineering mobilist that weight to rim stop contact took place SOMEWHERE in the three drum octants from drum positions 1:30 to 6:00 and that he'd have to struggle to find out which one it was with much construction and testing.
How WRONG I was about the generosity of the Master! Further analysis shows that the "Tilted Protractor Clue" DOES specify in which octant the contact takes place!
From studying the protractor, it is obvious that a weight's contact with its rim stop (symbolized by the metal bar resting on the lamp's tripod "foot") takes place in the PROTRACTOR'S octant that sweeps from ITS 45 degree radius to its 90 degree radius. Which octant, however, on the DRUM that this corresponds to depends upon what drum position one assigns to the protractor's 90 degree radius. If one decides that protractor's radius represents the drum's 3:00 position, then contact takes place between the drum's 1:30 and 3:00 positions. If one decides that the protractor's 90 degree radius represents the drum's 4:30 position, then contact takes place between the drum's 3:00 and 4:30 positions. And, finally, if one decides that the 90 degree radius of the protractor represents the drum's 6:00 position, then that means contact took place between the drum's 4:30 to 6:00 positions.
My previous analysis could not determine which of these three drum octants was THE one in which the weights made contact with their rim stops. A new analysis, however, changes that view! Here's the way the complete interpretation of the "Tilted Protractor Clue" was finally obtained.
Locate the origin point of the protractor in the second DT portrait. Now, draw a straight vertical line from it downward and off of the portrait's frame and into the first line of text below the portrait. You will note that the line exactly touches the top point of the letter "g" in the word "Zeugs" on the first line of text.
PART II:
ReplyDeleteNotice that the "g" is emphasized by being bracketed within two flourishes that are above and below it. Bessler is calling our attention to this letter for some reason (this "g" is, BTW, the ONLY "g" found in the text portions of EITHER portrait). Now, move to the left a bit and you will notice that the two flourishes that bracketed the "g" have three external loops that bracket the letter "e" in the word "Zeugs". Here, Bessler is telling us that there is a CONNECTION between these two letters that is important. What could it be?
"G" is the 7th letter of the alphabet and "e" is the 5th. Also note that the top flourish above the letter "g" (which actually issues from the first letter, a "W", of the next word after "Zeugs") ends above the "e" in a tightly curled DOT. The numerological interpretation of this is that one must ADD the 7 and 5 values of the "g" and "e" together, but one must use 0.5 instead of 5 because that dot above the letter "e" is intended to be a DECIMAL point!
That gives us 7 + 0.5 = 7.5 which, in terms of clock dial TIME, corresponds to 7:30. Because the protractor's 135 degree radius ALSO lies on the extended vertical line that touches the "g" in the word "Zeugs", that means THAT radius is to be assigned a DRUM position of 7:30. When this is done, it then means that the protractor's 90 radius corresponds to the drum position 6:00 and that the weight to rim stop contacts were taking place in the drum octant from 4:30 to 6:00!!!
Needless to say, the sudden emergence of this detail that completes the interpretation of the "Tilted Protractor Clue" totally stunned me. IF it is correct as I believe it to be, then it means that the NEXT variation of the "right track" wheel design I will be testing, the one that requires weight to rim stop contact to take place between the drum's 3:00 and 4:30 positions should FAIL and that it will, finally, only be the LAST variation that I will test requiring contact between 4:30 and 6:00 which WILL be the one to succeed!
Of course, in order to do my "due diligence", I will STILL be testing the variation that has contact taking place in the 3:00 to 4:30 drum octant anyway. That testing should be underway in another day or so.
Looks like someone's been eating too much tuna fish again!
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