Having rejected the idea of using computer simulations just because I always believed that a hands on build was the only way to be successful in this enterprise, I’m now forced to admit that they do have a role to play, albeit at the end of an unsuccessful build. Wubbly’s sim of my design revealed a weakness which would have kept the wheel stationary.....perpetually!
Despite this setback I’m not discouraged. There are a number of separate elements which I think will be needed within a successful machine and I’ve already designed on paper a potential solution. I have been encouraged to take advantage of sims and I’m giving it some consideration. Unfortunately my favourite windows pc is becoming rather old and slow and I’m not sure if it could deal with any software which might be too complex. I do have an iMac but I’m still getting to grips with that but I’m sure it could handle anything. I think I’m the problem, not the computer!
I would not have known of this problem if not for wubbly’s swift sims, and if I hadn’t bitten the bullet and shared some of my design no sim could have been made, and I would still be stuck in perpetual stillness in my workshop! I’m so grateful, but it’s back to the workshop for now and possibly some sim education if the winter gets too cold for me to stay in there!
I’m certain that for some clues my interpretation is correct and they will be used in my new version of Bessler’s wheel, and they are as listed below.
Five mechanisms, five weights, ten levers, ten pulleys, five cords, connecting levers, ten pivots, numerous stops. The information I used was found in GB, AP, DT, and the Toys page in MT. It was graphic and textual.
I’ll be sharing more information in future but for now I need to test this latest design.
JC
Keep up the good work John.
ReplyDeleteI have to say..Until the last few months, I was under the expectation that you MUST be a master craftsman with a well stocked workshop full of precision tools and parts all specific to wheel building. I resorted to sims because I have very few tools, and the ones I have (for some reason) create contraptions that wobble and lock up for no apparent reason. Even my sim skills are a joke..A use a free version of Algodoo that creates contraptions that wobble and lock up for no apparent reason.
I know you are too busy for it now..but it would be GREAT if you hosted a Q&A discussion. Because of your dedication and research of Bessler and his work, there are SO MANY questions I would like to ask you. Some day in the future maybe.
Thank you anon, 19.24. I used to have a workshop such as you describe, but I moved house about four years ago and had to let most of tools and parts go. I now work from a small corner of severely truncated garage!
DeleteMy contraptions also wobble and have a tendency to lock, but I persevere because the end is worth the trouble.
Q and A discussion sounds fun, but probably not before I’ve finally, finally, finished my wheel!
JC
"Five mechanisms, five weights, ten levers, ten pulleys, five cords, connecting levers, ten pivots, numerous stops."
ReplyDeleteDo you mean "ten" weights?
No. JC
DeleteOnly 5 weights? 5 go on the red levers, but no weights for the blue levers. This is some serious rethinking. I think the SIM guys will need more details on how to build the model. I can't wait to see this.
DeleteI read on BW that the levers are weighted so maybe that accounts for all the weights. I guess we wait for more details.
DeleteFirst he had 10 weights and now he has 5. If you average the two you get (5+10)/2 = 15/2 = 7.5 weights. But you can then round that up to 8 weights.
DeleteMost likely John's final design will have 8 weights in it! Good thing too because then he'll finally be in sync with what about 9 out of 10 Bessler pm wheel chasers think Bessler actually used.
I have this weird feeling I can't shake that after JC finally gets serious about simming and starts mass producing them as he continues to chase Bessler's pm secret, he will, as anon 02:01 suggests, eventually decide that eight levers with weights is better than five. Next, he'll start interconnecting them with ropes to synchronize their motions during wheel rotation and attaching springs to them from the drum to support and counter balance them. Eventually, after over a thousand sims and several years from now, he will proudly announce that he's finally found his runner! To his and everyone else's utter amazement, it will look exactly like Ken B's wheel!
DeleteDon't laugh...far stranger things have happened.
If that ever happens then it's a good thing that he published his wheel design last year. That will give him historical priority to the rediscovery assuming that real wheels based on it actually work. Priorities on nonrunners are really just as worthless as they are.
Deletejason
Start working with a sim and you don't need a workshop. And if you find the solution split your design into components and farm them out to different professional engineering workshops to build for you. No one shop has the full picture if you are worried about secrecy. Then reassemble the parts in your igloo with your snowmobile tool kit and walrus grease if you have to.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately it sounds like you are right back to good old square one again and will be doing slow as molasses hands on builds once more. But at least you have acknowledged that not revealing your design earlier was a mistake that needlessly cost you months of wasted time and effort that could have been applied to chasing after some other hopefully successful wheel design.
ReplyDeleteHowever, your recent bad experience can serve as an example to others who are currently sniffing at the thought of simming. Sims definitely have an important role to play in pm wheel research. They can quickly tell one if he's headed in the wrong direction and save him weeks maybe months of wasted time and effort trying to determine that using hands on building.
Imo, you really need a copy of Working Model 2D. I use it regularly and it's probably the most user friendly one you'll ever find (as I recall, after only about three hours of playing around with it I was making my first nonrunning wheels to sim test). Because of its ease of use it's used in many engineering schools to introduce their students to computer modeling and simulation. But, unless you can find an older cracked version somewhere, you'll find the company that sells them, Design Simulation Technologies, trying to charge you as much as they can for it.
It's possible to run their WM2D program on a Mac or iMac, but you'll have to install another program, "Parallels Desktop for Mac", to do it (this allows all programs written for Windows to be run using Apple's OS). I think if you buy the license from DST to use WM2D, they will give you a free download of Parallels to go along with it. You might just be better off with an older cracked WM2D which could even be run on an ancient computer using Windows Explorer.
John wrote: "...I’m now forced to admit that they do have a role to play, albeit at the end of an unsuccessful build."
ReplyDeleteI think you'll eventually learn that you have that completely backwards! You need to sim FIRST and then build LAST and then ONLY if your sim is a runner. That approach, however, will reduce the number of hours you spend in the workshop down to zero until that magic day hopefully arrives and a glitch free working sim finally leads you to your first real runner!
Of course I imagine that there are many who still actually enjoy fiddling around in their workshops cutting, drilling, sawing, and assembling their various contraptions. When they only turn into more no runners for their collections, they can always put them out on their front lawns and try to sell them to passing tourists as handmade kinetic sculptures of some sort. Some people are willing to pay good money for items like that and the trickle of income can help fund a pm chaser's future builds.
Thanks guys. I’m going to get WM2D and learn how to use it on my windows computer.
DeleteJC
That sounds like a very positive development John. You won't regret it.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with the Anon's wise comments above, as you know I would.
But for the last comments, and like I did with my old workhorse wheel frame retired to my garden, they don't make great Kinetic Art Sculptures at first - more like Diskinetic Sculptures. Until you add some wind vanes so they can wave at you and amuse you. Theo Jansen would be proud, or not lol.
-f
Yep, it's like changing to an electric car. You never want to go back.
ReplyDeleteYear 1910:
DeleteDriver says "Damn my new gasoline engine car just conked out because its fuel tank is empty."
Nearby farmer says "Get yourself a carriage pulled by a strong horse!"
Year 2030:
Driver says "Damn my new electric car just conked out because its battery is completely dead."
Nearby farmer says "Get yourself a gasoline engine car with a full tank of gasoline!"
Year 2050:
Driver says "Damn my new flying car just crashed and it won't take off again."
