Instead of trying to understand gravity, I suggest we put the term to one side and instead, look at its effect, and the simple fact that a thing which has mass and is 'heavy', falls or drops, (due to the effect of gravity on it).
When the weights are pulled downwards by the attraction between the weight and the earth, that attraction is gravity. Gravity is the effect which appears to give 'weight' to objects of mass. The 'weight' or 'heaviness' of an object is what makes it fall.
Bessler said that "these weights are themselves the PM device, the ‘essential constituent parts’ which must of necessity continue to exercise their motive force (derived from the PM principle) indefinitely – so long as they keep away from the centre of gravity". It seems perfectly logical, therefore, to assume that the weights were supplying the energy which turned the wheel - something all perpetual motionists have instinctively known for hundreds of years. The movement of the weights was due to the effect of gravity.
According to wikipedia, "In physics, a force is any influence that causes an object to undergo a certain change, either concerning its movement, direction, or geometrical construction." Now you may have been told that gravity is not a force - but according to the above well-established principle.....it is! Anything that falls downwards due to an influence that causes an object to undergo a certain change, ...concerning its movement, direction, is a force!
Wikipedia continues, "In other words, a force is that which can cause an object with mass to change its velocity (which includes to begin moving from a state of rest).." If that doesn't describe the action of a weight being dropped from my hand then I don't know what does.
Anything which is moved by an external influence, (such as gravity), can have its resulting action modified by another influence. That 'other' influence can, under particular circumstances, also be attributed to gravity.
Bessler said his weights operated in pairs. So if a weight falls and in doing so, moves another weight, the second one can overbalance a wheel.
Bessler said his weights operated in pairs. So if a weight falls and in doing so, moves another weight, the second one can overbalance a wheel.
Again this is the principle I outlined at my website at www.besslerswheel.com
(The title is taken from my poem at www.free-energy.co.uk/html/my_poem.html )
(The title is taken from my poem at www.free-energy.co.uk/html/my_poem.html )
JC
If there is one thing about Bessler's Wheel that is even harder to understand than " gravity as energy "
ReplyDeleteit is the fact that the wheel reversed entropy . It was a very very special machine and the people who ( had the chance and ) didn't buy it must have been not only crazy but greedy as well . It is foolish for man to presume that he can prove something with mathematics such as the impossibility of perpetual motion because math cannot model reality other than on a superficial level .
CW
"Gravity is constant and it makes things drop", I must agree +100%.
ReplyDeleteThe work produced by a weight falling it is the same work needed to rise it again to its initial height. It doesn't matter if its path is a straight line or not (both going up or down) it will take or produce the same amount of work, so a simple (or complex) wheel driven just by gravity is not possible.
In order to make a wheel turn by itself the involved forces must be recognizable and must explain why it will make turn the thing.
In a gravity wheel the forces are recognized and unfortunatelly they neutralize each other.
Charly2
Charly2 said:
Delete"The work produced by a weight falling it is the same work needed to rise it again to its initial height" and "In a gravity wheel the forces are recognized and unfortunatelly they neutralize each other". I agree. The energy gained by a weight shifting design such as MT9 is equal to the energy required to reset the weights to keep the wheel turning. Assuming no friction, the wheel would spin forever, but it would have no additional energy to perform work. If you add additional energy to the spinning wheel, you would get the same energy out, so why go thru all the trouble? Maybe the weight shifter designs were placed in MT, like the sphere designs, to show what does not work. Or just maybe there is another application.
Gravity is designated 'g' which is an acceleration ('a') i.e. 'g' = 'a'. Since 'g' is an acceleration in a direction then a mass under its influence and free to move moves within a field or potential or gradient caused by the 'g' field.
ReplyDeleteForce = mass x acceleration => Force = m.a. = m.g.
A Force pushes or pulls something.
A Force must have two essential elements, a mass and an acceleration present. BUT gravity is an acceleration 'g' so it is not a Force by itself until the mass is introduced to the field. Then you have Weight Force of the mass which is dependent on the 'g' field strength. Thus Weight Force and 'gm' is less on the moon compared to the earth's 'ge' surface although the mass is the same for both examples.