Nearby farmer says "Get yourself an electric car with a fully charged battery!"
Nice anon 10:36! Being a Star Trek fan, I thought of this one to add:
DeleteYear 2150:
Driver says "Damn my matter teleporter just malfunctioned and I materialized fifty miles away from where I was supposed to."
Nearby farmer says "Get yourself a more reliable flying car!"
Sounds like farmers tend to be a little behind the times when it comes to new technologies! But no one complains as long as they keep those supermarket freezers and shelves filled of food.
DeleteWhile I'm sorry to see the "Bessler Collins' Gravity Wheel" so quickly turned into "The Collins' GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT Wheel of 2020" on the one hand, on the other hand, I'm also a bit annoyed with John Collins. Maybe it's time the loyal followers of this blog also started feeling a little sorry for THEMSELVES?
ReplyDeleteFor several YEARS on this blog John managed to keep many of his followers in a perpetual state of awe and anticipation with his "I know far more about Bessler's wheels than any of you and will soon have a runner" posturing. You'd almost swear he was doing an impersonation of Johann Bessler himself!
Finally, everyone started to almost have to beg him to share the secrets of Bessler's wheels that he claimed to have discovered like hungry little poodles sitting up and begging for some doggie treats. Then, only after it finally dawned on him that he was getting nowhere on his own, he realized he needed some outside help and grudgingly decided to "reveal all" by the end of this past September and even then he still jerked everyone around for a while longer by only first making a half disclosure until more begging was done.
This, imo, should be a learning experience for everyone here. John Collins, despite having been around forever and managing to keep this blog running for over a decade so far, knows absolutely NOTHING more about how Bessler's wheels worked than any of the rest of us do. There, I've now stated the obvious which many may have been hesitant to say out of respect for his past contributions to the study of Bessler's wheels.
There is some truth in your complaints, Anon 01:05, but I certainly don't think anyone here thinks John was deliberately misleading everyone. He did mislead to a degree, but that was only because he himself was misled by what he thought were clues he found in the Bessler wheel drawings and his interpretations of them. They may not have even been clues at all. This, unfortunately, can happen to anyone chasing after Bessler's wheel design.
DeleteBut, I think this incident has helped John finally realize how important simming is. When he seriously gets into simming this won't happen again. He'll know immediately if what he's got is for real or just another mirage caused by Bessler's many ambiguous clues if they are even clues at all. Life is just too short to waste any of it chasing after mirages.
I'm also disappointed by what just happened with his wheel, but I'm not really angry with John. He's had an unexpected emotional shock as a result and needs our sympathetic support more at this difficult time instead of condemnation.
I’m still confident about the clues and that they are real. But I don’t expect anyone to take my word for it, until I tell the whole story.
DeleteI never intended to mislead anyone but I can see how it looks in hind sight, I blame myself for being over optimistic and expressing my sincere belief that I was close to success way too soon.
Obviously I believe I have found the clues and think my interpretation of them is right. But despite the cleverness Bessler showed in trying to provide clues to the entire design without giving it away too easily, mistakes in understanding his meaning are bound to happen. I found it difficult to explain in words alone what I thought Bessler meant, even adding drawings did not provide the full picture. Now add the veil of secrecy, plus 300 years, plus a foreign language, plus extreme scepticism of the scientific world and errors and misunderstandings happen.
So for disappointing some of you with my failure to provide the answer, I apologise. But I still think I’m very close to it!
JC
"I’m still confident about the clues and that they are real. But I don’t expect anyone to take my word for it, until I tell the whole story."
DeleteHeck with the "whole story". Just show us a single, glitch free working sim. After that we'll believe in whatever you decide is a clue and whatever meaning you attach to it!
Cool blog, dude. Reminds me of a dude I read about, years back, who came claimed that his father came up with a perpetual motion wheel, and that he was trying to rediscover his father's invention. I think that his name might have been David Babb. Have you ever heard of that dude?
ReplyDeleteSorry Mark, I don’t know him.
DeleteJC
I also vaguely recall reading about him, Mark. He said that the machine wasn't a wheel but rather had marbles traveling down one part of it and turning a worm gear of some sort which then powered a nearby elevator that carried marbles from the bottom back up to the top where they landed on a tray and then reentered the worm gear again. The whole machine was housed inside of a wooden frame and was small enough to put on a table. He said that as a kid he and his siblings had fun playing with it and it would just seem to keep running forever when it was started by pouring half of the marbles into the top tray and putting the other half at the bottom. I think he said his father eventually took it apart and used some of its parts in something else he was building.
DeleteSims are so praised that I will ask if the solution has been found so far? And whether the designers of such computer programs have forward-looking "science omniscience." Sims are not a panacea for everything and can even be misleading. I think John knows this well, so he has the advantage of picking by hand. He's following Bessler's instructions.
DeleteThe simulation software does not anticipate all the yet undiscovered possibilities of gravity. Please don't forget that these programs are made by people for people based on the state of the art of science today. These programs evolve in line with this knowledge increase, not the other way around. I had to pour that bucket of cold water from the top and it got better.
I go get my towel and go back to my needlework.
Oui. John says it does not break any laws of physics vis-a-vis the sim will demonstrate it because it it based on those same laws, nest-ce pas.
Delete"Sims are so praised that I will ask if the solution has been found so far?"
DeleteKen B claims he has found "the" solution and he did so with a combination of dozens of previously unrecognized DT portrait clues and the making of about two thousand sims. However, so far he is the only one who claims his sims work. We need to see what others find when they try to sim his design. Of course, if someone uses his design to make a working wheel first, then independent verifying sims will no longer be necessary.
bonjour, effectivement en général, les simulateurs ne traitent pas de la gravitée et de l'accélération, j'ai utilisé le module de SolidWorks, cela a été un fiasco, je me contente d'Autocad pour vérifier mes idées.
Deleteje continue de fabriquer mes modules et j'attends la livraison des poids.
j'ai pu découvrir ce qu'il fallait modifier pour que cela fonctionne en construisant ma conception pour faire des essais, sinon je n'aurais jamais trouvé.
je vous tiens au courant pour la suite.
Cordialement,
Joel Boniface
English translation of the above French post:
DeleteHello,
Actually in general, the simulators do not deal with gravity and acceleration, I used the SolidWorks module, it was a fiasco, I just use Autocad to check my ideas.
I continue to manufacture my modules and I await delivery of the weights.
I was able to find out what needed to change to make it work by building my design to test, otherwise I never would have found.
I'll let you know for the future.
Regards,
Joel Boniface
Bruce Welsh is an electronics engineer with the open spirit which has been devoted to alternative energies for twenty years. It is convinced that one can build machines with on-unit.
ReplyDeleteHe had an uncle who liked to arrange, to invent. One day, old Bruce of seven or eight years, returned visit to the uncle who showed to the grandfather the new play that it had made for his children (it had six of them).
The play made in the sixty centimetres height for a base of thirty centimetres square. It consisted of a slope in spiral of three turns and half. At the bottom of the slope a paddle wheel, connected by some gears to an elevator was placed going up to the top of the play where a hopper furnished with ten balls was. An opening to rocker in the hopper made it possible to let pass, one by one the balls which went down the slope into three to five seconds.
The ball touched the paddle wheel what gave a small upswing which released another ball whereas the first was on the elevator and went towards the hopper. And so on.