When displacement/distance 'd' is coupled with 'F = m x a' we get units of energy or capacity to do Work.
So, gravity is not a Force, it is an unrequited acceleration until a mass enters the field when Weight Force is manifest by the combination of both the essential elements.
Concise and accurate way of explaining Anon 26 February 2013 19:56.
DeleteGravity is an acceleration field. It exists whether mass is present or not. Introduce mass into the field and you get force.
FORCE = MASS x ACCELERATION
Yes the introduction of mass into the gravitational field generates force as in Bessler's wheel.
DeleteInitially I had included a discussion on the meanings of 'influence' and how it might fit in with our search but it became too wordy and I awaited a response such as yours anon. Thank you.
JC
Report back,..Just so as you know there are men out there who are actively building Bessler gravity wheels.
ReplyDeleteI am about to test a wheel which I consider to be the ultimate of my designs.
If this wheel does not turn then nothing will.
It uses down to earth mechanical physics but it does use a clever mechanism to reverse the polarity of a spring.
I think I have explored all the options and there is nothing left so hold thumbs!
Good luck Trevor. I must disagree with you on your statement that you have explored all the options. I say this so you won't give up prematurely.
DeleteGood luck Trevor,
DeleteI wish I had some time for model making.
John, sorry to harp on about extended,weighted arms on lazy tongs, but if you think about them, on one side of a wheel they would be pulled down from underneath,contracting the tongs, and on the other side they would also be pulled down, but from on top,extending the arm. Both weights working together in a push/pull arrangement, which would move the rim to one side. This way, opposite weights would still be more or less in balance, and one would not have to lift the other, the off centre rim does the turning, all the 8(?) weights pushing/pulling in unison surely must apply enough force to move the rim sideways a fraction ?
Gravity acting downwards on the weights all the time, is this not the theme of this current post ?
Stephen Burke
Trevor,
DeleteGood luck with your latest build. If it doesn't work out, I'd still be interested to hear more about your reverse polarity springs.
-Ed
Good luck from me too, Trvor, and I must also agree that you cannot have explored all the options. Fingers croosed for you.
DeleteJC
Stephen I agree with you. How do you know I am not making use of those features in my own design. :)
DeleteJC
John, anyone can use the idea, let's get this thing done !
DeleteThat's why I had a nutty half hour to attract people's attention to it.
Using Ockham's Razor, and looking at the two most prominent clues from each source,
it's not hard to come up with a simple design.
A spoked wheel, and a lazy tong/ pantograph.
A wheel with an unusual rim, and a design that is meant to move sideways.
Extended letter S's around a rim, R's around a rim, these would be the spring steel spokes of the wheel, as coil springs weren't around then, and would support the rim,
but allow sideways movement.
X's and bars, the tong X's, and their extension.
The two folded wheel drawings, the one doing work, the other with a pendulum,
The one working wouldn't need regulating, but the one just turning would need to be regulated to stop centrifugal force from throwing the weights outward.
Since I don't have time for model making, go for it !
Stephen Burke
Quite a few physicists agree that gravity -already characterized as the least precise of all the fundamental physical constants- might not even be a constant at all. Even the New Scientist (not a exactly a publication for deluded souls) published articles to that effect as early as 2009. Many experiments since corroborate that. Another amazing effect seems to be that the effects of gravity are many times faster than c, another supposed constant, the speed of light.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that we know -understand- very little about the nature of gravity. In space, even at Lagrange points where gravity is completely absent, an object may be weightless, but it still shows the full effects of its mass including inertia.
I doubt if old fox Bessler was aware of any of this, but he may have stumbled onto something, spin effects, and/or oscillation. But if we accept that the man and his invention was genuine, we must also accept that we are overlooking something. Something, possibly, incredibly obvious 'where all others have looked'.
Thanks Andre, well put. It simply is more fun to see Bessler as genuine and then figure out what he might have done. There is actually no such thing as proof of impossibility - just find a counter example and everyone starts explaining how obvious it is and they always knew it... (e.g. flight or shape of the earth). If you have a wheel with moveable masses attached to the spokes, you can slide the masses when they are in horizontal position - which does not consume energy (except for small amount of friction). This however increases torque, which cannot escape out of the system. Do this properly to get a decent resonant amplitude and you get a self-runner which can output the excess energy.