There were five balls at the same time on the elevator and the once launched play did not stop any more. To begin, all the balls were to be in the hopper and Bruce remembers to be thundered by the uncle because it had touched the paddle wheel, thus stopping the play started again soon by the uncle. And, several hours after, the play always functioned.
Did the uncle know that it had violated the laws of physics?
Its descendants do not know any more what became this play, it is probable that the uncle in recovered the parts as it was its practice to rebuild another thing, unless it does not sleep yet in an old farm, in dust… They do not remember either to have seen other apparatuses functioning in an autonomous way, nor of engine on the play, but know that the play had stopped afterwards weeks and simply set out again after being cleaned.
Foot-note: the slope in spiral is indeed a vortex and it seems that in a certain way the vortices add energy, one unceasingly finds them in many ideas related to on-unit.
(KeelyNet source of the 14/12/97)
-f
Thanks for retrieving that for Mark, Fletcher. It's a challenge to read, but it seems to agree, more or less, with what anon 07:36 above tried to recall.
DeleteIt's basically a mechanical version of a recirculation mill with marbles or balls taking he place of water. Such machines will run continuously as long as the amount of mass moving from their top to bottom per second exceeds the amount of mass moving from their bottom to top per second. Unfortunately, that means the amount of mass being replaced at the top is always less than the amount being extracted from it and, eventually, there will be no mass left in the top and the device will stop running.
However, if the difference between the amount of mass dropping and the amount rising is small enough and the friction in the system is as low as possible, such a device might run for an impressively long period of time, maybe even several hours. But there will be little energy left over to do any outside work.
jason
That's very well put Jason. And my thoughts also. Basically the fuel tank is at the top. Even tho mass is lifted constantly the tank eventually runs dry because its running out faster than going in. And I think a bunch of young kids wouldn't necessarily understand this, and maybe not even adults if the tank contained a lot of marbles so it was hard to see the level drop in a short time.
Delete-f
John Collins wrote: October 2020 at 22:30
ReplyDelete"Thanks guys. I’m going to get WM2D and learn how to use it on my windows computer."
Try Algodoo. Much easier.
One of the most annoying features I found with Algodoo is that all of the measurements must be in metric units. Some may prefer to use the English units of measurement instead. Wm2d lets one use either units of measurement.
DeleteThe international standard for physics and science is metric units, not imperial units. Metric units were preferred because it gives a coherent system easy to follow, by everyone.
DeleteBut it's still nice to have a choice.
DeleteFWEIW I struggle with metric units-------------------------Sam
DeleteDecades ago the US was supposed to slowly and completely convert over to the metric system. But average people had an allergic reaction to it and decided to mostly stay with the more familiar English measures. The only thing we got out of that failed plan was putting the equivalent metric weight and volume units on food and medicine packaging and also those 2 liter soda pop bottles. At the gasoline pump we're still worried about the price per gallon we're paying. However, metric is used exclusively now in our school's science courses and that's why its used in the Algodoo program.
DeleteWe have to remember that the metric system was not devised until the end of the 18th century by the French (I guess it gave them something else to think about when they weren't slicing the heads off of their nobility!). However, Bessler did just fine using the pre-metric measures he had available to him.
John, the cornerstone of the wheel is the ability of a weight W falling from 4 feet to lift 4W more than 1 foot. Searching a different meaning of the straight-forward description of Bessler's is what can drive you in a wrong direction. That is possible with just 2 weights in a 1:4 ratio. Bessler said that if one can't do that (without a wheel, just a mechanism that does that) everything else will be in vain.
ReplyDeleteJohn Collins; stick to your guns! Simulations are only good after the fact! They have never invented anything---------------------Sam
ReplyDeleteOh ___ Au contraire Sam, my misguided frere
ReplyDeleteAA 20:35, You are right of coarse; what do I know-----------------Sam
DeleteAfter a decade or more of building lever wheels from Besslers drawings clues some simulations are over due.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, the simulations have not yet started.
DeleteDoes anyone know what has been simulated so far? Does anyone know what has been calculated. The worst part is that still nothing has been settled and he does simulations that don't explain anything. It is like a blind man over the precipice leading the other blind man.
It seems that even John will go this way and good Sam is called the lost brother.
I believe that only those found lost can rediscover Vis Viva.
It is still worth having a choice.
If the whole issue of the importance of sims and whether or not you should be using them is stressing you out, then watching this short video might help you relax a little and possibly even bring you some badly needed luck. It's rather soothing and achieving big things in life always requires a lot of luck.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKytCoA2Kjk
Anonymous 23:51
DeleteI want you to believe that my intention was not to offend you, but to express my opinion.
I don't remember having been unhappy lately, especially since I'm lucky and I'm making little progress. For 14 years I have not known what stress is. I always try to think soberly, especially since I am a sober alcoholic because I have a Master who guides the whole world. If you understand that, then I'm glad, if not, I'm sorry.
The search for pm can be a lonely one filled with constant frustrations. As one build after another fails one's depression can further deepen. The general public has accepted the message from the scientists that the search is a useless one only pursued by those ignorant of science. When one turns to others who are also searching he will rarely find any of them agreeing with his approach although the occasional one will wish him well. Words are cheap but better than nothing. One's family will often simply humor the pm seeker but regularly express displeasure that he is wasting so much time with his hobby rather than devote it to them. Such shaming can hit deep into the mind of the pm seeker and fill him with guilt and self doubt.
ReplyDeleteWhat keeps a pm seeker motivated in spite of the sea of negativity that surrounds him? It is the unshakeable belief that a single craftsman and inventor from the early eighteenth century, one Johann Ernst Elias Bessler, DID find something that worked and repeated his proof more than once as he enraged his critics and became a favorite target of their slander. He showed that despite all of the physics saying it can't be done, it CAN be done. The scientists do not like having their supreme authority challenged especially by any one they consider to be their intellectual inferior.
All pm seekers since the Bessler era have been like nearly blind men stumbling around in a pitch dark cave and tripping over debris on the floor while banging their heads on the rock walls. Their personal sufferings have been great. But up ahead they see a single small flicking flame of light...the Bessler success! We must all slowly and carefully make our ways toward that light because it really is our only hope.
Thank you anon. 21.29, for describing so eloquently the life of a pm seeker.
DeleteJC
AA 21:29 Sounds like more derision to me----------------------Sam
DeleteIt's not derision, Sam. He's telling it like it is. The life of a pm chaser is a rough one. Only the most persistent need apply.
Delete"like nearly blind men stumbling around in a pitch dark cave and tripping over debris on the floor while banging their heads on the rock walls."
DeleteOh yeah I've been stuck in that dark cold cave far longer than I ever wanted to be and still am. When you lack proper tools like me you're not only like a nearly blind man, you're like one who also has no legs and has to crawl about on his hands as he tries to escape the cave. But if Bessler could crawl out of it then it's possible for others to follow him.
AA 23:39 I'm not so sure; I've been taking it on the chin for a long time. These guys love rubbing it in------------------Sam
DeleteAnd that has been the lot of every PM seeker since then and now, including Bessler. He had a little extra help at the end, attributed to a dream from God. However, failing God's intervention today, we mortals have to nut it out for ourselves. Personally I don't think the DT portraits or wheel drawings hold any coherent clues of significance for Bessler's true mechanical PM. Bessler could not afford for someone to reverse engineer his invention from a public document before he had sold the rights, imo. I appreciate however that others do. I do think a trail of sorts exists in MT with the Toy's Page featuring heavily in a final solution, in an analogical way. I'm sure real mechanical clues are buried amongst many more esoteric clues in MT pointing to sacred geometry and masonic influences as Oystein makes the case for well. The connection and implication being imo that the same geometry is incorporated or represented in his true mechanical PM solution, and so it is 'indicative' of something important to his final solution. But you won't find a blue print to PM thumbing thru the pages.
ReplyDeleteA life lesson .. don't wait for, rely on, or put your faith in, someone else to make that breakthrough for you. We each have a brain, a set of hands, and the motivation to see it thru, or we wouldn't be here. One of us will succeed ! Good luck !
-f
"Personally I don't think the DT portraits or wheel drawings hold any coherent clues of significance for Bessler's true mechanical PM."
DeleteI felt the exact same way for a long time and was never really convinced by the various clues John provided on his websites. Then Ken's book came along and managed to finally change my opinion. He's found way too many new clues in both the wheel drawings and the two portraits for them to all just be coincidences and they all point to that exact wheel he shows in his video. I would urge you and others to check out what he's found. It's a real eye opener and makes one realize how little he actually knew about Bessler's wheels before he found out about Ken's research.
Don't waste your time. Ken's wheel is a joke! I wish you would stop promoting Ken's book here, this is John's blog.
ReplyDeleteLast October 7th you wrote on the Bessler wheel forum topic that discussed John's finally revealed wheel:
Delete"In my opinion, there isn't any clues in the wheel drawings and there isn't any clues in the portraits. Sorry John, just my opinion."
Yes, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But, it shows that you are already biased against any designs, such as the ones John and Ken have revealed, that are claimed to be based on various clues found in the wheel drawings and the DT portraits. So, imo, you can't really be objective about your appraisal of such a design. You automatically think it must be the result of delusions and worthless. I'm sure, however, that you don't feel that way about your own approach assuming that you actually have one.
The reality is now that the Bessler Collins' Gravity Wheel has been shown to be a nonrunner by someone (Wubbly that is) who certainly seems competent to make the sims that showed that, Ken's wheel is now the only one around that obviously keeps its center of gravity on the wheel's descending side as it rotates. No one has yet shown it to be a nonrunner either by actually building it or just simming it.
If you don't like Ken design, that's also your right. But, what wheel design can you offer us that looks as promising as the one he showed us in his youtube video? Have you published any completed designs of your own? Or do just get your ego trips by sitting back and criticizing everyone else's designs while confident that none of them will ever run and then prove that your wrong and biased opinions of them were a real joke?
Thank you jso, I was about to say that you saved me the job, but KB got in first! You all know my opinion of his clues and his wheel, but I cannot claim anything better at this point, even though I know that the clues I’ve identified are genuine.
DeleteJC
Clue denier types like JSO and others remind me of a blind guy who, just because he cannot see a sunrise, declares with certainty that the Sun does not exist! I think in most cases if clues are not immediately obvious to them, they won't even bother to try to dig down deeper to find any and then properly interpret them. That requires a lot of work and clue denying is much easier for them to do. Maybe that's the reason that their own pm efforts never go anywhere?
DeleteIf KB has actually found "dozens of new clues" in the drawings of the wheels and the DT portraits then he must have really dug down deep to find them. I tried analyzing the portraits years ago and got nowhere with my efforts. Hopefully everyone in the Bessler wheel community will eventually become aware of what KB claims he's found. Until then he will have to put up with the clue denying hecklers who really have nothing new of their own to show us. (Also really amazing how thankful JC is to JSO who actually considers him to be just as delusional as KB!)
I’m not a clue denier Ken, just a denier of your clues Ken. Even when you identify the item which you say is a clue, it isn’t, then you make up some amazing interpretation of its meaning with no believable explanation of how you reached that conclusion. Please stop posting here or I’ll have to delete all of your comments, and I don’t like to delete a ups thing here.
DeleteJC
John writes "I’m not a clue denier Ken, just a denier of your clues Ken."
DeleteI'm sure Ken would also deny most all of your clues are real becasue I notice clue believers tend to disagree a lot with each other.
When it comes to clues they are all really just guesses until and unless they produce a runner. I prefer a real build to confirm but I would accept a sim if most agree its accurate.
I think the clue deniers really aren't interested in the details of Bessler's wheels because they gave up on finding them long ago. They just want anything that works. Otoh clue believers I think are trying to find out exactly how Bessler's wheels worked. If Bessler did put real clues into his drawings (I think he did) then he would have made them very hard to find and that is what has helped to make all of the clue deniers today because they can't find them. The clue believers have to be like Sherlock Holmes investigating a crime in London. Much more work to do with confirming any suspected clues needing even more work. Most clue deniers won't be doing that kind of work. Easier to just say there are no clues. I think the clue blievers tend to be more into puzzle solving then the clue deniers.
Anon 22.44 "If Bessler did put real clues into his drawings (I think he did) then he would have made them very hard to find and that is what has helped to make all of the clue deniers today because they can't find them." And "I notice clue believers tend to disagree a lot with each other."
DeleteIs it all or nothing? What drawings do you think contain clues, in which publications? Some or all of them? Does it make you a clue denier if you leave one out?
It tends to be all or nothing. If one denies clues anywhere it gets easy to deny them everywhere. I'm not talking about the simple stuff like "my timbers are all solid" or "the wheel uses many weights" even though you see people still arguing over the translating of them. I'm talking about stuff like why the number 24 on the Merseburg drum lock turns into 42 or why Bessler put that divider on the globe and why we only see south pole of the globe.
DeleteI think there are many clues in all of the Bessler drawings and he did a ton of work putting them there for a real reason. Clue deniers saying they are not there won't make them go away just like the ostrich that sticks his head into a hole in the ground doesn't make the world go away. We need a lot more serious work on anything anyone thinks is a clue. This was done years ago but now all I see are sims and philosophies and no runners.
anon 22:44
There never were any "runners" lol. Just deluded people seeing shapes in clouds that Bessler blew their way. And the charlatans that made claims of "runners" but would never publish the details and verify them while hiding under the anonymity of the internet. Classic delusionists.
DeleteAnon 00:19 wrote: "...but now all I see are sims and philosophies and no runners."
DeleteTrue. Seems like interest in clues is fading out rapidly. Years of talking about them led nowhere. Today everyone only seems interested in finding working sims. If you can't find one of them then few will care what "clues" you think you see or what you think they mean.
jason
I'm afraid that all clues are like a snare, and should be avoided------------Sam
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of scientists and skeptics who think the entire subject of pm is a snare and should be avoided!
DeleteOne things for sure; it's impossible to tell any one any thing---------------Sam
DeleteI agree with you Sam. Perhaps not so much avoided from my perspective but taken with a large grain of salt, i.e. not relied upon or be sucked into, snared as you say.
DeleteTo Anon 15.30 above who muddies the waters and deflects. You lump all clues 'deniers' together. Yet jso and myself do not deny the likelihood of clues. I personally stated that I think it unlikely that substantial clues exist in the DT portraits and wheel drawings. And I gave my reason. MT however is a different story because it was not published.
And back to Sam .. I would go as far as to say that Bessler deliberately leads us astray with his DT drawings, which is the opposite of being helpful, and the opposite of what JC and KB believe is the case. Each of us is free to follow our own instincts.