DeleteI read something to that effect Andre, a while ago, but I'd forgotten, so thanks for the reminder.
DeleteAt that time I also read a dubious theory about the fact that the Earth gets heavier each year with several tons of dust and micrometeorites and big rocks impacting Earth, this debris adds up to 40,000 metric tons extra mass each year. I think the theory suggested that this extra mass might introduce a variable in the gravitational effect felt on the earth, but somehow I doubt it! I think it adds up to about 100 tons per day.
JC
John,..I mentioned in a post that 50,000 tons of light fall on the earth each year.
DeleteI read this in one of my science books called The Intnational Geophysical Year in the 50's when I was still at school.
"Gravity is constant and it makes things drop."
ReplyDeleteYes, a Constant Acceleration (9.81 m/s^2) for all intents and purposes at the earth's surface !
This acceleration does not vary when an object with mass moves up or down or across a field and the exact same acceleration is applied to all masses whether large or small. Each discreet packet of mass making up the whole receives the same acceleration rate so that two different mass objects accelerate at the same rate.
If an object drops in a gravity field it acquires Kinetic Energy of Motion (assuming no friction losses) which is the same as the Potential Energy of Position it looses. Work will have to be done (Joules) on the object to replenish its PE lost of exactly the same magnitude in Joules.
To allow gravity to be a 'source' of energy the Work Done Joules to replenish lost PE must be less that the Kinetic Energy of motion the object acquired. The 'environment' by intervention must add additional energy to the falling object to give it higher KE than expected or conversely the 'environment' must by intervention give energy by way of an assist to the PE replenishment process so that energy's are asymmetric and don't cancel.
An out of balance wheel will release KE for use if the internal masses are shifted to position by another force x distance relationship other than gravity.
I believe that gravity is constant/unit/mass if it were not so there would be chaos in the heavens.
ReplyDeleteThe gravity wheel gets it's power from gravity alone.
The force of a falling mass is stored and released 180 degrees out of phase to lift the weights again.
This does not contravene the laws of motion because the force came from gravity in the first place.
Once and for all ... stop trying to teach what you don't know . With a mind ( and mouth ) so full of your own B.S. ( not related at all to Bessler or what he did ) how do you expect to learn anything ? I suggest you stop communicating with each other and read Bessler . I won't talk about physics or gravity or about how great of a mechanic I am but I will say I have a firm grasp of the principle that Bessler found and it's application . Everyone is so intent on impressing yet like I have said before " no turning wheels " anywhere . I will hold myself to the standard that none of you have held yourselves to , I will have " The Bessler Perpetual Mobile " .
ReplyDeleteCW
LOL!
DeleteIf you do a search on yahoo for Bessler's wheel you will get 67000 + results and yet no wheel turns on it's own thus far . Let's burden ourselves with the prerequisite of building something that actually shows a tendency to move before calling it Bessler's wheel or " what Bessler did ."
DeleteOkay!..You go first.
Delete"With a mind ( and mouth ) so full of your own B.S."
DeleteActually this sounds like CW. All B.S. and no show.
John,..I'm tired of this rudeness.It's no longer pleasant to be here.
ReplyDeleteWhen I announce my working wheel I'm gone.
Rudeness like "Go play with your blocks or something"?
DeleteI dare you to tell me where you live.
DeleteSo you are basically an aggressive a-hole, who comes here not for intelligent conversation but for perpetual egotism? Seems you are a 71 year old finster baby!
DeleteOkay fine,if dispise my input,I'm out of here.
DeleteTrevor, don't leave because of some loser. He will be gone as soon as he realizes his next sure thing is just another failure.
DeleteWell I don't know,here I thought my submissions wwere letting you guys know that the quest for a working wheel was alive and well.
DeleteWhy should I be concerned about my ego when I'm confident I have a working formula.
I was hoping that my confidence would serve to encourage John and his followers that the search for a working wheel was nearing it's end and John's efforts and belief in Bessler was not in vain,thus his ultimate vindication.
Don't let yourself be intimidated or insulted by loudmouth anons, Trevor. There are always people that enjoy belittling others - which says more about them than about you. You're more appreciated than you know.
DeleteTrevor, take heart, I think a little bit of jealousy has crept in because John has actually agreed with some part of an idea that's been posted.
DeleteI'm prepared to accept that my idea may be 100% wrong, but please,someone , give me a reasoned argument as to why.
Does it not fit with the most prominent clues, and why ?
Would gravity not act on the weights the way I think ?
Is it not "Bessler" enough ?
Or is everyone cursing, and kicking themselves because without all the techno-babble,
I've pointed out the blindingly obvious things that they've overlooked?
Even if a Gravity/P.M. wheel was to be invented, nobody could be sure it was the way Bessler built his, it would only prove the possibility of such a device.
There was more than one mechanism, my idea would only work one way, Trevor, yours may be the two way, don't let the so and so's grind you down, grind some parts instead !
Keep on, good luck again.
Stephen Burke
Thanks guys,..At least there are some of us who are really focussed on the real goal.
DeleteI just wish these anons would have the guts to identify themselves.
It is not rudeness as you mis-refer but " sound advice " .
ReplyDeleteCW
Let's burden ourselves with finding something that works rather than explaining what we don't actually know to be factual . That's why I don't talk theory . Bessler told us how his device works . If we act as if we already know the secret and yet have not produced anything we are deceiving ourselves . There is an easy way to lift a heavy weight , period point blank . We are all familiar with gravity just as a fish is familiar with water ... we live in it .
ReplyDeleteCW
Question: What does Chris, a newly hired lumberjack, and a beaver coming out hibernation all have in common?
DeleteAnswer: Pretty soon, all three of them will be cutting up a lot of wood.
Oh, you hurt my feelings with that one Anonymouse . What is it with you really ? It's starting to seem kinda like gay stalking or something .
DeleteCW
CW, I have no problem with you being gay, but I don't really think this is the proper website for you to come out of the closet. Respectfully.
Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberstalking
DeleteI predicted after tgs Jan 8 departure we would see a big increase in pet troll attacks (a nice example last blog) and anonymous insults from Collins various clueless pm cronies (nice one last blog and abundant now) as the decay of this post tg blog set in and here they are right on schedule! Things werent nearly this bad when tg was here.
ReplyDeleteGravity discussions usually go nowhere. You dont need to understand all the details of gravity to build a gravity activated wheel like Bessler. I also give applause to the efforts of CW and Trevor ('reversing polarity springs' sounds very interesting!). At least they are doing something to achieve pm and not just perpetually producing excuses. Anyone lucky enough to find pm will be working toward it everyday in everyway. He will also be spending far more time on his wheel than on the internet!
mike
Go away TG.
ReplyDeleteJC
I've decided to totally ignore the insults and not even dignify them with a response.
ReplyDeleteWhat I state about the wheel is factual and is progress.
I am not boasting but just confirming things in my own mind because it is so easy to lose track because the principle is simple but quite deep.
All I can say at this stage is;The only force available to the wheel is the dropping of the weights.
If this can be captured and stored and then released 180 degrees later then you will have perpetual motion.
How you go about it is your choice,just go according to gut feel.
I have worked it out and I feel it is the only way it can be done excluding variations of course.
Bessler said that that actual weights were the perpetual motion devices and remember as a clockmaker it was a fine piece of engineering made to precision.
Trevor, you are right, in George Biddle Airy's paper on the possibility of perpetual motion, he states that energy would need to be stored for later use.
DeleteI think it can be read on the scribd site.
Anonymous, or T.G. check your own posting where you mention the Hindu Wheel of Life,
you will find it expounds the same theory that I propose, only I managed to fit the idea in with the clues left by Bessler.
Stephen Burke
Trevor, just to show your input is appreciated, I've had a little think about your spring and stored energy, imagine this.
DeleteWe all know the equilibrium/resting place of the standard 8 weighted arm wheel.