And if either of their sleuthing directions results in a working wheel with a clear connection to those clues then more power to them and their insights. I'll happily concede I was wrong about that. And it doesn't stop me watching with interest JC pull his ideas together, develop them, with his eyes on the finish line.
-f
"And it doesn't stop me watching with interest JC pull his ideas together, develop them, with his eyes on the finish line."
DeleteLol! When I watch JC and others with their "eyes on the finish line" it reminds me of a bunch of little rabbits on a moving treadmill chasing after a carrot that dangles by a string just beyond their noses. They can all see the carrot and their little mouths are drooling to chew on it and taste it.
When they run faster to try to reach the carrot the treadmill automatically speeds up to keep them from it. When they tire and slow down a little the treadmill automatically slows down to keep that carrot from getting too far away from them. Each little rabbit is hoping that he will be the first to reach the carrot and then all of the other rabbits will admire and praise him which will make him a very happy little rabbit. They are all really in a no win situation but being rabbits are just too dumb to realize it.
Every once in a while one of the older rabbits finally drops dead and his lifeless little body is carried off the back end of the moving treadmill. Immediately another but younger rabbit is dropped onto the ever running treadmill to take his place chasing that carrot that always stays just out of reach.
The solution to their predicament is to just eliminate carrots from their diets but that never seems to occur to them. But then again that's understandable because after all they're just dumb little rabbits.
Won't you be surprised when one of those dumb little rabbits manages to jump off of the treadmill and pull it's power cord plug right out of the wall outlet. After the treadmill stops all of the rabbits are going to feast on that carrot!
DeleteHi Fletcher!! I think it's a mistake to lead a design with uncertain clues. It's far better to use your own inventive ability to try and find a way to make the wheel work, (whatever that might be), then; see if any clues might fit it; to see if you are on the right track. I.E., it's better if the clues lag your design----------------------------------Sam
DeleteFWEIW I'm fairly certain, (as certain as I can be), levers won't work, falling weights won't work, and shifting weights around the rim is very difficult if not impossible, Sam
There is an advantage to having grey hair afterall Sam. Very wise words !
Delete-f
@Sam
DeleteI think you have to find what you think is a clue and then guess what it means. Then you use that guess to shape and locate the parts in your sim wheel. Does that help your wheel keep its CoG on the descending side? If yes, fine move on to look for another clue and repeat the process. If no, guess what else your clue might mean and again use that to change your sim wheel's parts. Does it help keep the wheel's CoG on the descending side? If yes, move on to look for another clue and repeat the process. If no, guess what else your clue might mean and again use that to change your sim wheel.
However, after you made maybe a half dozen guesses that didn't help your wheel you've got to drop that "clue" you think you found and move on. You will have to keep doing his over and over and over again and hopefully as you continue your sim wheel will begin to get closer and closer to what Bessler had. When you've finally got it you will know it because it will be a runner. Neither you or anyone else will doubt you have got it.
The problem is that the parts inside of Bessler's wheels may have required many clues to describe their shapes and locations. Don't think all you need to do is find maybe a handful of clues and you are home free. No it may require a dozen or more clues and you had better be 100% right about all of them being clues and your interpretations of them. Don't be naive and think you can do this in only a few weeks or months. This requires years of continuous effort. Maybe only one in a thousand Bessler pm wheel chasers will have the fortitude to play this game with Bessler's hidden clues.
Bessler wasn't concerned about making the lives of future pm chasers of his wheels easy. He wanted to make sure that if anyone ever did rediscover his design he'd have to bust his b*lls doing it. He suffered a lot to find his runner and he made sure others in the future would also have to suffer just as much to find it.
AA 5:58, What can I say? I disagree. It seams to me you are using the clues as a crutch or short cut, as a quick way to the solution, which I'm afraid doesn't exist. But, it some thing that you have to make up your own mind about-----Sam
DeletePS Thanks Fletch
Follow up; you almost have to build the wheel first, to know what the clues mean----------------Sam
DeleteAnon 5.58 "He suffered a lot to find his runner and he made sure others in the future would also have to suffer just as much to find it."
DeleteHe made sure they suffer infinitely more, willingly. By spinning a delicate web to entice the hapless fly from which he couldn't escape.
"Follow up; you almost have to build the wheel first, to know what the clues mean----------------Sam"
DeleteAnd then only one or two will get a fist pumping A-hah! light bulb moment. As it dawns on you that they are generic and fit almost every wheel. 95% will be forever background noise. Then you'll think of all the time and mental energy you wasted with clues when you could have been in your workshop or simulation program. Grrrrr!
Sam said: "...you almost have to build the wheel first, to know what the clues mean"
DeleteI'm now working my way through Ken B's book on Bessler and that is exactly what he did. In chapter 2 he tells how he was sure the clues were in the two DT portraits but did not know exactly what they were, where they were, or what they meant. He just jumped in and started simming while giving different items in the portraits possible meanings. He then used those to guide the changes he kept making to his simmed wheels. He did this for years making about two thousand sim wheels until he finally zeroed in on the last clue he needed. One of the several guesses he made for its meaning resulted in a change to a sim wheel that suddenly turned it into a runner! He shows that sim wheel in his youtube video and also gives detailed instructions on how to build it in another chapter in his book. I wish I could try building it but I'm not much of a builder type.
The amount of work involved was incredible and only someone like him who was totally obsessed with finding a solution would be able to do it, imo. But he claims he has found the exact wheel design Bessler used.
Bessler Curious
Bollocks he has! It was a simple solution. Bessler was frightened a buyer would want their money back. Karl said it was simple. IT WAS SO SIMPLE that Bessler had to weave a fantastic tail in his published works like DT of apropos written and pictorial click bait around it, so that the likes of Wagner et al would be drawn away from clear headed simplicity, and into the overwhelming and murky world of deceptions, half truths, and gossip.
DeleteThis is Bessler using psychology, at its finest. He understood men, and the buttons to push.
Ken B is just another ***** who bought into the concocted story hook line and sinker. And subsequently spun one of his own, no doubt telling himself the ends justify the means.
I doubt that Ken concocted some fictional story and fake wheel as you seem to imply. He just documented what his research showed him was the solution. The question now is whether or not others will verify it's a real solution. So far, it certainly looks to me like it could be. It's also very simple. Just eight weights on levers, some cords, and some springs inside of a hollow drum. I think if this is what Bessler revealed to Count Karl, then he certainly would have described it later as "simple".
DeleteIt's so simple that not one person has simmed it. Not one person has built it. The sim specialists out there know immediately upon looking at the arrangement that it is a non-runner. Non-negotiable, no room for error.
DeleteIf it were so simple don't you think Ken B would have built it? Or formed a construction syndicate and advised the team if they encountered problems, financed them? He gave all sorts of excuses why he can't build it. I know why he can't build it. Because it can't be made to be a runner! It's a lame horse - period.
"The sim specialists out there know immediately upon looking at the arrangement that it is a non-runner."
DeleteI doubt if anyone can really tell if a low torque overbalanced type wheel design will work until it's been accurately simmed or competently built. No doubt others will eventually do that for Ken's wheel as the Bessler pm wheel chasers out there get more and more frustrated with their own continuing failed attempts.