Now, if the wheel is turned 46 degrees, say clockwise, the top left hand weight will be at it's tipping point, and it will go into free-fall, until it reaches the next rest position, if we use that free-fall to wind your reverse polarity spring, it will create stored energy. Very similar to an automatic watch.
Attach a large pendulum, by means of a ratchet, to the wheel's axle, and if the half-swing of the pendulum, when the ratchet is engaged, is enough to turn the wheel through 46 degrees, we're half way there.
I think 4 full swings of the pendulum is easily obtained, and this will give just over your 180 degree delay, at this point the 4 free-fall windings of your spring is released in one go, giving the pendulum a replenishing push, via an escapement mechanism.
Just an idea that you may not of thought of, use your skills to do with it what you will, fingers crossed.
Stephen Burke
I am actually only using two weights to prove the wheel,after which it will be increased to eight.
DeleteThe phase delay is inertial.
Great Trevor, this is how things should be, communicating this way will get the job done.
DeleteStephen Burke
Trevor,
Deletewhen the so ad so's get you down, check out these two sites.
Mechanical Principles (1930) by Ralph Steiner
Bob Potts 1996-2005b. mov
Fascinating, beautiful, maybe even inspirational.
I like them anyway, I think you might too.
Stephen Burke
Ignore and dont respond to the rude or negative or inflammitory. Be adult and show some class. Bite your lip and exercise some restraint. Be polite and dont 'rise'. Dont post things that are just critical for the sake of hurt/ridicule/knock back. All common sense ways to behave and conduct yourselves. End of lesson (should not be required really, your not children).
ReplyDeleteI would prefer nobody 'left' or stopped contributing to posts as I like to think anyone may come up with something of interest, my own personal thoughts and not directed at any individual especially.
John, going back a few articles, to the wheel smashing one, a thought crossed my mind.
ReplyDeleteAs Bessler obviously had carpentry skills, and adept at making wheels.
Would he not use the wood from the wheel to make a small hand cart?
The metal parts could have been dismantled, and stored on board, being as they were harder to make, a stout padlock securing the lid, while Bessler, and possibly an assistant slept underneath, taking turns on watch, even with tools, provisions, and a canvas drape to use over the cart to turn it into tent, the whole thing may have weighed 150lbs. or so, not too much for two men to pull, why, there was even a ready made axle!
Just a little musing.
Stephen Burke
It's possible Stephen, but in my opinion not likely. Bessler was married so he had to move wife and child to the new home, but he didn't trust anyone with his secret, not even his wife. He had no assistant other than his brother, and he was only available to help out with the big examinations/demonstrations. True he moght have kept the weights, but the axles were easily obtained, as was the rest of the wood - plenty of suitable trees around. Safer to break it up and move on. Nice idea though.
DeleteJC
John, just a little musing anyway.
DeleteI notice that none of the loudmouths have come up with a counter proposal to my idea yet. May be it's because there "hero" T.G. came up with the same one, as I was quick to point out.
If you are using the lazy tong idea, I think it may have been made in a box type design, like the old fashioned wooden clothes horses, this would lessen any twisting, and may explain the use of a cylindrical weight, which would be across two extended arms, ladder rung fashion.
To make room for this, the spring spokes need only to be fixed to the side faces of the rim, possibly onto pegs, Silver Cross pram style, I bet the youngsters don't know what that is! They can always Google it.
Stephen Burke
John, maybe I'm guilty of wishful thinking, but I think I've found two clues in the windmill plans.
DeleteStrange that it's two again though.
In the top right drawing, above the low brick wall, the horizontal noggins look like they could represent an off-set axle.
I know even now this is normal building practice, but an off-set axle is a feature of the rubber band heat engine I based my idea on.
The other possible clue is in the bottom right drawing, above the circle, (which may point to the wheel itself, as it doesn't appear to depict anything else in the drawings, unless of course, it's on a different scale) some of the diagonal braces look like the extended X's of the tong mechanism.
Again normal building practice, but not as this appears to be a top view.
Anyway, maybe wishful thinking/ over-active imagination.