Ken has provided them all with a quick route to final success which is based on information that Bessler himself provided in his hidden clues. The sim Ken used for his youtube wheel video is the only one I've ever seen that actually keeps the center of gravity of its weights on the descending side of the axle throughout an entire wheel rotation. That's a very good sign, imo.
The detailed plans he provides to build a wheel are for Bessler's 3 foot diameter prototype wheel which is shown in his youtube video. It's not meant to put out serious power. It's basically a tabletop toy wheel that can be used for demonstration purposes. It would probably cost much less than $100 to construct. But, its construction does require a person to have some tools for cutting wood pieces, drilling small holes, etc. as well as being able to follow Ken's simple instructions. He also provides in table form the data needed to make the parts for all of Bessler's larger wheels plus some illustrations of their much larger levers and how they were fitted into their drums. However, he only recommends their construction be attempted by very skilled craftsmen because of the time and labor that will be involved.
Keep talking it up Ken. What utter garbage!
Delete"However, he only recommends their construction be attempted by very skilled craftsmen because of the time and labor that will be involved."
His simple wheel could be simmed in hours and built in a week by a man moderately familiar with his garage tools, a protractor and square, and a local hardware store.
It does not work regardless of what KB shows on You Tube because it finds it position of balance and stops dead in its tracks - it is either hoaxed or incompetently tested.
If you are so keen on it why aren't you attempting to prove it is viable? Maybe you're not a "very skilled craftsman" for this SIMPLE wheel? That is so simple that it requires great craftmanship to become a runner?
Anon 10:27 I think you have confused what size wheel Ken recommends only for a skilled craftsman to construct. I don't think he was referring to Bessler's 3 foot diameter Gera prototype wheel but to the 12 foot diameter two directional ones like the Merseburg or Kassel wheels. They definitely won't be built in a week by only one or two people working on them part time.
DeleteIIRC Bessler wrote somewhere that he could just about finish one of them in six months time. I've never built a wheel more than 3 feet in diameter and I have a fairly well equipped wood shop. But I know my limits and I'd never try to build a 12 foot diameter wheel even if the distance between my cellar's floor and ceiling would allow it which it doesn't. Something that size needs to be constructed in an unused and preferably heated garage.
jason
You make it up as you go along Ken. Give it up and go home. Your clues are worthless, your wheel is, and will be, perpetually stationary. It’s far to complex, there are no sims other than your doctored one. Your book is 800 or so pages of hot air. Please don’t write again. UNLESS you sign in with your real name and stop using sock puppets to argue your case Ken,
Delete(sock puppet or sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception.)
JC
@ jason Think about this. His wheel is 3 foot diameter. It has ropes, springs, and polygons for levers. Polygons are notorious. He could have swapped them out for pinned rectangles. He made 2000 sims until he got just one to be a runner he says. In that time he adjusted elasticity, friction coefficients, charge, spring constant values, accuracy settings and other sensitive parameters and variables. But only one was a runner! Which he would have immediately saved and copied before making any other changes in case it didn't work again with just one minor change. He always had the original saved. Does that sound like a reliable and trusted runner?
DeleteBessler said it took him about 6 months to build a wheel. Probably the larger two directional variety. He said a skilled craftsman could build it in 1 month. Bessler built his first small runner in 1712. He displayed another small wheel publicly in October 1713 and again in 1715. In that time he would have been looking to iron out any potential durability problems with it and increase its power and reliability. Would it take you weeks or months to build a 3 foot one directional wheel in your garage? When a skilled craftsman could build a two directional 12 foot wheel in 1 month. I'd allow 1 month for KB's wheel. 1 week to build, 3 weeks to test and adjust and admire. The rest of my life in exasperation and blaming myself, tuning and tinkering, trying to look beyond the obvious why it isn't a runner.
JC wrote to someone he thinks is KB's sock puppet: "Your clues are worthless, your wheel is, and will be, perpetually stationary. It’s far to complex..."
DeleteLol! For a second there I thought JC was describing his OWN recently 100% failed "Bessler Collins Gravity Wheel"! His comment looks like just more desperate projection from a totally frustrated Bessler pm wheel chaser.
I'm thinking that his recently failed wheel should more accurately be named the "Collins Five Lever Overbalanced Perpetual Wheel" or, for short, the "Collins FLOP wheel". Pun intended! Lol!
I think he's actually burning with envy that someone else, KB apparently, managed to find a runner while he, JC, has not and probably never will. In any race there will be winners and losers. It's starting look like he will be losing this race. I think the time is soon coming when we will finally see JC "Give it up and go home" especially now that he has no secret wheel design left to keep everyone here hypnotized with. That might even happen before the end of this year as he ends this blog and fades off into the sunset only to heard from occasionally over on bwf.
hmmmm ..... KB studied numerology. What a coincidence, so does SoS.
DeleteI think that John is probably experiencing some depression mixed with anger now because of the failure of his recently revealed wheel. He had been working on it for years. Unfortunately, such experiences are all part of being a pm chaser and we've all been there many times in the past. Now with simming that can produce fast results one does not have to put too much of an emotional or time investment into any one design. Then if (or should I say most likely when!) it fails it's not that big a deal. Yes, it's annoying, but not nearly as much as if you spent days, weeks, months, or even years working on something and it all went down the drain with a single test. Many pm chasers actually fear such a test and will put it off as long as possible before they do it.
DeleteAfter a big failure like John recently experienced, imo, it's important to just lay back for a while and let your mind heal up. Try not to immediately think of some quick little ways to fix your wheel up to make it a runner. Wounds need time to heal and if you keep picking at them they won't heal completely. There's nothing wrong with taking occasional vacations from pm chasing. Then when one finally returns again he will do so with a fresh mind and body and able to see things with a new perspective. That's when fresh new approaches can come to mind that might finally result in success.
Anon.20.10 is clearly KB, his wordy style and his continual comments, logical but purely speculative, confirm it.
DeleteAnon.00.51, is a troll and best ignored.
Anon O7.02, I’m not in the slightest depressed nor angry. No one who is involved in this research would get depressed at the latest failure, which goes with the territory. I’m so grateful for wubbly's sim which showed the consequences of cf on my particular design, I am working on a variation which I hope will produce a positive result.
Despite my willingness to take the simming route, I still prefer to build. I have looked into the software suggested but I remain unconvinced that it is right for me, not just for proving a design, but it would take up too much time learning how to use it, and my pc would probably expire!
I’m busy removing an old fitted wardrobe, and building a new one in another room, consequently my garage/workshop is littered with old carcasses from the demolished wardrobe and the wheel is inaccessible, but things will return to normal in a few days and I can get back to my new design.
JC
I agree that anon 00:51 is a troll who really enjoys pointing out and mocking all of your failings. He's probably got a very frustrating off line personal life and mocking others on the internet is his only way to feel good. He is to be pitied and, as you said, best ignored.
DeleteBut I doubt that 20:10 is KB. I found his style difficult to read and follow and KB's posts in the past tended to be more precise and clearly expressed.
jason
I'm not Anon.20. 10 He uses half the word count per sentence then me and disses my sim.
DeleteKen B .. opps
I don't know if Ken B's version of Bessler's wheels is right or not. I've seen his youtube video of it and it looks good but the torque looks very low. However Bessler did say that first little wheel he made could barely turn itself.