Stephen Burke
Latest update: Part 1 of my project "Orffyreus Codes revealed" (the decoding of Besslers documents) are finnished. Over 1 hour of documentation-video produced with a final conclusion on how and what he was hiding! Some marvelous resaults appeared. I am now in dialog with a video/sound studio for recording the first semi-professional video-trailer. This will be used as an "door-opener" for further publishing/documentaries etc. I am also in some negotiations about a buildingproject of what was revealed. You will soon find out if Bessler was hiding and coding a true or false mechanism in his papers ;-) The trailer will not reveal the mechanism itself, but I guess it will go as far as to reveal the real secret of Ernst Elias (the added names) and some other stuff that will tease the curiosity of the viewer. I will let you know when there are other news about the progress.
ReplyDeleteThe Bessler wheel has been proven to be impossible .
ReplyDeleteNewton proved that when an apple falls from a tree to the ground it stays on the ground .
You all should have listened in school and then you would know that .
DeleteBessler wheel employed a method not included in Newton Laws, if you want to rise an apple with another identical apple you will not get perpetual motion, so you are right a Newtonian Bessler Wheel is impossible.
DeleteBut you will need to play a different game with the apple in order to avoid the Newon "spell". It will look like a gravity wheel but it will not be.
There is one way, I'm working on it.
Charly2
Bessler's wheel will prove itself and it won't require non-Newtonina Laws. Watch ths space.
DeleteJC
Charly2,
DeleteI always think of treadle operated machinery, and how once you get the heavy fly-wheel turning, all that is needed to keep the thing running is a gentle rhythmic action on the pedal. Of course the question is, how do you make the machine "treadle" itself?
I've been checking out grasshopper wooden clock escape mechanisms, maybe something there will fit in with your ideas.
Even if it doesn't it's amusing to watch.
Stephen Burke
Here's a silly little thought to lighten the mood.
DeleteThe apple falls from the tree, stays there, rots down, the seeds left behind germinate,
another tree grows, the new apples fall, and so on.
If this continues without any interference, is this perpetual motion?
Stephen Burke
I remember when i was on the BW forum maybe nearly 2 years ago and a poster , i forget who , said in one of the posts "if only bessler was here to guide us" , I read post and I got to thinking ...........
ReplyDeleteI read that post and I got to thinking...........
ReplyDeleteThat I am Johann Bessler .
DeleteIs there a name for your syndrome?
DeleteI got the idea from Bessler to play a mind game for the 300th anniversary .
DeleteI worked very hard at it . It should really be viewed as a work of art .
Ealadha, how's your stove building going?
DeleteDid you check out the FEMA wood gasifier plans?
Maybe it's not what you're looking for.
Try checking rocket stoves and homemade wood gas stoves.
They're easy to make from old tin cans, and are really economical on fuel.
Stephen Burke
Stephen
DeleteI have the soil for it , i have not built it yet, I was not well during the winter , I am going onto a macrobiotic diet and I need to cook rice and beans that can take up to an hour and a half to cook , i have looked up home made wood gas stoves and rocket stoves on the internet and I will be building one of them , so thanks for the link , also I have downloaded the FEMA wood gasifier plans .
Ealadha, I think in a past lifetime, you were a gay owl!!!
ReplyDeleteAnon,
Deleteplease, I'm suggesting other sites so that people can have a time out, chill, and maybe pick up a couple of mechanical ideas for their projects, what ever they may be.
Is that not better than squabbling?
Check Bob Potts' site it's very relaxing, and contains some really clever mechanisms.
One even looks like the Apologia wheel.
Stephen Burke
Hi Stephen, the above post is sort of an inside joke that started in the joke section at besslerwheel.com. I am just tired of Ealadaha's bizarre behavior.
DeleteJohn,..The only time this blog had any real intelligent focus was when you illiminated the anon option.
ReplyDeleteAs long as the focus is on you, intelligent conversation has indeed been illiminated.
DeleteI just stumbled upon this:
ReplyDelete...something all perpetual motionists have instinctively known for hundreds of years. The movement of the weights was due to the effect of gravity.
But never forget the effect of inertia.
Properties of matter are gravity _and_ inertia.