DeleteI agree with others here that Ken's wheel needs to be simmed by others because he might have been made delusional by bad sims he was making that fooled him into thinking they were genuine runners when they really weren't. It's happened to me several times and that was with hands on builds I was doing. When I tested them for only a half turn they would pick up speed and I'd be convinced I finally had it. But they were never able to complete a full rotation if they were started from a standstill.
I heard about his book and am interested. I found this promotional video he made for it on youtube. I think he actually narrated it himself. Sounds like he did it without reading off a script. His book looks like it could compete with the Bible for size and weight! If I get it I'll go with the download which will be cheaper. Here's the link to his youtube book video I found:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5q_hbikVYA
John, Where is Karl's sworn testimony ; what page in Das Triumph? Thanks !
ReplyDeleteHaven’t you got a copy of my DT? It has full English translation at the end. Sorry I can’t look just now, too busy, too tired.
DeleteJC
This page gives part of Karl's certificate to Bessler and some other letters written about Bessler.
Deletehttp://orffyre.tripod.com/id28.html#_Certificate_from_Landgrave,
Also, Have you been able to make use of the dual blacksmiths toy movement in M.T. 138? Again,Thanks!
ReplyDeleteYes, I’ve used all of the Toys page.
DeleteJC
Yes, all the drawings in the Toys page are of use and intended to be so.
DeleteJC
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DeleteStephen, the page numbers on the bottom of the Toys page are numbered 138, 139, 140 and141. that is from the original and that us what is on mine.
DeleteI have no idea what you are talking about with reference to the two hand drawn pages. All I can say is what I said before, the pages of MT were not bound properly at one point and doubtless several pages were out of the intended order. If that isn’t what you mean then you’ll have to go into more detail about what you are complaining about.
As for your last two sentences, I don’t recognise any of my actions or intentions in your accusations, all I see is an angry person spouting garbage for no discernible reason.
JC
SG wrote: "The truth is you have found a Perpetual way of controlling how people think of this investigation into truth."
DeleteIf that's the case, then he hasn't been very effective at doing it. Most reject his five mech wheel design. When it comes to Bessler wheel research everyone is doing his own thing and hoping he gets lucky...John included. But years ago he got off his duff, did a lot of traveling around Europe, collected what German language Bessler literature he could, and then paid out of his own pocket to have English translations made of it. What have you done to contribute to Bessler wheel research? Without his efforts guys like you, SG, wouldn't have anything to weave conspiracy theories out of. Instead of accusing him of nefarious things that you really have no proof of, you should be thanking him for the efforts he's made.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteSheesh SG .. can't you ever say anything straight ?
DeleteJohn's numbering (and hence placement) in his reproduction of MT is in order of the bottom hand written numbering system. Others think that is B's. handwriting. Maybe the top numbering too. Consequently the float balance wheel and the Roberval don't have bottom numbers, so are at the back after the last bottom numbering of the Toy Page 138-141.
At the top is another numbering system and the float balance wheel and Roberval are numbered 555v and 556v respectively. They would come before the Toy's Page top numbered 558 with MT137 (557) before them also. However there is already a 555 and a 556 being MT's 135 & 136.
Where and what order do you think the original folio's had ? And where does 555v and 556v belong according to you ?
Why is 558 (Toy's Page) superimposed on that page ? It looks clearly written in there to me ?
Why are there two 555 and 556's ? What is the significance of that ?
I think it is fair to say that the last few pages could be rearranged according to what numbering system you thought most relevant. Obviously more than one attempt was made by someone to number the pages. Why are they different if both done by Bessler ?
Any person studying MT will have noted the numbering system differences !
N.B. both drawings 555v and 556v are hand drawn, as is the addition of the spinning top toy in the Toy's Page. Is that hand drawing connection significant ?
-f
It's also possible, imo, that, other than the four pages Bessler removed and destroyed after he was arrested that revealed the details of his final working wheel's mechanics, there could have been several other pm machine drawings he made for his book that somehow got lost after his death and that we will never see. We all tend to assume that MT is complete as we now have it, but that might not be the case.
DeleteJohn wrote: "I’m certain that for some clues my interpretation is correct and they will be used in my new version of Bessler’s wheel..."
ReplyDeleteWe now all eagerly await the arrival of the "Bessler Collins' Gravity Wheel Version 2.0". Hopefully it will do a lot better than the previous version 1.0 did.
I hope John starts getting serious about simming because if he doesn't then his next wheel could become the "Collins' Great Disappointment Wheel Version 2.0"!
DeleteLes forgerons et les mineurs chevauchent le dragon pour leur travail, à la fin de leur journée de travail ils vont se reposer et le dragon rentre dans sa tanière.
DeleteLe dragon porte en lui la flamme éternelle.
Dieu est l'Alpha qui dirige la roue.
Tel est mon assemblage.
Joel Boniface
Here's a quick translation of Joel's reply into English:
Delete"The blacksmiths and miners ride the dragon for their work, at the end of their working day they go to rest and the dragon returns to its lair.
The dragon carries the eternal flame within him.
God is the Alpha who runs the wheel. Such is my assembly.
Joel Boniface"
?????? Anyone got any ideas what that means?
John is the dragon, the miners & blacksmiths are the sceptics.
DeleteThe sceptics are on John's back all the time, deriding him.
But, at the end of the day, the sceptics have achieved nothing, while John carries on with the quest to solve Bessler's Wheel.
STEVO
Wow! He must be some sort of shape shifting being. Last year he was an old leopard and this year he's a dragon with an eternal flame inside of him. Makes you wonder what he'll morph into next year?! Lol!
DeleteWith the COVID-19 pandemic on the rise in Europe and the UK again let's all hope and pray John doesn't morph into a ghost next year!
DeleteMake sure you wear your mask when out in public, John, avoid large crowds, and sanitize those hands before reentering your home. This pandemic is nowhere near over yet and might get a lot worse as the regular seasonal flu starts infecting people. You can get both flu and COVID-19 at the same time!
Those politicians trying to downplay the danger of the virus so they can get their capitalist economies back to normal again and making the rich richer keep telling everyone that corona virus only kills, ON AVERAGE, one or two in a hundred who get infected which makes it not sound too bad. What they aren't telling everyone is that if a person is over about 60 years old and gets infected he actually has a one in five chance of dying from it even if he is treated! IOW's it's 10 to 20 times as lethal for a senior citizen!
Consider this a mini Update.
Anonymous and PROUD of it!
Thanks AAPOI, sound advice. Actually I think my wife and I caught COVID-19 back in February, we had already had flu just before Christmas and decided to get the flu jab belatedly, but we then caught the worst flu I’ve ever had, we both lost weight - I lost over. stone, which to be fair, I needed to do! - and we were out of action for about four weeks. After effects keep affecting us but nothing we can’t cope with. My wife has had to have radiotherapy which was delayed due to lockdown but we are both in reasonable shape now. So everything is looking good.
DeleteJC
Thanks John; Yes, I have D.T. and study it most every weekend ! Thanks much for publishing D.T. ;it is a great source for inspiration and encouragement!!
ReplyDeleteBRAVO Anon.14 Oct.01:04 I just read in Das Triumph.where Mr. Bessler says that it is the very simplicity in his design that keeps it well-hidden! WOW!
ReplyDeleteFrom DT Pages 209 & 210
DeleteAnd in truth it now seems to me that the time is long overdue, now that I have achieved my goal, once known only to God, that I and the world should see this principle,
in itself so simple, and yet at the same time so deeply hidden,
of everlasting motion, described in total detail and in mathematical simplicity, in praise of God’s boundless wisdom, and for the benefit of the entire world.
RAFORD wrote: "... Mr. Bessler says that it is the very simplicity in his design that keeps it well-hidden! WOW!"
DeleteBut what Bessler actually wrote was:
"... this principle, in itself so simple, and yet at the same time so deeply hidden..."
I don't think Bessler was saying that the principle of his wheels was well hidden BECAUSE it was so simple. He was just saying that the principle was so simple and because of that it seemed odd that no one had discovered it prior to him. He's not really saying that the principle was not previously discovered because it was so simple.
Just my two cents. This makes me wonder, IF it was really so simple, WHY didn't anyone prior to Bessler discover it? Well maybe they did and even many times over the millennia but their discoveries all just got lost. When Bessler stumbled upon the so simple principle things like the making of paper, the printing of books, etc. allowed his later discovery of the principle to be recorded and preserved while the discoveries of the earlier inventors were not. I don't think anyone can say with certainty that Bessler was the actual first human to discover the principle. But as far as our history books are concerned, Bessler is officially considered to be the original discoverer.
Maybe some day some archaeologist will be exploring a newly found cave in some remote land and he'll find paintings on the walls of various pm wheels that are tens of thousands of years old. Maybe they will finally show us what those missing four drawings from the end of MT were supposed to look like!
You make a fair point anon. 11.09. I discussed such a theory in my first book about Bessler, “Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?”, I looked at both prehistoric cave drawings and old symbols such as the yin yang and the swastika, but I did not find anything which looked like a potential design for a pm wheel, but thst was back in 1987! There may be much more scope to find such a design now.
DeleteJC
RARFORD 15:00, It maybe that Bessler is eluding to the fact that great simplicity is difficult to imagine, for some unexplainable reason----------------Sam
DeleteIrony : It is easy to imagine the complex. I do it many times every day. Great simplicity is much harder and takes far longer, for it requires clarity of thinking and minimal detail, all missing from the former.
Delete-f
Yes, Bessler had a negative view about making one's pm wheel designs overly complicated. Note what he says in AP about it (see page 295 of Collins' translated version):
Delete"He can rack his brains and work his fingers to the bones with all sorts of ingenious ideas about adding extra weights here and there. The only result would be that his wheel will get heavier and heavier - it would run longer if it were empty!"
So simplicity seems to be the way to go. Unfortunately, what one person considers "simple" another may consider "complicated" and vice versa.
How can it be simple? Every imaginable simple design has been tried since Bessler and nothing works. It also can't be complicated because Bessler said not to do that and also Count Karl said several times it was simple. I don't know what to think about this except I know it wasn't a hoax. Was JC's recent wheel simple or complicated? I think if we asked a hundred different people we'd get a hundred different opinions about how simple or complicated it was.
DeleteJohn wrote "I looked at both prehistoric cave drawings and old symbols such as the yin yang and the swastika, but I did not find anything which looked like a potential design for a pm wheel..."
DeleteI found this 2,000 year old rock painting made by the Chumash Indians who lived for 14,000 years in southern California. The experts say it shows a small child, a larger adult, and a circle symbol for the Sun. But look at that "Sun". It has eight spokes and is clearly some sort of wheel with a center axle. Maybe it was an early pm wheel?
The adult figure has his hands raised as though he is surprised. Maybe he was having a "Eureka" moment as he realized that his pm wheel was finally working? The child has his hands on his hips as though expressing doubt that it would work.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/ChildAdultSun.jpg
jason
Interesting photo, Jason. The north American Indians did not use the wheel for transportation, so why would that wheel in the photo have eight spokes in it which would have been needed if the wheel was intended to support a load of some sort. I think those "spokes" are really used to divide the wheel into eight compartments. Maybe each had a pm mechanism in it?
DeleteDoubtless the archaeologists would have some spiritual explanation but it’s anyone’s guess what it represents, but it’s always interesting to see these really ancient depictions and speculate on their purpose.
DeleteJC
BRAVO Anon. 14 Oct.03:31 !! John's sterling quality seen at this time is in his EQUANIMITY, his composure and equilibrium in spite of the buffeting by the ungrateful. Thanks John for your example!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Stephen, yes I have figured it out but I have feeling my understanding will be different to yours?
DeleteJC
Won't it just. Don't expect Steven to explain himself! He just helicopters in to give you some Godly advice, details only known to him.
DeleteThis is one of SG's standard tricks which he's used here in the past. He will ask a poster if he understands the meaning of some symbol. The poster then naively gives him an answer. SG then says "WRONG!" and adds that the poster is obviously nowhere near knowing the real secrets of Bessler's wheels like SG does.
DeleteSG then gets his quick ego trip and disappears until he springs up on a later blog to play his little game again. At no time does he ever give anyone any real information. That's because he knows if he does they will laugh him off the blog and he won't be able to use it again.
As someone once said "It's better to remain silent and be thought to be a fool, then to speak and remove all doubt". He can't reveal anything or it will remove all doubt that he is in fact a fool. But don't just totally ignore him. He apparently has an emotion need to play his little game from time to time. Maybe it makes him feel superior because he's convinced himself he actually does have superior knowledge about Bessler's wheels. In real life he's probably a somewhat powerless and dependent person. They tend to be attracted to subjects which are still largely mysterious so they can play the role of a guru with higher knowledge of them.
In a sense, JC also played this game on this blog for years using that last wheel he was working on. But he eventually found the emotional strength to face reality depressing as it turned out to be. Will SG ever face reality? Probably not because he's enjoying his delusions and game playing too much at this time. So, SG, keep having your fun but don't think for a second that anyone here is taking you the least bit seriously.
@ Anon.15 Oct.11:09 : Its likely that the Chinese army did use that principle in the time of Gen. Chuko Liang, 2nd Century A.D. His "wooden ox" was a supply transport vehicle that needed to be guided but not pushed and was used to carry food and weapons ,etc. to the army in the field.
ReplyDeleteActually it is a single center wheeled wheelbarrow that is still used extensively today for transporting goods in rural areas. It is easy to maneuver and takes less energy to move around compared to a standard western wheelbarrow because the wheel is directly beneath the load supporting it. A standard wheelbarrow you have to hold up the weight.
ReplyDeleteGood points Fletcher, When Bessler's principle is found, it will drive all technology in the direction of MASSIVE simplification, the path never taken. Think of how simple cars were in the 1950's. The French Citron,seen driven by Chief Inspector of Pink Panther fame used a knob to raise and lower the windows and it DID THE JOB! Cars in the 1950's were fixable by the driver and so uncluttered in the engine compartment! Bessler's gift must,will, completely transform general problem- solving!
ReplyDelete@ Anon.20:04 The images of old Chinese wheelbarrows show wheels about 5 feet in diameter ! This wheel is the vestigial remains of General Liang's self-mover, the internal drive long lost in history. Could not rocks be used for weights and bamboo serve as springs and levers? The Chinese solutions are so often very simple, counter intuitive to Western "thought".
ReplyDeleteHere's an image of one of those ancient Chinese wheelbarrows:
Deletehttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Qingming_Festival_Detail_7.jpg?1602867491096
They needed people in front and back to balance the load on the large center wheel and also required ropes to animals to pull them uphill. There were no "internal drives" in them because the interior space above the wheel axle was filled with cargo.